kulkija

Reward of Playing strictly by the book:
 
From the beginning of this open beta, it has been possible to place 1st Territory unit for free to every planet and moon. 
 
That has encouraged players to use that “rule” and all has done by playing by the book.
Now all tiles even those free ones will be taxed. Change of rules. In the real world that would be called deception.
 
- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes -

The game is going to be very empty after that.
 
There is also a potential RL money problem with NQ removing in-game assets made by the users having a subscription contract that was made before demeter.
 
Another elephant in the room, is what about all the quanta people spent buying territories?

Sad thing is that this tunnel digging problem could have been avoided or stopped just by tweaking few numbers/variables. 
- Location and size of ore-nodes 
- Yield of mining actions 
- Requirements of ore when crafting or running industry 
This rabbit hole of endless tunnels and exponentially growing database is all on NQ. 
 
- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes -

You must: 
Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Regularly create income to finance your due taxes. Pay about schemas or mining units. Regularly calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. 
 
So: 
You need to have steady income, run missions or mining units to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
To be able to run mining units yo need either to buy them from markets or craft them.  
For crafting you need to buy schemas for mining units. 
When you have your mining unis placed you need to: 
Calibrate them regularly basis 
Also, you need to collect ore and haul it to markets to sell it to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
If combining Territory taxes and Auto miners. Term “Auto miner” is not true. It is auto Grinder. Creating automatically new endless need to grind. 
Sounds more like second work than way to spend my free time. 
 
 
 

Exactly. 
I have nothing against taxes in DU as long they are collected by players or corporations. 
Players ability to collect rent, taxes and other fees is supposed to be part of RDMS (that D = Duties part of it)
 
In real world taxes are collected for creating public services such as: Military and security, justice system, healthcare, social services. Infrastructure, roads railroads etc. 
 
I do not see any kind of these services coming into play along with new taxes. 
 
Instead, I see a Heist of all times. So big that Market 15 incident were just pick a pocket type small theft. 
 
We have paid millions wroth of quanta from our tiles. Those investments were based on amount of ore in the tile, so that territory unit fee has been less or equal of what ore int the tile is wort of. 
These facts together make this property Heist net worth of probably many Billions of quanta. 
 
Proposal: 
I will be very happy to accept this theft of my property and be happy to pay taxes if Aphelia provides basic military services outside of safe zone. By protecting pipes, asteroid miners and cargo convoys from pirates.
PVP:ers don't freak out. I know this is is not gonna happen... just kidding. So therefore I'm all against territory taxes if they are collected by aphelia.
 
- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes - 
Edit: PS. Even when devs are Gods, we do have vote in this matter. It is in our real life wallet.
 

I am on the fence about the territory tax.
 
As long as we still get the 150K every 24h, I guess there will be no problem for a newb to maintain some limited amount of territories. So that aspect is fine.
 
The problem for me has more to do with paying a subscription and still being forced to log into the game and travel around to maintain your territories and buildings etc. Imagine having spent years building up an empire in DU, and then for some medical reason or whatever you are unable to login for a long time. Or maybe you simply just want to take a break from the game, and play something else for a while..
 
And perhapse it is just me. But when I am told I have to do something, it makes me not want to do it..
 
 

Until right now I had impression that I own my land (tiles)
I've bought my land from a monopoly which owns all land in DU:s universe.
 
What happens at next patch is Nationalization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Land which I own and had paid big quanta will be robbed from me.
 
 

You must: 
Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Regularly create income to finance your due taxes. Pay about schemas or mining units. Regularly calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. 
 
So: 
You need to have steady income, run missions or mining units to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
To be able to run mining units yo need either to buy them from markets or craft them.  
For crafting you need to buy schemas for mining units. 
When you have your mining unis placed you need to: 
Calibrate them regularly basis 
Also, you need to collect ore and haul it to markets to sell it to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
If combining Territory taxes and Auto miners. Term “Auto miner” is not true. It is auto Grinder. Creating automatically new endless need to grind. 
Sounds more like second work than way to spend my free time. 
 
 
 

From miners perspective:
Let's picture out how all would start when Demeter – Territory taxes and auto miners hit the fan. 
 
Day one:
First Taxes are due. You need to have Quanta reserves to pay taxes of all tiles you own. Or else they will be instantly confiscated. 
Then you need to have Quanta reserves to buy Schemas to craft your first mining units. Or need to have Quanta reserves to buy mining units. For that you need to wait for first units to become available at markets. … tick tock tick tock, next date for due taxes is closing.. Prices will be astronomical, because if you are not able to craft your mining units yon NEED to buy them before your property is confiscated. 
Then you need to place our mining units. Before that you may have change to reactivate those tiles which are past due of tax payments. 
Then you just hope that market bots are not removed, and ore prices stay high enough that you can afford the new cost of ownership for tiles. 
So, if you have more than one or two tiles total in universe, do you have enough quanta reserves to keep them before you are able to recreate your mining gameplay? 
 
-- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes --

You must: 
Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Regularly create income to finance your due taxes. Pay about schemas or mining units. Regularly calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. 
 
So: 
You need to have steady income, run missions or mining units to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
To be able to run mining units yo need either to buy them from markets or craft them.  
For crafting you need to buy schemas for mining units. 
When you have your mining unis placed you need to: 
Calibrate them regularly basis 
Also, you need to collect ore and haul it to markets to sell it to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
If combining Territory taxes and Auto miners. Term “Auto miner” is not true. It is auto Grinder. Creating automatically new endless need to grind. 
Sounds more like second work than way to spend my free time. 
 
 
 

Sad thing is that this tunnel digging problem could have been avoided or stopped just by tweaking few numbers/variables. 
- Location and size of ore-nodes 
- Yield of mining actions 
- Requirements of ore when crafting or running industry 
This rabbit hole of endless tunnels and exponentially growing database is all on NQ. 
 
- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes -

Sad thing is that this tunnel digging problem could have been avoided or stopped just by tweaking few numbers/variables. 
- Location and size of ore-nodes 
- Yield of mining actions 
- Requirements of ore when crafting or running industry 
This rabbit hole of endless tunnels and exponentially growing database is all on NQ. 
 
- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes -

You must: 
Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Regularly create income to finance your due taxes. Pay about schemas or mining units. Regularly calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. 
 
So: 
You need to have steady income, run missions or mining units to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
To be able to run mining units yo need either to buy them from markets or craft them.  
For crafting you need to buy schemas for mining units. 
When you have your mining unis placed you need to: 
Calibrate them regularly basis 
Also, you need to collect ore and haul it to markets to sell it to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
If combining Territory taxes and Auto miners. Term “Auto miner” is not true. It is auto Grinder. Creating automatically new endless need to grind. 
Sounds more like second work than way to spend my free time. 
 
 
 

From miners perspective:
Let's picture out how all would start when Demeter – Territory taxes and auto miners hit the fan. 
 
Day one:
First Taxes are due. You need to have Quanta reserves to pay taxes of all tiles you own. Or else they will be instantly confiscated. 
Then you need to have Quanta reserves to buy Schemas to craft your first mining units. Or need to have Quanta reserves to buy mining units. For that you need to wait for first units to become available at markets. … tick tock tick tock, next date for due taxes is closing.. Prices will be astronomical, because if you are not able to craft your mining units yon NEED to buy them before your property is confiscated. 
Then you need to place our mining units. Before that you may have change to reactivate those tiles which are past due of tax payments. 
Then you just hope that market bots are not removed, and ore prices stay high enough that you can afford the new cost of ownership for tiles. 
So, if you have more than one or two tiles total in universe, do you have enough quanta reserves to keep them before you are able to recreate your mining gameplay? 
 
-- Join the movement Say NO to Territory taxes --

You must: 
Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Regularly create income to finance your due taxes. Pay about schemas or mining units. Regularly calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. Calibrate your mining units. Haul ore to markets and sell it. Pay taxes of all tiles you own. 
 
So: 
You need to have steady income, run missions or mining units to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
To be able to run mining units yo need either to buy them from markets or craft them.  
For crafting you need to buy schemas for mining units. 
When you have your mining unis placed you need to: 
Calibrate them regularly basis 
Also, you need to collect ore and haul it to markets to sell it to be able to pay your territory taxes. 
If combining Territory taxes and Auto miners. Term “Auto miner” is not true. It is auto Grinder. Creating automatically new endless need to grind. 
Sounds more like second work than way to spend my free time. 
 
 
 

Kind of like banning the ownership of combustion engines in a country and telling mechanics that combustion engines exist in different countries. 
 
As to Industry being very much a part of the game, 2 months ago you could say the same thing about hand mining on planets.

What you are missing is that this is the way DU is being developed, got an issue, fix it? Noo limit something else, ban something, kill a feature. Every. Single. Time. Again.
So now we get automining and thats good, what do we loose? Building underground or partly, our owned territories, terraforming grand style, Quanta and independance as apparently NQ ownes all the land and we pay taxes to them, Mining, Mining.
 
So this was called a mix between Minecraft and Eve, I never saw it that way. Then industry got nuked, PvP is mildly said not what is expected and now mining is killed.
What is left?
 
Fly around in pewpew with no skills and drop Bots with no skills to not craft but sell ore to market bot with no skills, so you can buy overrated shizzles with no skill and then try to Magicvoxel your stuff, or just buy a NQ designed ship which all are reduced in length as larger stuff eats to much data.
 
All is being done to reduce dataflow and by that cashflow, in short there is a cashflow problem that hinders gamedevelopment that induces killing of features.
 
I propose a rename, CU Cheapass Universe.
 
CU Later

Until right now I had impression that I own my land (tiles)
I've bought my land from a monopoly which owns all land in DU:s universe.
 
What happens at next patch is Nationalization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Land which I own and had paid big quanta will be robbed from me.
 
 

Taxes for tiles is really bad idea.
To pay taxes is newer fun in real life.
It do not became fun if it is added to video game.
 
To play video game should be entertainment and create good feelings. Paying taxes does not.
 
This proposal of taxes also moves away from player driven economy.
If I have a tile, it should be me who is collecting taxes, not some super power winch owns all planets and property on them (aphelia)
 
This can be the last hit, and even worse than r0.23 was.
I'm seriously concerning about leaving this game for good.
 
*******
Edit:
To say this Territory ownership fee is a tax is wrong by definition.
Taxes are paid when there is income.
This proposal is rent.
It forces me to collect quanta for no reason... no .. no not for me..
 

Until right now I had impression that I own my land (tiles)
I've bought my land from a monopoly which owns all land in DU:s universe.
 
What happens at next patch is Nationalization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Land which I own and had paid big quanta will be robbed from me.
 
 

Until right now I had impression that I own my land (tiles)
I've bought my land from a monopoly which owns all land in DU:s universe.
 
What happens at next patch is Nationalization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization
Land which I own and had paid big quanta will be robbed from me.
 
 

I am against the pain of grinding. And i am in favor of most mining being done AFK. 
 
But this does not mean i like the idea of removing one entire feature from the game. 
I think ppl willing to mine should be able to mind, just like Empyrion. You can set autominers but you can also dig a hole and go mine. 
Empyrion also provides the solution for the growing world voxel problem. 
From time to time the tunnels dug by players close up. 
 
But while writing this reply, something occurred to me. 
What if NQ's problem isn't just the database size but also the database traffic? 
What if they found out they can reduce the database speed(and cost) if players dont keep sending voxel change updates? 

What drew to me DU originally was the mining, scanning, locating ore and the chance of coming across larger nodes of ore. What sold it for me was the manual side of it, you physically had to roll up your sleeves go find the resources, and the more time and effort you put in the greater the opportunity of reward as you could come across larger volumes and other tiers. This tied together with upgrading your ship, linked containers, storage, travelling around different planets and facing different challenges, plus do all that with your friends made it enjoyable!

95% of my time in DU is mining. I have no interest in PVP or Industry. I fund my assets through mining, by providing manufacturers and builders with resources and buy their inventions to do more mining, greater yields and better productivity!

Whilst I appreciate the issue of underground mining on planets is impacting financially and performance of the game, it just feels like rather than fixing the issue at source, the issue is simply being deleted. Rather than fixing the problems underground mining cause and adding to the game with mining units, your deleting and replacing with automation. Am sorry, but if we are talking about the game being sustainable for the long term, fix the architeture of the game as opposed to dancing around the problem.

The mining units sound interesting, but they are automated with some manual input which has been confirmed to be limited. The update also referred to ‘limiting our time engaging with mining units.’ I mean if I spend all my time mining, I now have no reward for time invested and have been limited in that regard as I no longer play the game on my terms, am being ‘pushed’ away from what I enjoying doing.

In addition, as mining units are automated and basically end up AFK mining, it opens up the gates for those with many alts and quanta accumulated to date to set up an AFK income of ore which totally takes away from the game again, as this is venturing in pay to win territory.

Ahh wait! I can still get plenty of ore from asteroids right? Well, on the basis it takes me 75-90 minutes! to get to an asteroid (and everyone else is rushing to it also), 30 minutes to get back and to come away with less ore's worth than it cost me in fuel……. No.

The safe space asteroids get rinsed, and even if you go to discovered asteroids, it’s an hour of travel for a round trip where there’s nothing but shrapnel left. Try putting 200 asteroids in safe space and on daily respawn then there might be enough to go round.

In any case, it seems this update will make fundamental changes, create its own issues on top of existing issues, ground players to planets more than likely and take away rewards for time invested.
 

I believe and allways have believed that a game should release with a full wipe. 
But NQ promised players that their beta stuff would count for release...... 
NQ was wrong in letting the money of the new subscriptions be more important than the fairness of a buggy beta game. 
 
The effects of 4 ppl exploiting the game do not only affect those 4 ppl. Their ammunition suppliers got richer because they sold the ammo at an higher price to the exploiters, their factions used their factories mounted with exploit money, their alies were defended by ships mounted with exploit money. 
Their competition was destroyed because they could not compete with an exploiter. 
How about those other 100 exploits? 
How about all those ships with staked engines? How about those players that did not use that exploit? 
How about the tutorial exploits? 
It is naive to think only 4 ppl were affected.... 
If we are to make a wipe to correct the impact of ppl using exploits there is only one alternative. A full wipe. 
 
Having said this, every wipe has to have a reason. 
This patch only requires the planet terrain to be wiped. 
 
And in my opinion, there is no point on doing a full wipe now. Bugs still exist. Exploits still exist. New features will bring new bugs and exploits. 
A full wipe should only happen if there is a technical requirment or at release. 
 
 

There's like five people who got rich from exploits.  A wipe would make a very vocal minority (of the already limited number of people who still play) happy, and the rest would leave.  It's basically a big middle finger to everyone who has put in the time and effort since the beginning of beta to build wealth.  Doing a quanta-only wipe would be even worse.  I've made money by selling ships.  If you wipe the quanta but let them keep the ships, they they basically got them for free, and I (and every other ship seller) gets screwed.