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RIP Market 15

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1 hour ago, DavidDavidson said:

Sorry vandalism, seriously? Vandalism is what has been happening across the US and parts of England over the past few months. Destruction of real life property that you can't just hit Ctrl and Z to bring back. It's not like they went into the server room equipped with hammers and smashed up a server with "market 15" written on it.

Quoting the Oxford English Dictionary - Vandlism - any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good (I had a lot of stock at A15, so considered it 'good')

 

As apparently these jokers didnt steal anything (weird though they called it a HEIST on Reddit) they cant be called thieves or griefers, just a couple of player who stumbled across something they should have reported, but instead they chose to use the opportunity to piss all over the lawn and post it on Reddit for the community BEFORE they leave some lame ass post to the devs (at 7am I thought).  

I couldnt give a shit about who or what you are in RL and what you might or might not be roleplaying.  These guys where presented an opportunity to do a number of different things, they chose to smash stuff up and post it for exposure.  Well they got their exposure.  That fact people like you are scrolling through ToS agreements to prove they are 'innocent' is embarrassing.  They should man up and take it on the chin.

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1 hour ago, Moosegun said:

Quoting the Oxford English Dictionary - Vandlism - any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good (I had a lot of stock at A15, so considered it 'good')

 

As apparently these jokers didnt steal anything (weird though they called it a HEIST on Reddit) they cant be called thieves or griefers, just a couple of player who stumbled across something they should have reported, but instead they chose to use the opportunity to piss all over the lawn and post it on Reddit for the community BEFORE they leave some lame ass post to the devs (at 7am I thought).  

I couldnt give a shit about who or what you are in RL and what you might or might not be roleplaying.  These guys where presented an opportunity to do a number of different things, they chose to smash stuff up and post it for exposure.  Well they got their exposure.  That fact people like you are scrolling through ToS agreements to prove they are 'innocent' is embarrassing.  They should man up and take it on the chin.

You need to wise up. 

Firstly vandalism doesn't apply to voxels, they didn't damage or destroy something that was goodx the fact that the developers don't have a system that makes their constructs immune to permission based theft shows that their ability to create a game is elementary at best and their reaction to their fuckup has caused so much bad press that people are cancelling subs and p

others have it on their "never buy" list.

Secondly the devs stated in the TOS that permission based theft is perfectly okay, if it was a player who left their permissions completely open and someone took all their stuff calling it a heist would be fine, so why is it different if its a developer construct. 

The whole thing is an example of abuse of power. Never did the devs say their constructs were immune to permission based theft so they are just playing the "I have the power to ban you so I will" card.

Thing is, in many nations (especially EU nations) the banned players may even be able to drag the developers to court as they paid for a service which they have been denied on the grounds of "well kicking over my sandcastle is different to kicking over the sandcastle of the plebians.

I'm no lawyer, but since these people paid for a service they at the very least deserve a full refund as there is nothing in the EULA or TOS that means they can be banned for what they did. 

 

Even if that doesn't happen the amount of negative press this has generated for the game means that the developers are going to lose a whole lot more. 

SidAlpha's discord is already lighting up with this stuff, as are other consumer rights coummication networks. 

 

If only the devs had banned and stayed silent they would have been able to say they were making sure there was no cheating going on and that was the reason for the ban, however the fact they made a thread makes them look like the bad guys and they can't take that back. 

 

You can arselick all you want, but you know the devs handled this poorly. Or you just haven't seen this happen before and are ill experienced in a true shitshow. 

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Press b to pay respect.

 

Also why aren't people bored of this yet?

 

Not one person has had their mind changed, nor one person has changed their position from their first comment. 

 

I dont think there's a golden thought, on either side, that will shift people's opinions.

 

Waste of time. 

 

NQ can't/won't change their mind and don't care if you're cheerleading for them either.

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6 hours ago, DavidDavidson said:

You need to wise up. 

Firstly vandalism doesn't apply to voxels, they didn't damage or destroy something that was goodx the fact that the developers don't have a system that makes their constructs immune to permission based theft shows that their ability to create a game is elementary at best and their reaction to their fuckup has caused so much bad press that people are cancelling subs and p

others have it on their "never buy" list.

Secondly the devs stated in the TOS that permission based theft is perfectly okay, if it was a player who left their permissions completely open and someone took all their stuff calling it a heist would be fine, so why is it different if its a developer construct. 

The whole thing is an example of abuse of power. Never did the devs say their constructs were immune to permission based theft so they are just playing the "I have the power to ban you so I will" card.

Thing is, in many nations (especially EU nations) the banned players may even be able to drag the developers to court as they paid for a service which they have been denied on the grounds of "well kicking over my sandcastle is different to kicking over the sandcastle of the plebians.

I'm no lawyer, but since these people paid for a service they at the very least deserve a full refund as there is nothing in the EULA or TOS that means they can be banned for what they did. 

 

Even if that doesn't happen the amount of negative press this has generated for the game means that the developers are going to lose a whole lot more. 

SidAlpha's discord is already lighting up with this stuff, as are other consumer rights coummication networks. 

 

If only the devs had banned and stayed silent they would have been able to say they were making sure there was no cheating going on and that was the reason for the ban, however the fact they made a thread makes them look like the bad guys and they can't take that back. 

 

You can arselick all you want, but you know the devs handled this poorly. Or you just haven't seen this happen before and are ill experienced in a true shitshow. 

To cover your points:

So 'mining' doesnt apply to voxels, or 'building' or any other real world term, do you get this upset when someone 'kills' another player in pvp (I bet the term kills to death ratio must REALLY trigger you)...... no didnt think so.  Using the term vandalism as correct as any of those terms and no less valid in a virtual environment.

I get the whole ToS thing, totally get it, still doesnt get around the fact that it was a shitty / childish thing to do, however you want to look at the small print.

Denial of Service - As far as I am aware you are not required to provide a service to anyone under EU law - infact very few countries in the world enforce provision of service

This has nothing to do withy 'arselicking' I just have a different opinion to yours, sorry if that offends you.  I just get a bit sick of gamers doing bloody stupid things that mess up games I love and then blaming their actions on the developers.  The developers didnt cause this, players did.

As for community opinion, I think you will find it is a bit less one sided than you think, the majority of the videos supporting Scoopy have had as many dislikes as likes, seems to be generating him more UNSUBS and disagreement than support.  When we discussed it in our org not a single player wanted the ban lifted, they all said they would rather not have players like that in the game.  So please dont act like the devs dont have some support.

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8 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Quoting the Oxford English Dictionary - Vandlism - any activity that is considered to be damaging or destroying something that was good (I had a lot of stock at A15, so considered it 'good')

 

As apparently these jokers didnt steal anything (weird though they called it a HEIST on Reddit) they cant be called thieves or griefers, just a couple of player who stumbled across something they should have reported, but instead they chose to use the opportunity to piss all over the lawn and post it on Reddit for the community BEFORE they leave some lame ass post to the devs (at 7am I thought).  

I couldnt give a shit about who or what you are in RL and what you might or might not be roleplaying.  These guys where presented an opportunity to do a number of different things, they chose to smash stuff up and post it for exposure.  Well they got their exposure.  That fact people like you are scrolling through ToS agreements to prove they are 'innocent' is embarrassing.  They should man up and take it on the chin.

Can you also quote the word murder and how would you call destroying anothers player ship you genius? 

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1 hour ago, carijay766 said:

Can you also quote the word murder and how would you call destroying anothers player ship you genius? 

Actually the word 'kill' is widely used within pvp, kill to death ratio for example. Explain how that is any different. Anyone who has played the amoung us will have certainly murdered plenty of people. 

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6 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

Actually the word 'kill' is widely used within pvp, kill to death ratio for example. Explain how that is any different. Anyone who has played the amoung us will have certainly murdered plenty of people. 

And did they get permabanned for that? I mean we all agree murder is way worse than vandalism. It's common sense. And murder (killing a player) plus vandalism (destroying their ships) in combination is the worst by that logic. 

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34 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

I mean we all agree murder is way worse than vandalism. It's common sense. And murder (killing a player) plus vandalism (destroying their ships) in combination is the worst by that logic. 

Area you talking about real life or game world? xD You can't kill anyone in most games if we go by real world meaning of that word. Even perma death in mmos is not even close to be equal to murder irl. This whole debate is lacking common sense, mixing irl terms with gaming terms. <facepalm> 

Worst case you can vandalize player ship or base. So one/few player are upset. Or you could vandalized market - so anyone who is using/would use this market is upset. Assumption: more people will or want to use Alioth market than any base/ship, maybe excluding biggest communist corporations. All the time we are talking about abusing mechanics not intended for that purpose - so exploits and bugs.
Now - you are using argument -> lesser evil done without consequences so bigger evil should also have no or small consequences. Thats counterproductive - and i'm really sugarcoating words here - because it encourage further abuse of bugs and exploits. If you want to be pissed - imho you should be pissed that lesser evil has no consequences because they clearly shown they are able to apply consequences for player stupidity. Current soft hand policy is imho responsible for what happen to the market.  On the side note - it doesn't even to be actual policy, its enough if its perceived that way.

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I'm just applying Mooses flawed logic in his arguments.... Thats my point the comparisons dont make any sense as taking apart construct with open RDMS are absolutely within the intended game mechanics therefore not an exploit or bug abuse. Its completely irrelavant if its vandalism, murder or whatever if its not breaking the game mechanics.

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10 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

I'm just applying Mooses flawed logic in his arguments.... Thats my point the comparisons dont make any sense as taking apart construct with open RDMS are absolutely within the intended game mechanics therefore not an exploit or bug abuse. Its completely irrelavant if its vandalism, murder or whatever if its not breaking the game mechanics.

What flawed arguments??? Just pointing out that the use of the word vandalism is correct in this instance, nothing more lol.  Got no idea at all what you are ranting about.

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13 minutes ago, carijay766 said:

taking apart construct with open RDMS are absolutely within the intended game mechanics therefore not an exploit or bug abuse

Market being open to RDMS is a bug - this is not intended way for program(game) to work. Player rdms being open by mistake is not a bug - as this is intended way for program (game) to work. 
So its bug abuse. Yes - you need to read developers mind. Or apply common sense. Anything else?

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17 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Market being open to RDMS is a bug - this is not intended way for program(game) to work. Player rdms being open by mistake is not a bug - as this is intended way for program (game) to work. 
So its bug abuse. Yes - you need to read developers mind. Or apply common sense. Anything else?

Forgetting to set the permissions is a retard mistake by the developers. 

Are you going to call every mistake a bug now?

If you get drunk and piss your bed, was it a bug? 

They didn't need to "read developers mind" they read the TOS and it clearly states that permission based theft is totally permissible. 

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33 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

Forgetting to set the permissions is a retard mistake by the developers. 

Are you going to call every mistake a bug now?

If you get drunk and piss your bed, was it a bug? 

They didn't need to "read developers mind" they read the TOS and it clearly states that permission based theft is totally permissible. 

Bug in software engineering is by definition a developer/programmer mistake. Or in this case game developer. So yeah, I have been calling, I am calling and I will be calling every developer mistake a bug.

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18 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Bug in software engineering is by definition a developer/programmer mistake. Or in this case game developer. So yeah, I have been calling, I am calling and I will be calling every developer mistake a bug.

Here is the definition for a software bug:

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. ... A program that contains many bugs, and/or bugs that seriously interfere with its functionality, is said to be buggy (defective). "

But the market didn't behave in unintended ways, forgetting to set the permission means that it has the intended (as the developers stated themselves that it is intended and 100% your fault if you fail to set the permissions correctly) consequence of people being able to take your stuff. 

The definition doesn't say:

"When Jaques has too much cheese and wine and passes out before forgetting to set the permissions, this is a bug" 

 

No definition for the word bug fits what you are calling it. I guess for you the sky is magenta and you call bicycles two wheeled unicycles. 

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1 minute ago, DavidDavidson said:

Here is the definition for a software bug:

"A software bug is an error, flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways. ... A program that contains many bugs, and/or bugs that seriously interfere with its functionality, is said to be buggy (defective). "

But the market didn't behave in unintended ways, forgetting to set the permission means that it has the intended (as the developers stated themselves that it is intended and 100% your fault if you fail to set the permissions correctly) consequence of people being able to take your stuff. 

The definition doesn't say:

"When Jaques has too much cheese and wine and passes out before forgetting to set the permissions, this is a bug" 

 

No definition for the word bug fits what you are calling it. I guess for you the sky is magenta and you call bicycles two wheeled unicycles. 

flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result
Open RDMS in market in a Dual Universe that causes it to allow player to enter build mode on market.
Actually colored it. 

Also please pay attention (assuming you copied it from wikipedia) to first sentence of second paragraph. 
"Most bugs arise from mistakes and errors made in either a program's design or its source code...." 

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10 minutes ago, Elrood said:

flaw or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result
Open RDMS in market in a Dual Universe that causes it to allow player to enter build mode on market.
Actually colored it. 

Also please pay attention (assuming you copied it from wikipedia) to first sentence of second paragraph. 
"Most bugs arise from mistakes and errors made in either a program's design or its source code...." 

But this wasn't a mistake in the program's design or source code. Forgetting to set permissions is not a mistake in the code, it is a mistake made by the person setting the permissions. 

What part of that do you not understand? 

 

If you left your car running overnight (assuming said car is key started and doesn't automatically turn the engine off when stopped) then found out that the fuel tank was empty would that be a bug? Or would that be user error

Or if you forget to turn off a high wattage electric heater for few days then find out that your electric bill has doubled, would that be a bug? 

 

User error:

"A user error is an error made by the human user of a complex system, usually a computer system, in interacting with it. "

 

Is English your first language, as you don't seem to understand English fundamentals very much. I could understand that if English isn't your first language but if English is then you probably need your head examined for.... bugs. 

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21 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

User error:

"A user error is an error made by the human user of a complex system, usually a computer system, in interacting with it. "

In that case you are classifying NQ staff as a user. For me anyone who work on developing the game - so level designers too - are developers. So its developer misconfiguration - as its not according to design/intent - ergo bug. 
Now its also a user error - on that I agree and it was never my intention to deny that. But I don't see an issue. User error and bug are not mutually exclusive terms.

 

 

21 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

If you left your car running overnight then found out that the fuel tank was empty would that be a bug? Or would that be user error

If you are car company, had to design car with autopilot which stops when near a wall and than user crashed into wall with window, is it a bug or user error?
Your example is about user doing stupid thing. 
My is of product which is not working as intended. 
Which case m15 is? Imho second. 
 

21 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

Is English your first language, as you don't seem to understand English fundamentals very much. I could understand that if English isn't your first language but if English is then you probably need your head examined for.... bugs. 

Than, please educate me. What English fundamentals I don't understand "very much"?

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52 minutes ago, Elrood said:

In that case you are classifying NQ staff as a user. For me anyone who work on developing the game - so level designers too - are developers. So its developer misconfiguration - as its not according to design/intent - ergo bug. 
Now its also a user error - on that I agree and it was never my intention to deny that. But I don't see an issue. User error and bug are not mutually exclusive terms.

 

 

If you are car company, had to design car with autopilot which stops when near a wall and than user crashed into wall with window, is it a bug or user error?
Your example is about user doing stupid thing. 
My is of product which is not working as intended. 
Which case m15 is? Imho second. 
 

Than, please educate me. What English fundamentals I don't understand "very much"?

First on the English language. 

A user is anyone who uses a system. This includes developers. The word you would be looking for is customer. 

As for user error and a bug being mutually exclusive, they are. If you are chopping up some onions and happen to slice your fingers off then the knife didn't have a bug, you used it incorrectly as such you aren't going to go to the knife company and demand they compensate you for your lost fingers because the knife had a "bug", if you did they would laugh you out of the room while telling you that  you didn't take the personal responsibility to check that your fingies weren't about to get chopped off and that their knife was working as intended. 

 

We are not talking about autopilot. The developers forgot to set the permissions to private. Forgetting to do something is not the equivalent of an automated system failing, because there was no automated system in place, the system required the developers to set the permissions after moving the market, as such they made a mistake which caused all of this to happen. 

The permission rules did work as intended. To use your autopiloting car analogy it's like getting into the car, forgetting to turn the autopilot on, crashing your car then blaming it on the car company. 

 

Now before you say that user error applies to end users only and developers cannot be end users, since the developer was using a system that they had set up, or another developer had set up they still fall under the definition of an end user as they were using the system at that time. Even someone who designs a system can still fall under the definition of end user if they are using the system. Think Bill Gates using Windows back when he was still on the design and development team in the late eighties, that would make him both a developer of his product and an end user. 

 

Edit: That Bill Gates analogy isn't the best, but devs using their own dev tools are still users of the program (dev tool) they made. 

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I love your knife analogy. Its indeed funny to think about. Some people are trying to make it look like cutting your own finger is the same as some ELSE breaking into your knife store with TNT and stealing all your knifes then reselling these knifes on amazon to make a profit.

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58 minutes ago, Elrood said:

In that case you are classifying NQ staff as a user. For me anyone who work on developing the game - so level designers too - are developers. So its developer misconfiguration

3 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

A user is anyone who uses a system. This includes developers.

Actually you are right you know? I even intentionally used that fact. Thing is - there is some stuff - like making bugs - developers as a subset of users can do, but not every user (like customers) can. Kind of core of my argument. Thank you for agreeing on that point with me.

3 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

The word you would be looking for is customer.

Nope, customers weren't important.  Customers is subset of users who do not produce bugs out of mistakes. By talking about developers I wanted to exclude customers. So kind of worked, didn't it? 

 

11 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

We are not talking about autopilot. The developers forgot to set the permissions to private. Forgetting to do something is not the equivalent of an automated system failing, because there was no automated system in place, the system required the developers to set the permissions after moving the market, as such they made a mistake which caused all of this to happen. 

The permission rules did work as intended.

 

So RDMS worked correctly. Yeah. No one ever said anything else as far as I know, including me. 
Market 15 didn't work correctly.  The same way RDMS is a subsystem inside DU, M15 and every other market is another subsystem inside DU, which were designed, prototyped, coded and configured by NQ staff, although mostly using different tools. End result was part of whole system which was not working as intended - ergo was bugged. Same way talents are bugged. Same way tutorials are bugged. 
Your knife analogy, as good as it is when describing players rdms errors - I don't think has any meaning in M15 case.

 

24 minutes ago, DavidDavidson said:

Now before you say that user error applies to end users only and developers cannot be end users, since the developer was using a system that they had set up, or another developer had set up they still fall under the definition of an end user as they were using the system at that time. Even someone who designs a system can still fall under the definition of end user if they are using the system. Think Bill Gates using Windows back when he was still on the design and development team in the late eighties, that would make him both a developer of his product and an end user. 

Oh but I fully agree with you here.... This is precisely the reason why I said earlier that user error is not - cannot be - mutually exclusive with bug. 

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Hey folks,

 

I've just been a bit trigger happy and hid the nice words about moderation being trigger happy and staff's life quality insults. Just as a reminder: if people want to report me or any other moderator and do so here on the forums, it's rather apparent they haven't read the rules or forgot about them.

 

If you disagree with a moderator or employee's actions, do not discuss or challenge the matter in forum posts. Send an e-mail to forum@novaquark.com, and be sure to include your forum handle (name displayed on the forum), but NOT your password, and clearly state your concerns.

 

 

Regarding the attack by @carijay766 on @Moosegun as well as the following engagement I've decided to close this thread since it's too much trouble to clean up and apart from pointless fighting I don't think there's anything of value here anyways. In case you disagree: please see above.

 

Sincerely

Mondlicht

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