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EVE Online's $1,000,000 Battle Bust and What it Means for Dual Universe

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Will it make a good story if people pull off some amazing task, flying there for days with their crews and thousands of hours of preparing pay off when they take a gate? Yeah ofc - for nerds who play the game.

 

For the general media all that counts is: Farther! Bigger! Better! 

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On 14/02/2018 at 5:23 PM, Lethys said:

For the general media all that counts is: Farther! Bigger! Better! 

That's quite simply because that's what the "general public" wants !

 

The general public is not interested in EVE or DU, but they'll eagerly read the shocking news that $500K worth of "assets" were destroyed in a video game !

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Long-time(though not current) Eve player here. Don't forget that, unlike DU, SC, and, to an extent, ED, Eve ships have no interiors. You point and click to fly, mostly, with some manual acceleration control. So, things are much simpler, which is why they could even THINK of attempting a fleetfight with 6k players. Now, here in DU, there's much more going on, so we won't see fleets that large. Probably ever.

 

Thing is, we won't have to.

 

when dealing with ships with interiors, multicrew, etc, even a 25v25 fleet action will give you the same feeling, and will be MUCH more visually impressive.  So, we'll get that experience..and having said THAT, DU has the benefit of better tech and a ground-up approach that supports this kind of thing. And it only gets better from here. This was not available to CCP when they started. They're in a bind.

 

My (unsolicited) advice to CCP: Time for EVE 2.0. A game that matches what SC,DU,ED are doing, and attempts to surpass it, because, we are not going back to the current EVE model. It's dead.

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29 minutes ago, GhostProtocol said:

Long-time(though not current) Eve player here. Don't forget that, unlike DU, SC, and, to an extent, ED, Eve ships have no interiors. You point and click to fly, mostly, with some manual acceleration control. So, things are much simpler, which is why they could even THINK of attempting a fleetfight with 6k players. Now, here in DU, there's much more going on, so we won't see fleets that large. Probably ever.

 

Thing is, we won't have to.

 

when dealing with ships with interiors, multicrew, etc, even a 25v25 fleet action will give you the same feeling, and will be MUCH more visually impressive.  So, we'll get that experience..and having said THAT, DU has the benefit of better tech and a ground-up approach that supports this kind of thing. And it only gets better from here. This was not available to CCP when they started. They're in a bind.

 

My (unsolicited) advice to CCP: Time for EVE 2.0. A game that matches what SC,DU,ED are doing, and attempts to surpass it, because, we are not going back to the current EVE model. It's dead.

All what you said is true with but one "but": it must be implemented in DU and it should work as intended...

 

 For the time being the "dead" EvE has thousands of players that are logging into it each day, play it and are pretty much alive :) and DU is a lot of fantasies, a bit of promises from developer and a wagon of speculations ;)

 

it may happen that even 25v25 will be impossible due to various reasons or we can see 25 000 v 25 000 batles and it will work out somehow though it did not work in other games - but may be NQ are really that good and they'll make revolution in game industry. We can only speculate, guess and argue now and none of this can be proven yet. Not until the game will be ready for a full load like open beta at least.

 

Eventually people have different expectations and goals in game. For example I don't care if there will be 5v5 or 500v500 fights. Those huge battles might be interesting to participate once or even see a video report from safe distance. But they are not the thing that "makes my watch tick". I am more interested if I'll be able to walk in a city without lag when there'll be multiple constructs and several players online... will I be able to to fly around a big space station or a fleet of them and some smaller spaceships without having lags and loosing control of my ship... will I be able to do things that are interesting to me without facing bugs, lag and so on.... Others might be interested in other thing and all in all the game success will depend on how many people will see something in this game that will attract them and how good those functions will really work.

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On 19/02/2018 at 2:02 PM, GhostProtocol said:

Long-time(though not current) Eve player here. Don't forget that, unlike DU, SC, and, to an extent, ED, Eve ships have no interiors. You point and click to fly, mostly, with some manual acceleration control. So, things are much simpler, which is why they could even THINK of attempting a fleetfight with 6k players. Now, here in DU, there's much more going on, so we won't see fleets that large. Probably ever.

 

Thing is, we won't have to.

 

when dealing with ships with interiors, multicrew, etc, even a 25v25 fleet action will give you the same feeling, and will be MUCH more visually impressive.  So, we'll get that experience..and having said THAT, DU has the benefit of better tech and a ground-up approach that supports this kind of thing. And it only gets better from here. This was not available to CCP when they started. They're in a bind.

 

My (unsolicited) advice to CCP: Time for EVE 2.0. A game that matches what SC,DU,ED are doing, and attempts to surpass it, because, we are not going back to the current EVE model. It's dead.

I've got to go with a conservative anticipation of what NQ can achieve. The density problem is the big one. I'm going to guess however that having crew inside ships might end up boosting overall participant numbers however (in theory this makes sense as it cuts down the N^2 interactions: those in the ship can be contained within their own actor cell things not interacting with the outside) ie NQ have said a ship won't fragment, once it reaches "destruction damage amount" the whole thing blows up taking all those on board with it! So all the pew-pew from say 20-50 ppl inside one ship is just one big object with the same position but variable firing.

 

However overall ship numbers, it will be interesting to see how much it can handle. I guess making smaller ships more "like flying paper origami in space" (LOL!)  in large fleet battles thus eliminating them before the major density issue rears it's ugly head (both  longer range and more power and unequal shielding forces)  is a game design decision based itself off easing the networking load ?!

 

Now lots of small aircraft buzzing around, let's say, you're back to 1 player per 1 ship, AND importantly less weapons firing ie a couple per ship ONLY, will then help even if more positions to calculate. So again there's some upside to again help the network. And remember mixing ships, again going on assumption upon assumptions, those "flying paper origamis" quickly knocked out of the equation...

 

And all that said above, still expect conservative numbers for all the invisible reasons before game itself. Still like you say even 25v25 is going to feel visceral, epic and I hope sheer wonder of space opera realized. Also as you say graphically/visually the 3D Objectness of the experience (along with: "I built her myself all the way from when she was just a single atom (voxel) in my eye!")

 

Yeah CCP are stuck with tech from early noughties. THAT was one of the things JC et Amis all mentioned about the current time and tech for DU. That said CCP should hold steady with EVE, will continue to be a great game with or without different games being made, advice is easy to give, but CCP have not been able to make a subsequent new stellar (pun) mmo: Because it's one of the hardest genres/industries.

On 19/02/2018 at 3:18 PM, Kirtis said:

All what you said is true with but one "but": it must be implemented in DU and it should work as intended...

 

 For the time being the "dead" EvE has thousands of players that are logging into it each day, play it and are pretty much alive :) and DU is a lot of fantasies, a bit of promises from developer and a wagon of speculations ;)

 

it may happen that even 25v25 will be impossible due to various reasons or we can see 25 000 v 25 000 batles and it will work out somehow though it did not work in other games - but may be NQ are really that good and they'll make revolution in game industry. We can only speculate, guess and argue now and none of this can be proven yet. Not until the game will be ready for a full load like open beta at least.

 

Eventually people have different expectations and goals in game. For example I don't care if there will be 5v5 or 500v500 fights. Those huge battles might be interesting to participate once or even see a video report from safe distance. But they are not the thing that "makes my watch tick". I am more interested if I'll be able to walk in a city without lag when there'll be multiple constructs and several players online... will I be able to to fly around a big space station or a fleet of them and some smaller spaceships without having lags and loosing control of my ship... will I be able to do things that are interesting to me without facing bugs, lag and so on.... Others might be interested in other thing and all in all the game success will depend on how many people will see something in this game that will attract them and how good those functions will really work.

Fleet battles are going to be... a "flag-ship" (pun) for DU: It's one of a few areas that will be UNIQUE (USP) to MMOs and a strong pull for customers to jump through the many hoops that MMOs are saddled with compared to other genres. It's also showcasing tech implementation that again: "Only Here" (for now). Again a big pull if successful.

 

Agree, all that works of the basis the bread & butter (or DU equivalent) of performance being invisible non-problem for regular gameplay enjoyment and experience and enjoying the virtual tourism effect that a Single Shard World has to offer (!!). Not to mention the latent creativity of building...

 

I think taking a small ship and flying around a huge spacestation or "star-destroyer" or fleet "at anchor" will be a sight to behold even without any "action". And all player built too... crazy to even expect it feels like. When did I just wake from cryosleep?

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On 2/19/2018 at 2:02 PM, GhostProtocol said:

Long-time(though not current) Eve player here. Don't forget that, unlike DU, SC, and, to an extent, ED, Eve ships have no interiors. You point and click to fly, mostly, with some manual acceleration control. So, things are much simpler, which is why they could even THINK of attempting a fleetfight with 6k players. Now, here in DU, there's much more going on, so we won't see fleets that large. Probably ever.

 

My (unsolicited) advice to CCP: Time for EVE 2.0. A game that matches what SC,DU,ED are doing, and attempts to surpass it, because, we are not going back to the current EVE model. It's dead.

 

I think you underestimate the amount of data and events that needs to be shared between all players in the system.. By a lot..

 

And EVE has been dead for about 15 years apparently.. Frankly I'd welcome any other space MMO to come close in sheer size, depth, possibilities and player numbers. Frankly I would not be able to call out any others.

 

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6 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I think you underestimate the amount of data and events that needs to be shared between all players in the system.. By a lot..

 

 

He wasn't referring to the fc, tc, tactics, scouting or whatever. He simply stated that Du is MUCH more complex to control than eve. There's no alignment, warp to, jump button. In eve you align automatically, warp and jump when pressing the Button and then just orbit (hey, another Button) someone. 

Controls in eve are boring AF and that's why there will be much much more going in in Du as all of this hast to be done manually. 

 

Deep tactics, good gameplay and interesting fights in eve aren't on the table here - those are only losely linked to the boring controls

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Both of you really do not understand what goes in with regards to server-client communication in EVE in a system like in the last huge fight which is what I am referring to.

 

ALso, anyone who thinks EVE is about target-orbit-hit F1 shows a lack of knowledge on the game. Manual piloting is an important part of the game, so is fleet tactics and strategy.

I find the notion some have that DU will be all 'by hand' with no automation or ability to set and follow a course/route to a specific point funny and silly. While it may be these will be part of how players set up their ship scripting instead of NQ providing these as standard or as an add-on (which I actually expect to happen), te functionality will be available.

 

Lastly, why do some seem to persist in expecting NQ develop a nice game for nerds with programming skills which really have nothing to do with the game play and frankly will scare/chase away a good number of potential players is beyond me. Maybe it's the desire to be the in game Bill Gates who controls the way ships are flown, I don't know.

 

NQ will cater to their biggest possible customer base that fits their vision, thus they will provide for flight mechanics that allow this group to come in and stay. They are not in business to cater to nerds, they are in the business of making money buy selling access to a hopefully great game.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

Both of you really do not understand what goes in with regards to server-client communication in EVE in a system like in the last huge fight which is what I am referring to.

 

ALso, anyone who thinks EVE is about target-orbit-hit F1 shows a lack of knowledge on the game. Manual piloting is an important part of the game, so is fleet tactics and strategy.

I find the notion some have that DU will be all 'by hand' with no automation or ability to set and follow a course/route to a specific point funny and silly. While it may be these will be part of how players set up their ship scripting instead of NQ providing these as standard or as an add-on (which I actually expect to happen), te functionality will be available.

 

Lastly, why do some seem to persist in expecting NQ develop a nice game for nerds with programming skills which really have nothing to do with the game play and frankly will scare/chase away a good number of potential players is beyond me. Maybe it's the desire to be the in game Bill Gates who controls the way ships are flown, I don't know.

 

NQ will cater to their biggest possible customer base that fits their vision, thus they will provide for flight mechanics that allow this group to come in and stay. They are not in business to cater to nerds, they are in the business of making money buy selling access to a hopefully great game.

well if you rly think that "warp to", "align", "orbit and fire mining laser then go afk", "click every 5min to dump ore into orca" is harder than doing everything from first person and with more complex controls - scan resources, find resources, mine them, build shafts, get material out of there- then I just can't help you.

 

Manual piloting is important in eve - just not in a bigger fleet.

 

and as you will obviously answer this - I won't anymore as we obviously disagree here.

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2 hours ago, Lethys said:

well if you rly think that "warp to", "align", "orbit and fire mining laser then go afk", "click every 5min to dump ore into orca" is harder than doing everything from first person and with more complex controls - scan resources, find resources, mine them, build shafts, get material out of there- then I just can't help you.

 

Manual piloting is important in eve - just not in a bigger fleet.

 

and as you will obviously answer this - I won't anymore as we obviously disagree here.

When you can't maintain your argument.. change it.. and casually ignore any counter arguments.

You have either been involved i boring uninteresting fleets or never have and are just talking from when you heard.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

When you can't maintain your argument.. change it.. and casually ignore any counter arguments.

You have either been involved i boring uninteresting fleets or never have and are just talking from when you heard.

Never changed it, but hey: as i said, i just disagree

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On 2/21/2018 at 6:23 AM, blazemonger said:

When you can't maintain your argument.. change it.. and casually ignore any counter arguments.

You have either been involved i boring uninteresting fleets or never have and are just talking from when you heard.

You basically accused us of saying things neither of us said. I understand Eve mechanics just fine. I never said Eve was dead, just that the MODEL Eve currently is using is dead. We're moving on from it. We are, and I hope CCP steps up. But we have DU/SC/ED plus whatever is in the pipeline from other devs, so, it's fine if they don't step up.

Good times for gamers :)

 

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Only game concept potentially able to meet EVE is DU right now.  Both SE and ED are very different. ED is basically trucksimulator in space (nothing wrong with that) and SC is... well something with spaceships mostly.

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2 hours ago, GhostProtocol said:

You basically accused us of saying things neither of us said. I understand Eve mechanics just fine. I never said Eve was dead, just that the MODEL Eve currently is using is dead. We're moving on from it. We are, and I hope CCP steps up. But we have DU/SC/ED plus whatever is in the pipeline from other devs, so, it's fine if they don't step up.

Good times for gamers :)

 

I think your information may not be that great if you do not mind me suggesting? How much do you know about SC? Just read the last dev communication on networking ["Obviously this is a much simplified implementation"'] and where they are with that... after 6yrs.

 

There's nothing close to CCP's EVE apart from DU (currently that I'm aware of). And again DU is not even close - currently - for obvious reasons.

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15 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Only game concept potentially able to meet EVE is DU right now.  Both SE and ED are very different. ED is basically trucksimulator in space (nothing wrong with that) and SC is... well something with spaceships mostly.

If I remember correctly I don't think SC and ED or set up to handle a massive number of players , ships , combat , etc. like EVE and DU and if that's correct you will never see record numbers of people gathering to do those things in games !

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I was never an EvE expert, nor did I take part in huge battles.

 

But I'd think Star Citizen (SC) still needs to rely on "relatively massive numbers of players" eventually. While it's not the case now, I do clearly remember statements of eventually boosting player numbers per local instance and them even having done so in the last few major versions.

 

This is required if we tend to look at capital ships that may, themselves, house dozens of crew members and maybe more (marine / attack force, guests, etc). Maybe we'll never get to see some of the huge battle of EvE due to resources or limits, but I so far assume we will see relatively huge battles later on anyway with better tech and more if we ever expect to see up to a handful of capital ships engage each other. And then come additional single-seat fighters and other small ships.

 

Of course you are correct in your relation saying "...like EvE and DU". But it won't be "a bunch of people" in turn, either :P

 

Or it would be pretty unsatisfying for all those capital ship users to be restricted to relatively smaller instances in that sense.

 

 

-----

 

On another note, frankly, I think it's a good time to be alive (if you can expect at least an additional 2-3 decades of life time, that is). Tech gets better and allows for more options. I so far see no real end to the "development tree" and games get bigger and allow for more. What might now be exotic or "within relative reach" might be standard for sandbox games and the like in a few decades. Time will tell, but eventually I can see games like EvE and DU only increase in scale.

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26 minutes ago, Warden said:

I was never an EvE expert, nor did I take part in huge battles.

 

But I'd think Star Citizen (SC) still needs to rely on "relatively massive numbers of players" eventually. While it's not the case now, I do clearly remember statements of eventually boosting player numbers per local instance and them even having done so in the last few major versions.

 

This is required if we tend to look at capital ships that may, themselves, house dozens of crew members and maybe more (marine / attack force, guests, etc). Maybe we'll never get to see some of the huge battle of EvE due to resources or limits, but I so far assume we will see relatively huge battles later on anyway with better tech and more if we ever expect to see up to a handful of capital ships engage each other. And then come additional single-seat fighters and other small ships.

 

Of course you are correct in your relation saying "...like EvE and DU". But it won't be "a bunch of people" in turn, either :P

 

Or it would be pretty unsatisfying for all those capital ship users to be restricted to relatively smaller instances in that sense.

 

 

-----

 

On another note, frankly, I think it's a good time to be alive (if you can expect at least an additional 2-3 decades of life time, that is). Tech gets better and allows for more options. I so far see no real end to the "development tree" and games get bigger and allow for more. What might now be exotic or "within relative reach" might be standard for sandbox games and the like in a few decades. Time will tell, but eventually I can see games like EvE and DU only increase in scale.

We've already seen ~1,000 bots on the landsurface. I'm sure NQ's prototyping with the server tech also did some other scenario load balancing concerning spaceship construct density of clients.

 

So,

 

1. We'll see mass combat of avatars on land and in bases - that's already a big positive right there.

2. We'll see some order of number of spaceships in close density fighting as well as lower density of higher numbers with suitable performance.

3. These will have crews adding more clients.

4. The "price" is going to be slower combat abstracted to a higher level.

 

That's still a stretch and a long shot from EVE, but then it does NOT even have to fully emulate EVE as a ship only type of game. It's doing a lot else different for different ends and different experiences.

 

Another good thing someone already mentioned is, even if the combat is not that great, it will visually look "Spaceship Du Look!" (ever afterwards to be known as "Spaceship Deluxe" SD) good, given the 3dness of it all, so even at the graphical and least significant level  (imo) it will still have a bonus to it. We're going to see some snaps of fleet battles that I feel will sell the imagination of the game very well.

 

This segues onto SC's ace: the graphical fidelity. But that's also it's biggest achillies heel along with the engine and gameplay choice: Those RESTRICT massively what it will end up doing with respect to networking. Oddly enough DU will end up producing the space opera scenes that LOOK SO GOOD even when every one seems so duped into thinking you need high fidelity graphics to look good: Wrong.

 

Anyway back to DU: Even "just" 25 spaceship vs 25 ALL player built and design differences is going to be rewarding on that basis let alone sheer numbers up or down.

 

The big argument is not numbers hence: It's how to make crew in ships fun gameplay: That's the big one and again it's challenging but I think the rewards are huge if it can be made fun. I think it comes back to:-

 

1. Avatar battles planetside and underground / buildings or inside ships and space-stations

2. Small constructs or atmospheric constructs land and air in planets

3. Orbital constructs much larger crew requirement - Inter-planetary

4. Inter-stellar constructs and truly large spacestation structures etc

 

Crews will be one section of this "slice". But given the POWER of orbital control: A very powerful section and hence very important to make FUN.

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18 hours ago, MookMcMook said:

I think your information may not be that great if you do not mind me suggesting? How much do you know about SC? Just read the last dev communication on networking ["Obviously this is a much simplified implementation"'] and where they are with that... after 6yrs.

 

There's nothing close to CCP's EVE apart from DU (currently that I'm aware of). And again DU is not even close - currently - for obvious reasons.

Lol.

I love fanboys.

Listen. I've been playing Eve,(on and off, but still) since 2005. I love Eve, but, no matter how many of you run screaming to it's defense, it's the past. Yes, it's doing ok now. And, if they do what I suggest(Eve 2.0) it could easily surpass DU/SC etc. But stop acting like anyone who DARES to offer CCP/Eve criticism is uninformed ;)

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1 minute ago, GhostProtocol said:

Lol.

I love fanboys.

Listen. I've been playing Eve,(on and off, but still) since 2005. I love Eve, but, no matter how many of you run screaming to it's defense, it's the past. Yes, it's doing ok now. And, if they do what I suggest(Eve 2.0) it could easily surpass DU/SC etc. But stop acting like anyone who DARES to offer CCP/Eve criticism is uninformed ;)

Touche. And with a wave of your magic wand: "Eve 2.0"!

 

Try a fencing sword next time, my friend. :)

 

EVE is built around its economy and conflict. It's probably a very different game than DU will be. The reason they're compared is because there's so few "true MMOs" ie at scale, that EVE is alone and DU might add to that list. So I still think there's plenty of space for EVE in the future and talk about it being in the past are "greatly exaggerated" to (mis-)quote Mark Twain.

 

The utility of this argument is not "having the last word" or "winning"; it's to provide CLARITY and CLEAR WATER/SPACE between EVE and potentially DU on the one hand and other completely separate genres on the other hand SC, ED, NMS etc etc etc...

 

That is useful information because it's accurate and helps people make better informed decisions about how they want to spend their leisure time.

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