Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Zen001

The Black Hole of Enthusiasm

Recommended Posts

Wondering what Dual Universe intends to do about enthusiasm. Having survived the white hot, fanatical in your face fanboyism of Star Ctizen and the sleepy, ho-hums of Battlescape, it appears finding a healthy medium is nearly impossible. The only one that seems to have come close, and I use 'close' hesitantly, is Elite Dangerous, though I stopped playing that game a long time ago so can't really say what state the community is in. 

 

 

That said, I think DEVs can go a long way in either creating enthusiasm or stifling it. They can either go the Star Citizen route: ban everyone and anything that undermines enthusiasm (ie profits); or they can go the Battlescape route and remain completely open (much to their credit!) but uninvolved in player generated content. Or is there a third way? I really do hope so because I have never been a fan of extremes - it's the middle that attracts me, where enthusiasm is appreciated and encouraged, but not subject to ulterior motives and fanaticism. Anyway, just some thoughts as I am new here and not sure how this community will evolve. But I have to say I like what I am seeing so far. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like how Battlescape has been keeping their community up to date. They have no problem informing their players that they're having difficulty implementing joysticks, or deciding which physics library to use.

 

I love this. Even if its not done the way I like it. Its 1000 times better than informing their fans they'll release a whitepaper on their controller implementation, and a YEAR later.... We havent seen it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair, I'm a backer of star citizen and I don't disagree with them banning people, you are obviously going to ban people who are a constant negative towards the project/community, regardless if it is for profit or to try and keep the peace.

 

Their problem was the unforseen hype that came from being almost completely transparent in what they are doing because people liked the ideas so much and got a little to voiceful, and the other side where people got a little to negative for no release.

Although I do think that the majority of negativity did originate from one not so 'smart' place... ha

 

Hype is a unavoidable thing, especially with DU and what they describe they are going to do. I think the only thing they can do to prevent it going out of control would be not to mention everything they have planned and stick to the sparse but concentrated Devblogs and Nyz forum posts. In the future at least when there are more people, right now they can tell us all they like as the people active I would imagine are a little more intelligent than the average bear :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I couldn't disagree more on the Star Citizen's banning practice - when Wingman gets banned you know there is a problem, and when he gets unbanned in less than 24 hours then there is even a deeper problem. And the banning of a woman for wanting to start a women's corp was one of the more egregious acts - as soon as the media picked up her story she was promptly unbanned. Anyway, I have seen lots of innocuous comments supporters have been banned over and they hardly warrant a warning let alone removal. As for Smart, he clearly had a bone to pick but that still doesn't mean some of the things he said were't true. I myself have stated that a 2017 would be a reasonable time frame for release, but of course I was attacked ruthlessly by fanboys for not towing the optimistic line...and of course I got targeted by moderators. Meanwhile my prediction is getting closer and closer to reality - and I still stand by it. 

 

Of course we can go on and on about the banning practices of Star Citizen, but enough has been said on the subject. I just hope that Dual Universe doesn't get caught up in generating hype at the expense of supporters losing their right to be heard. At the same token, I hope DU doesn't isolate itself and ignore the community as did Battlescape  - for nearly 7 years to be exact. Fortunately they now get it but it took a nearly disastrous kickstarter to wake them up. So while we can fault no transparency, we can also fault too much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very true.. and to be honest I lost interest in following star citizen a while back now, not because I thinks it's bad or anything, just bored of watching it. And when it does release I'll play it but by the time it's out its got a good chance to be old-hat. 2017/2018/2019... could come out whenever it likes for me.. I found a new game ;)

 

But yeah, we need hype for DU, but not to much, like you say, at the expense of the supporters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not so sure I will play SC when it comes out as I see better things on the horizon like Battlescape and DUAL Universe - especially DUAL Universe! This game really piques my interest more than any other I've seen in years.   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the proper way would be not actively promoting the enthusiasm as long as no stable beta version is available and delivering regular updates/goals to the community to prevent to "extreme" speculations. As long as the community is healthy that'll be fine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess it would depend on what DU's goals are and how you define 'healthy'. Because a community can be very healthy, happy and content not producing anything beneficial and supportive of DU. Of course if DU goes this route, it may make the Kickstarter less successful. Personally I think DU, should not only support enthusiasm but encourage it once they have in-game footage - never underestimate player generated content. But they should do this by actively temping down childish rhetoric, especially when used to bait others and undermine open, honest dialogue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of Star Citizen's biggest problems is how they handled public relations.  They promised everything under the moon, without thinking about the ramifications. 

 

Please be aware that when someone like Nyzaltar makes a statement, its considered marketing your product.  Your customers are watching what you say, and they will hold you to your word.  Otherwise, its false advertising.

 

Then, not answering questions because they are afraid of upsetting people.  This just strings people along who are upset due to the direction the game is taking.  The people then generate NEGATIVE publicity.  It's much easier to rip off the band aid, and get it over with.

 

So, Nut Up!  It's your project.  Build it the way you want it.  Don't promise the moon, and have the balls to inform your customers of any problems you're experiencing with development.  We'll understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi everyone!

 

This is indeed a delicate topic.

 

Hype helps a lot an indie game developer cause, but it can also undermine it in case of overhype (nobody likes to be disappointed), as much as if there is no hype at all. Hype is something very hard to control. All we can do is to keep transparency as much as possible. We think it's the best approach. True, some things might displease the community, but it's perfectly fine: If something is not appealing, we are open to discussion. It's better to know the topic as soon as possible. The earlier it is brought to the developers attention, the higher the chances are to improve it through the development cycle. There will be also times where the dev team will not change what has been planned, but in these (rare, we hope) cases, we will always give an explanation about the reasons.

 

We also don't judge practices seen on other game communities.

There are generally many hidden factors that could have lead to unfortunate decisions (as well as the fact they have been reversed). 

 

All we can say here about how we approach this topic:

- We are open to any feedback, even those negative as long as it remains constructive and polite.

- We made our forum moderation policy as clear as possible and it can be found here.

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of Star Citizen's biggest problems is how they handled public relations.  They promised everything under the moon, without thinking about the ramifications. 

 

Please be aware that when someone like Nyzaltar makes a statement, its considered marketing your product.  Your customers are watching what you say, and they will hold you to your word.  Otherwise, its false advertising.

 

Then, not answering questions because they are afraid of upsetting people.  This just strings people along who are upset due to the direction the game is taking.  The people then generate NEGATIVE publicity.  It's much easier to rip off the band aid, and get it over with.

 

So, Nut Up!  It's your project.  Build it the way you want it.  Don't promise the moon, and have the balls to inform your customers of any problems you're experiencing with development.  We'll understand.

Having supported Star Citizen for years I couldn't agree more! Also honesty is the best policy. The DEVs at Battlescape give us a progress report once a week and they are totally up front; if there is a problem they explain it; if there is an issue with choosing which external application to use they go into detail; and when a patch is late they tell us why. Result: I haven't heard a peep or complaint from anyone since they starting doing this. Sure it takes a little time away from development but DEVs do get feedback from some pretty knowledgeable individuals. Of course they need to work on generating enthusiasm but that is another issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Hi everyone!
 
This is indeed a delicate topic.
 
Hype helps a lot an indie game developer cause, but it can also undermine it in case of overhype (nobody likes to be disappointed), as much as if there is no hype at all. Hype is something very hard to control. All we can do is to keep transparency as much as possible. We think it's the best approach. True, some things might displease the community, but it's perfectly fine: If something is not appealing, we are open to discussion. It's better to know the topic as soon as possible. The earlier it is brought to the developers attention, the higher the chances are to improve it through the development cycle. There will be also times where the dev team will not change what has been planned, but in these (rare, we hope) cases, we will always give an explanation about the reasons.
 
We also don't judge practices seen on other game communities.
There are generally many hidden factors that could have lead to unfortunate decisions (as well as the fact they have been reversed). 
 
All we can say here about how we approach this topic:
- We are open to any feedback, even those negative as long as it remains constructive and polite.
- We made our forum moderation policy as clear as possible and it can be found here.
 
Best regards,
Nyzaltar.

 

My reply to Ripper touches on this but like what you are saying. Hype is a two edged sword - absolutely. I have supported two completely opposing communities: one hyped to the extreme - Star Citizen; and one that feels like Mr. Spock on Thorazine. Hopefully DU will find the middle ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the best way it can be is like this:

 

2 years before release: building fanbase, discussions, concerns, pro+contra, encoourage the forums, at this stage you can propably change things and change the direction if necessary.

 

1 year before release/open/closed beta: giving more and more information to the growing player base, screenshots, videos, dev blogs, make it interessting

 

6 months before release: give the players more than information e.g. stand alone character creator, stand alone object creator, announce pre order possibility and bonus, announce early access possibility and so on, just start the hype

 

1 week before release: HYPE it! Release trailer, growing fanbase, gain people, advertising, make it resounding throughout the world

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the best way it can be is like this:

 

2 years before release: building fanbase, discussions, concerns, pro+contra, encoourage the forums, at this stage you can propably change things and change the direction if necessary.

 

1 year before release/open/closed beta: giving more and more information to the growing player base, screenshots, videos, dev blogs, make it interessting

 

6 months before release: give the players more than information e.g. stand alone character creator, stand alone object creator, announce pre order possibility and bonus, announce early access possibility and so on, just start the hype

 

1 week before release: HYPE it! Release trailer, growing fanbase, gain people, advertising, make it resounding throughout the world

 

It's unofficially predicted as a mid 2018 release, so it's on the 2 year mark already.. :)... hope it does keep to that date..

 

Can't remember where I read that from now.

 

But your idea of how it should work I think is inevitable, other than the release of standalone devices (character/object creator) I think things like that should be kept for the alpha/beta only and not put out as a standalone but have the beta open so anyone can try them and the game together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would focus on promotion the first day footage is released. But I think what is critical to long term consistent community support is having a DEV assume the role of community/PR manager. Roles would entail providing support and encouragement to community members who promote DU; including all the things Gerald-Deemer mentioned but also info and recognition for player generated content. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would focus on promotion the first day footage is released. But I think what is critical to long term consistent community support is having a DEV assume the role of community/PR manager. Roles would entail providing support and encouragement to community members who promote DU; including all the things Gerald-Deemer mentioned but also info and recognition for player generated content. 

 

Wouldn't have to be a Dev at the end of the day, could just be someone who knows a lot about what is going on with everything. Some of the Devs might only be creating a section of the game and not fully understand other parts of it (not likely, but could happen).. I would prefer all the devs continue developing and they get someone else in to do the PR roles and such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't have to be a Dev at the end of the day, could just be someone who knows a lot about what is going on with everything. Some of the Devs might only be creating a section of the game and not fully understand other parts of it (not likely, but could happen).. I would prefer all the devs continue developing and they get someone else in to do the PR roles and such.

Was thinking the same thing but it would have to be done with at least some oversight by the DEVs. But yeah, someone from the community could assume that role. Also I hope at least one of the Alpha testers are good at making videos because this would go a long way in promoting DU - that is if DU permits video footage of alpha. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking the same thing but it would have to be done with at least some oversight by the DEVs. But yeah, someone from the community could assume that role. Also I hope at least one of the Alpha testers are good at making videos because this would go a long way in promoting DU - that is if DU permits video footage of alpha. 

 

Hi Zen001,

 

I'm pretty much here for that reason: making the "liaison" between the community and the devs.

While not being a developer of the game myself, I have some programming knowledge enabling me to understand the technical suggestions (and transmit them in a proper way). Si if you have some specific requests, just let me know and I'll pass it to the devs :)

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Zen001,

 

I'm pretty much here for that reason: making the "liaison" between the community and the devs.

While not being a developer of the game myself, I have some programming knowledge enabling me to understand the technical suggestions (and transmit them in a proper way). Si if you have some specific requests, just let me know and I'll pass it to the devs :)

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

I have a request, can I help you do your job and get access to all the nice 'hidden' information that I want about NQ/DU ?... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Zen001,

 

I'm pretty much here for that reason: making the "liaison" between the community and the devs.

While not being a developer of the game myself, I have some programming knowledge enabling me to understand the technical suggestions (and transmit them in a proper way). Si if you have some specific requests, just let me know and I'll pass it to the devs :)

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

Cool. Yeah, the only thing I can think of is having a few DEVs introduce first footage on youtube or stream it, but I am sure they already have that lined up. Other than that I can't really think of anything now but when footage comes out I'm sure the forums will be buzzing and supporters will be discussing DU on youtube and other media outlets - sure some ideas will pop up for promoting DU.  When the time comes however, I hope the DEVs take an active interest in what is being discussed and created by the community. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a request, can I help you do your job and get access to all the nice 'hidden' information that I want about NQ/DU ?... 

 

Unfortunately... I don't think this would be possible ;)

But on the topic of helping, well we are going to consider having moderators soon, if the amount of posts keeps going steadily like that :D

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately... I don't think this would be possible ;)

But on the topic of helping, well we are going to consider having moderators soon, if the amount of posts keeps going steadily like that :D

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

I disagree, I think anything is possible you just have to try harder ;).

 

As for the other lovely bit of information. That is lovely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unfortunately... I don't think this would be possible ;)

But on the topic of helping, well we are going to consider having moderators soon, if the amount of posts keeps going steadily like that :D

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

If you do go with volunteer moderators, I implore you to keep it real. Every forum I have been to has been moderated by well meaning, well-intentioned individuals, except Star Citizen. Never ever had a problem outside of SC and it is clear their policy emphasizes hype over honesty and cautious optimism. And this is done by employing moderators, in many cases rabid fanboys, who are far from objective. As long as opinions are honest,  polite and respectful, there is no reason why supporters should be targeted. Also detail information, updates can go a long way in promoting positive feedback - keeping supporters in the dark has the opposite effect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you do go with volunteer moderators, I implore you to keep it real. Every forum I have been to has been moderated by well meaning, well-intentioned individuals, except Star Citizen. Never ever had a problem outside of SC and it is clear their policy emphasizes hype over honesty and cautious optimism. And this is done by employing moderators, in many cases rabid fanboys, who are far from objective. As long as opinions are honest,  polite and respectful, there is no reason why supporters should be targeted. Also detail information, updates can go a long way in promoting positive feedback - keeping supporters in the dark has the opposite effect

 

This, for the love of all the gods, this. The issue, of course, is that rational members who post polite and respectful responses while members may not make great moderators. "Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely" absolutely applies to anyone. However, one thing that I have noticed so far is that most of the people here (maybe we should poll this) seem to be over the age of 20 (Sorry if I'm mistaken!). So this may or may not be an issue with this community. We'll have to wait it out and see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This, for the love of all the gods, this. The issue, of course, is that rational members who post polite and respectful responses while members may not make great moderators. "Absolute Power Corrupts, Absolutely" absolutely applies to anyone. However, one thing that I have noticed so far is that most of the people here (maybe we should poll this) seem to be over the age of 20 (Sorry if I'm mistaken!). So this may or may not be an issue with this community. We'll have to wait it out and see.

 

I'll +1 this, There have been plenty times I've seen someone go from the nicest person alive to a dictator in one fell swoop just because they were given 'some power' to do something. Happens all the time in games actually, was playing MC(Tekkit) not to long ago and a friend was given Admin rights. He went from being a nice person just making there creations in the world setting up factories to progress a little bit, to making profanities and offensive constructions right outside peoples bases because well.... he could now. He is a little childish at heart I guess, but AlexWright is right, Absolute power corrupts, if you are not capable of handling it that is.

 

One thing is though, if there is going to be community moderators, set out a list of rules of when and when not they should use the powers given to them as a guideline and then give them the ability to use their own common sense on top of override these guidelines if needed.

 

But again as Alex points out, everyone so far seems to be of a mature mind, so there shouldn't be any need for the forums to be moderated just quite yet, but always nice to put in preventative measures I guess. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...