IvanGrozniy
-
Posts
186 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by IvanGrozniy
-
-
-
3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:
That makes the investors very dangerous since they could close the game, take their tech, and walk at any time.
The tech isn't all that great. All "single-shard" means is a bunch of long json strings being passes around a couple of servers. There are a number of projects working on similar systems to facilitate the single universe / persistence idea. There's nothing unique about DU's version of it.
-
8 minutes ago, LauriFB said:
I hope you guys keep on the good discussion despite all the annoying lurkers
Nah it was some good salt, might just wake up the pearl-clutchers a bit in here ?
At least endos are immune to fainting.
-
-
On 2/24/2021 at 4:51 AM, joaocordeiro said:
Not understanding how naive was to assume players would build a civilization and fail to create mechanisms to ensure that.
It is not possible to build civilization, Boo or no Boo. Not in this game. This is more of a working concept of mining / building mechanics rather than a game.
Civilization does not just arise because someone wants it to. There need to exist very specific selective pressures for it to happen. Currently none exist.. here's a bigger meditation on the topic:
Civilization is the organization of individuals into social bodies due to selective pressures.
A non-exhaustive list of the characteristics of civilization include: social structure and hierarchy, efficiency, work organization, supply of needs
A non-exhaustive list of the emergent properties of civilization includes: technological innovation, sociopolitical development, cultural development
A non-exhaustive list of selective pressures that create civilization include: resource shortage, non-uniform resource distribution, geography, weather, proximity to neighboring civilizations, war, dangerous environment, dangerous neighbors.-
Geography - Geography is a huge factor in civilization building, as it affects what type of climate an area has, what type of resources are available, what fauna and flora is is generated in a specific geography. Access to rare resources and constantly in demand resources also needs to be considered. Geography affects what kind of resources a civilization can generate and has heavy influence on its technological advancements as well as culture.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. It does not matter if you start at a base of a mountain or high up on a ridge, makes no difference if you are in the snow or on sand or underwater. -
Resource Distribution - Resources are not plentiful in the real world and they depend on geography. They are also not uniformly distributed. Certain kinds of resources are only found at specific geographical locations. A heavy concentration of a resource in one area may influence if a civilization can start in an area.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. T1 ore specifically is everywhere, and while different planets have different resources above t1, they are uniformly distributed (in a sense) with no other effects other than mostly uniform randomization.
-
Danger - This is perhaps the biggest selective pressure that gives rise to social groups that then become a civilization. Dangers from neighboring tribes will force individuals to make a group for protection. Dangers from wild beast and bad weather will force people into groups in order to survive. This gives rise to iterative development of technology that then allows the group to grow bigger, which allows them to develop more complex social organizations.
Currently, this does not exist in DU. Every planet has a safe zone around it, there are no animals, there is no weather or geographical / regional weather differences that might affect any outcomes. There is zero danger from anything other than yourself.
And on and on I can go, there is a lot here. When you want to build a civilization game, one would think you'd start thinking about first principles and go from there... you know... figure out what civilization is and what factors cause it, then try to gamify it in a way that makes sense in an mmo context, given limitations of server tech and current technologies. None of this is happening. Based on the marketing material, it seems like devs/ JC believe that civilization is cities, etc... that's not true at all.. you can build cities now but no one will use them, there's zero reason to.
It is the fault of game design or lack thereof, not the fault of the players. -
Geography - Geography is a huge factor in civilization building, as it affects what type of climate an area has, what type of resources are available, what fauna and flora is is generated in a specific geography. Access to rare resources and constantly in demand resources also needs to be considered. Geography affects what kind of resources a civilization can generate and has heavy influence on its technological advancements as well as culture.
-
On 2/14/2021 at 12:28 PM, joaocordeiro said:
Well, if you frame it in absolutes, you are right.
But once you frame this in a scale instead of absolutes, your point stops making sense.
Can Dual universe have a never ending story that can rival cyberpunk? Definitely no.Can Dual universe have a story line like WOW? Probably not.
Can Dual universe have Avatar characters that can open chats at you offering you missions and presenting events? Probably yes.
Can we have quests? Definitely yes.
So this is a scale, from "must have" to "impossible to do" with a lot of things in the middle.
But NQ failed to achieve the "must have"
So the definition of your "filled" for NQ is "none".
Quests? Stories? Wuuut... what does linear cyberpunk have to do with an mmo? Its like comparing apples to dildos
In this whole post I only talk about basic first principles that need to be really thought out and gamified in order to call DU a civilization builder.
-
Is this still going on? NQ!! Give them creative mode already! Single player Steam Early Access! Max 20 co op private servers!
- SirJohn85, Lethys, blazemonger and 3 others
-
6
-
2 hours ago, SpiceRub said:
Pretending to play pretend war games
You sir are a disgrace to the community and I have seen you repeatedly not flush the toilet. I even have logs saved with evidence!
-
Yeah DU will end well... DU Creative Mode on Steam Early Access Reeee))))
- ELX987 and le_souriceau
-
2
-
Just now, JimmyHoffasGhost said:
Cause it's fun?
I guess)
-
Why?
Just uh... give us something to fight over. No need for points and all that. If we have something to fight over, orgs will fight.- XKentX, Lethys and Maxim Kammerer
-
3
-
14 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
I jusy feel like ppl would join up this massive orgs without sharing any other resource or interact socially.
To me the beat way to form a society is to bring some out side threat.
The best way would be NPCs. But we all know that's not gunna happen.
Another way is too reward civil behaviors. Like geting tax discounts for helping players. Getting heavier taxation for killing other players.
I actually agree with some of this. The reward can be a global reputation system perhaps? Outside threat would be awesome, that would really be nice.
The issue though is that if this is a civilization building game, there is no tech tree and no civilization progression in the game. Nor do I think it is even planned
This whole post is a pipe dream lol.
-
15 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:
But how will that even work?
What will prevent ppl from creating massive orgs without any other resource share, just to bypass this system of yours?
What will prevent ppl from making their private org to play alone?
How woukd. It work with ppl. In multiple orgs? How about orgs inside orgs?
The problem you refere is real. But this is not a solition.
Ppl will not join a org for org research and if they are forced to do, they will not participate in the social aspect.
Well there are some obvious things to consider:
- org tech trees should be non-transferable. This means if you are in org A and they have researched plasma weapons, you cannot then go to org B and build plasma weapons for org B (unless for example org B asks to buy blueprints or tech from org A). This has its problems of course, but literally every social organization methodology has its strengths and weaknesses.
- the way that research is generated is when org members literally do the tasks that unlock certain branches... for example, if org A wants to focus on plasma weapons research, they will build more plasma weapons, make more plasma, build stuff out of plasma, etc... the research points system should only grow when more people do tasks that help with research in certain things. I don't even like the idea of assigning what you research, it should be organic. If you do this, then this research branch gets more skill, if you do that, then that research branch gets more skill, etc..- yes this will incentivize big orgs if they want to grow in research tech faster. To fix this, research point generation does not have to scale linearly with how many players are working on certain things that increase research points in a certain branch, it can be a logarithmic function like this:
Meaning that there is a certain sweet spot where you get max research points generation, and then beyond that the increase in point generation is not very effective. This ensures that orgs don't hoard players to research super fast.
And on and on, there are many ways to implement this and it's worth discussing I think. Thank you for brining up the points you bring up, because yes you raise valid issues.
However I still maintain that for a civilization building game, group / org level tech progression is necessary.
You must also realize that this system inherently requires a lot of content to be in the game. If I want a vast tech tree system, every branch unlocks an element / technology, it forces the game to be more content heavy rather than focused on huge universe with very limited content.
I guess, in a very loose way, you can think of this system as say, age of empires where you have technology ages.. you must do x in order to go to the next technology age y. But in DU this can be done on an org level, forcing them to be more dynamic and varied because one org cannot research everything. It should basically be impossible to do that.
-
2 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:
I understand that this game does little for the creation of a civilization.
But your solution will only makes the hole between soloplayers and orgs deeper.
And solo players will probably want a civilisation more then orgs.
Orgs can protect themselves. Solo players need laws to be protected.
Solo players wanting a civilization more than orgs... if that's exactly what you mean that's fine, I agree. If what you mean is solo players will create civilization more than orgs, that is an oxymoron.
We need to define what civilization even is to use it, and then gamify it in DU context:Civilization is the organization of individuals into social bodies due to selective pressures.
- A non-exhaustive list of the characteristics of civilization include: social structure and hierarchy, efficiency, work organization, supply of needs
- A non-exhaustive list of the emergent properties of civilization includes: technological innovation, sociopolitical development, cultural development
- A non-exhaustive list of selective pressures that create civilization include: resource shortage, non-uniform resource distribution, geography, weather, proximity to neighboring civilizations, war, dangerous environment, dangerous neighbors.
Clearly, saying that one should join an org to play the game is a problem, this is why, if you read my initial post carefully, I also suggest a separate tree for solo players and perhaps some more interesting options that org tech trees will not have. And vice versa. But if DU is to be a civilization building game, it is impossible in solo play context. You need to be working together as a group and form social hierarchy and roles. This is a key part to civilization building. I hope you see my point and why it is, I think, necessary, in order to gamify civilization progress in DU context, there must be an org tech tree. -
welp... can't delete this accidental post comment
-
2 minutes ago, Splatinum said:
A separate, distinctive tech tree for organizations sounds like a swell idea.
Something that players cannot directly invest into unless they're of the appropriate rank in a sufficiently advanced organization, providing a distinct incentive to form and progress those organizations or join existing orgs that are doing the appropriate work.
You could brainstorm forever about the particulars of such a tree, but I think the concept is a good one.
That's the beauty of it.. the scaffolding is very much obvious but the iterations are infinite. If you can get a working prototype for a system like this, you can basically feed infinite content incrementally into the game.
-
1 minute ago, Splutty said:
Not sure if I agree on the 'have to be in an org' part. I think that's actually one of the main problems. But other than that, yeah, the skill system doesn't seem particularly well thought out, fitting, or for that matter functional. (There are skills that simply don't work. At all.)
I understand that solo play needs to be a viable (not just viable but enjoyable) part of the game. I only mainly suggest advanced technologies to be unlocked only in group context because of diversification of orgs themselves.
Maybe characters can have a separate tree system that is on par with org technology and maybe even cooler in some respects. -
At its current state DU is nothing more than a game prototype. All this talk about civilization building where the game mechanics are nothing remotely about "civilization building"... and no, ability to build cities with voxels does not qualify. A city is not a bunch of buildings, it's the social aspect and the reasoning behind living in a city in the first place.
DU does not have social drivers for civilization, DU does not have selective pressures for civilization organization (no danger, no scarcity, pvp is just flying space castle sieges, no technological progression system at all)...
The common plight of big universe games (Elite Dangerous I'm looking at you) is they are going for scale, not depth. In Elite, I can basically play the whole game loop in less than 2 hours, you just have millions of planets and systems to play that game loop in. I feel like DU is going the same way. A new system will not fix the current problems as it will only make the universe larger but will not add depth. It's a common and frankly silly mistake, especially in DU context. What I am proposing here is focusing on depth, which requires a massive amount of content (what we've been asking for since... forever). You get the depth right with a fun game loop for the majority, you can then extrapolate that unto new systems.I know that this whole thing is wishful thinking at this point of the "beta" that should be an early alpha, but here goes:
A way to simulate "civilization" in DU would be to scrap this Eve talent system (some things really shouldn't be copied) and do an org-based technological progression system.
NOTE, not a skills tree, a TECH tree:- You have to be in an org to even progress in advanced technologies... Or there should be more technology branches available for group context
- Solo players should have basic technology progression available to them to facilitate solo play, and maybe a separate tech tree. Solo player tech tree should not be an afterthought, maybe it should have some cooler stuff than org tech trees. But the higher tier advanced stuff should only be in group context.
- Tech can only be progressed through when you are actively doing actions that facilitate skills /numbers that unlock a tech path (you have to play to progress)
- Vast technological skills tree that unlocks stuff on an org basis. This automatically creates groups of people that progress through technology differently and this adds a ton of variety to orgs.
- an org can choose to progress through a more electronic line of skill, while another one might focus on plasma, another one might focus more on laser tech.
- an org may choose to develop agricultural skills for resource generation, or more mining, or more building.. debatable topic here but it's not hard to imagine that with this system orgs will specialize
- As you climb further and further up the tech tree the branches have wider distance from each other, meaning that it's a lot harder to cover the whole tree (you need to specialize AS AN ORG in a certain area of technology)
- This should be a background systems with interesting skills (so you don't have to feel like you need to hit a rock X number of times to gain a better skill in idk... pooping). Skills progress organically based on actions, the difficult part is making the grind not grind for its own sake.
- You can have org waypoints (for example, some skills have multiple options and the org has to choose what type of said technology they want to unlock, they can't have both).
- IMPORTANT - this system gives devs a ton of room and opportunity to add more stuff to the tree whenever they want to, basically an unlimited system.
An example of a skill tree from Path of Exile:
Granted this is a different mmo and all that (do not comment on path of exiles, irrelevant to the topic, I'm just showing a tree, could have used a different game), but the principle remains the same. As you go out to the outer layers of the tech tree you are forced to specialize because it becomes much harder, even impossible to cover everything on the outer branches of the tree in a group context. Skill training is done organically in group context, you simply focus on what you want to train and do those activities. In my opinion this system simulates "civilization building" much better than the Eve talent system which only focuses on the individual anyway, with few skills in group context.
The main thing with this tech system is it gives devs plenty of room to add more features and technologies to the tree, and as an mmo, new content is always important.Anyway, what do you all think?
And before someone says "I specifically joined DU to avoid doing x number of stupid quests to gain a skill point", this is not what I mean by this tree. Tech should be acquired organically, not through some lame quests. Valheim for example has a really nice organic skill generation system, you don't even spec skills. You CAN'T. You automatically gain skill based only on what you do. I think this is a good system. I think it will encourage people to group up, I think it will add a ton of variety into orgs, and I think it will greatly increase specialized fun. -
2 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:
From the link above we have:
QuoteReading or modifying the game memory is forbidden.
I mean.... ReShade does not affect the game at all... and if we go by the measure of reading or modifying game memory, it uh... happens a lot... ... .. . ....... .. . . . .civilization intensifies
-
10 hours ago, blazemonger said:
AVA:
not until after release.. I'd guestimate that AVA is at least 18 months away
Or they just uh... never do AVA and just say it's impossibrue
-
-
-
7 hours ago, Ving said:
Sanctuary moon is a shithole though. If I were stuck on that bland boring place for PvE I just wouldn't play. Why do you want to force ppl who want to play a different way into playing a lesser game?
Sounds like you're a PvPer who wants to force PvE types to be victims by forcing them to play in a little corner that's so restricting and offers nothing so they cave and enter the PvP zone as fodder. Same old selfish PvP arguments.
Nah I get where you're coming from. Say, what if the new system that's coming is all pvp, no safe zones? System Zero (current system) can be a safe zone. The reason why I'm pushing for less safe zones is because DU needs danger. Civilization emerged in a very large extent due to danger, from environment and especially from neighbors. I'm not against pve or safezones, but I really don't want DU to end up with cities no one needs to be in. That is currently what is happening. You can avoid all pvp in the game entirely with ease, just don't fly in the pipe. People do everything by themselves. No need to group up to gain more forces.
So no, I don't want pvers and builders in a corner. I want what they build to matter. Without danger it does not matter.
-
Yow I get where you're coming from. But before you say paid shill drama, go to the forum post on that paid shill drama and read Naunet's responce. Just something to consider there. Apart from that yeah man I feel you. Patch .23 just made the game so much more tedious and boring. I'm only now done scripts and even that barely. Love the community though.
Stay spicy.
Estimated Timeframes?
in General Discussions
Posted
I'm keeping it in mind, how about you? I would like to encourage you to keep it in mind more than you did 2 hours ago.