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Subscription model: Addressing the elephant in the room

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Subscription is the only way to prevent pay to win.... every free game out there.. every game without a subscription is pay to win.. just look at the hell that black desert has caused the past few weeks. It was a non sub game just buy the game $49 and play.. the developers swore the game would never be pay 2 win.. then just 5 months into release with servers overflowing with players they start selling armor off the cash shop in game. Now if I want uber gear.. I can buy a few sets of armor on the cash shop then sell it in game for gold I take that gold and buy playable gear for myself so bits now pay to win..

 

The reason Warcraft has been around 20yrs is cause it has a sub. It has never.. and will never be pay to win.. there is no Warcraft cash shop. I hope dual universe goes the same way.. a monthly sub and expansion packs along the way.

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Subscription is the only way to prevent pay to win.... every free game out there.. every game without a subscription is pay to win.. just look at the hell that black desert has caused the past few weeks. It was a non sub game just buy the game $49 and play.. the developers swore the game would never be pay 2 win.. then just 5 months into release with servers overflowing with players they start selling armor off the cash shop in game. Now if I want uber gear.. I can buy a few sets of armor on the cash shop then sell it in game for gold I take that gold and buy playable gear for myself so bits now pay to win..

 

The reason Warcraft has been around 20yrs is cause it has a sub. It has never.. and will never be pay to win.. there is no Warcraft cash shop. I hope dual universe goes the same way.. a monthly sub and expansion packs along the way.

You can't add expansions in a game without instances good sir. The subscription also provides a steady flow of new features and tweaks in the performance of the game itself.

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You can't add expansions in a game without instances good sir. The subscription also provides a steady flow of new features and tweaks in the performance of the game itself.

Not true. You can add expansions with out instancing. Expansions in sandbox games usually add new tools for the players to use and new things to do. A small example is when EVE online added new types of player controlled stations called citadels. They are new tools added in to the game to be used how the players see fit. No instancing needed. 

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Not true. You can add expansions with out instancing. Expansions in sandbox games usually add new tools for the players to use and new things to do. A small example is when EVE online added new types of player controlled stations called citadels. They are new tools added in to the game to be used how the players see fit. No instancing needed. 

Are you an android trying to fool the Blade Runners? Cause EVE is HEAVILY instanced and EVE has free expansions. You seem to miss the point of an expansion not being applicable on a procedural game, then you bring up a game with Free Expansions due to its PLEX + Subscription Pay-2-Play model to prove me wrong, which it didn't, so, what you are saying is that only Pay-to-Play is the best option. You know, those "expansions" you described? They are called game updates, adding new features and tweaking old ones.

 

 

Thank you for reinforcing my points. You failed the Turing Test though.

 

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The expansions in eve online are more like large named patches than the expansions of WoW. They are free and all content is available to all players. Calling them expansions is basically a PR thing. Imo having to pay extra for content is one of the best ways to kill off a sandbox.

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The expansions in eve online are more like large named patches than the expansions of WoW. They are free and all content is available to all players. Calling them expansions is basically a PR thing. Imo having to pay extra for content is one of the best ways to kill off a sandbox.

That's a smart lad. Here, have my like :D

 

 

Same deal can be done with DUAL, by having updates and patches that add tweaks and features respectively. You can't expand in a procedural universe the WoW way of doing things indeed.

 

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The expansions in eve online are more like large named patches than the expansions of WoW. They are free and all content is available to all players. Calling them expansions is basically a PR thing. Imo having to pay extra for content is one of the best ways to kill off a sandbox.

They are still content expansions in the fact that they add new tools and things to do. Doesn't matter if they are free or not, or even how big they are. They are still content expansions. If CCP wanted to they could hold back 3-4 small expansions and put them in to one big one, and then charge money for the option to use those new features.

 

Edit: Also yes this is my point. In sandbox games expansions can not be done like in wow. They would have to be more along the lines of EVE. As in adding new tools etc. Also i am not saying that I would like to see this done in DU. I was just stating the point that you do not need instancing to have content expansions.

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Are you an android trying to fool the Blade Runners? Cause EVE is HEAVILY instanced and EVE has free expansions. You seem to miss the point of an expansion not being applicable on a procedural game, then you bring up a game with Free Expansions due to its PLEX + Subscription Pay-2-Play model to prove me wrong, which it didn't, so, what you are saying is that only Pay-to-Play is the best option. You know, those "expansions" you described? They are called game updates, adding new features and tweaking old ones.

 

 

Thank you for reinforcing my points. You failed the Turing Test though.

 

EVE is not instanced. In EVE the game is split up in to what are called "solar system servers".

 

Lets use the solar system "Jita" as an example. When the Jita solar system reaches its server limit the game literally stops people from entering through its stargate. You would not be able to enter Jita until someone inside ether logs off or leaves the system. 

 

Now if EVE was instanced, when Jita filled up the game would just spawn a new INSTANCE of that solar system and send all the new people trying to get in to that INSTANCE.

 

Please know what you are talking about before typing snarky responses. 

 

Edit: And to address the point of expansions in a procedural game. There are still tools that the devs will give us to build, destroy and explore. Expansions could add new tools and new ways of doing these things. Not saying i want to be charged to use them. I am just saying that it is one way that things can happen.

 

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EVE is not instanced. In EVE the game is split up in to what are called "solar system servers".

 

Lets use the solar system "Jita" as an example. When the Jita solar system reaches its server limit the game literally stops people from entering through its stargate. You would not be able to enter Jita until someone inside ether logs off or leaves the system. 

 

Now if EVE was instanced, when Jita filled up the game would just spawn a new INSTANCE of that solar system and send all the new people trying to get in to that INSTANCE.

 

Please know what you are talking about before typing snarky responses. 

 

Edit: And to address the point of expansions in a procedural game. There are still tools that the devs will give us to build, destroy and explore. Expansions could add new tools and new ways of doing these things. Not saying i want to be charged to use them. I am just saying that it is one way that things can happen.

 

 

So, you wanna gut the Sandbox part. Gotcha. Apprently, Solar System Servers are not instances :V.

 

Good to know Solar System Servers are not instances. I guess bacon is also not meat, because it ain't steak.

 

And of course, semi-trucks are not automobiles, they are obviously not Smart cars, therefore they are not automobiles.

 

 

I can keep the sarcasm coming. :D

 

 

Also, your "expansion" ideas, are so forced to the player, that they make Pay-to-Play look like the BEST option. It will cost you less in the long run for the amount of updates.

 

 

And your expansion ideas are worst than pay-to-play for the consumer.

 

 

 

I see you've had the opportunity to meet CaptainTwerk 

 

 

It was in a dark alley apparently :V 

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So, you wnna gut the Sandbox part. Gotcha. Apaprently, Solar System Servers are not instances :V.

 

Good to know Solar System Servers are not instances. I guess bacon is also not meat, because it ain't steak.

 

And of course, semi-trucks are not automobiles, they are obviously not Smart cars, therefore they are not automobiles.

 

 

I can keep the sarcasm coming. :D

 

 

Also, your "expansion" ideas, are so forced to the player, that they make Pay-to-Play look like the BEST option. It will cost you less in the long run for the amount of updates.

 

 

And your expansion ideas are worst than pay-to-play for the consumer.

 

 

 

 

It was in a dark alley apparently :V 

 

Try reading. I didn't say i liked the idea. Was just saying that it was a possibility.

 

And no EVE is not instanced. The Jita solar system that i go to now is the same one that you can go to tomorrow. There is NEVER 2 versions or instances of a solar system.

 

"In massively multiplayer online games, an instance is a special area, typically a dungeon, that generates a new copy of the location for each group, or for certain number of players, that enters the area"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instance_dungeon

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Try reading. I didn't say i liked the idea. Was just saying that it was a possibility.

Yeah, well, it's impossible to add expansions to a procedural game :V And your "tools" idea, is what WoW did with their first expansion, while they had the whole of Outlands in the vanilla version of the game, but hidden behind a paywall.

 

 

I guess you like possibility of paywalls. 

 

 

Like, "we added this amazing new piece of expansion, which is more like a minor patch introducing a few items and skill tress, but ot get it, pay money suckers", that kind of paywall you are talking about, because, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that they can exapnd the procedural universe to validate the cost of an expansion's 30 USD or 60 USD, not to mention the cash-shop with the Pay-to-Win items in it that goes along with Buy-to-Play and Expansions, without any subscription.

 

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Yeah, well, it's impossible to add expansions to a procedural game :V And your "tools" idea, is what WoW did with their first expansion, while they had the whole of Outlands in the vanilla version of the game, but hidden behind a paywall.

 

 

I guess you like possibility of paywalls. 

 

 

Like, "we added this amazing new piece of expansion, which is more like a minor patch introducing a few items and skill tress, but ot get it, pay money suckers", that kind of paywall you are talking about, because, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that they can exapnd the procedural universe to validate the cost of an expansion's 30 USD or 60 USD, not to mention the cash-shop with the Pay-to-Win items in it that goes along with Buy-to-Play and Expansions, without any subscription.

I prefer just a subscription based game with no expansion costs. But that being said i would rather have pay-for expansion model than a F2P model with a P2W cash shop.

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I prefer just a subscription based game with no expansion costs. But that being said i would rather have pay-for expansion model than a F2P model with a P2W cash shop.

Cool.

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It could be possible to do what paradox does with their games -- the expansion content is present for everyone but the player can't directly utilize it unless they bought the expansion. A stupid contrived example could be a component building expansion. Players who buy the expansion could design new components, but all players can buy/sell/build/use them.

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It could be possible to do what paradox does with their games -- the expansion content is present for everyone but the player can't directly utilize it unless they bought the expansion. A stupid contrived example could be a component building expansion. Players who buy the expansion could design new components, but all players can buy/sell/build/use them.

And then the game dies. So, instead of buying a 60 USD game and paying subscription if you can't buy it in-game, for in-game cash, you instead want to have  game that milks you every time you want to take a turn.

 

"What is dat m8? You want what? Nuh-uh, you can't take a turn there m8, that will be 5 bucks to go there. Nuh-uh, you can't go ahead either that's 5 bucks as well. Nuh-uh, left is 5 bucks as well. BUT, you can buy them all for 10 bucks."

 

/you pay 10 bucks/

 

next time you are at a cross-roads 

 

"hello sucker, pay up if you wanna do anything"

 

 

You advocate for the cancer in the gaming industry good sir. You are advocating on the worst part of Buy-to-Play. You are asking for more DLC, more Pre-Order bonuses, more exclusives.

 

 

"Buy DUAL on Steam and get 15% more resources gathered." 

 

This is what you want from the game companies? To milk you dry? Paradox Interactive? Those guys are one step into the gutter along with EA and Ubisoft.

 

 

So, you want the game to be worse than Pay-To-Win, that at least let's you play the full game but makes it hard if you don't pay. You want to bring cancer into DUAL.

 

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It could be possible to do what paradox does with their games -- the expansion content is present for everyone but the player can't directly utilize it unless they bought the expansion. A stupid contrived example could be a component building expansion. Players who buy the expansion could design new components, but all players can buy/sell/build/use them.

I don't think that a thing like this would be estimatable in a long run.

 

Asuming that the game will go for very long time, the possible extensions to get the game and the servery running would be pretty big.

 

In the long run it would end that 50% of the game would be free and 50% would be imensly higher in price, given that only a smaller amount of players would need to afford it.

 

Having some strength in doing or making stuff someone else could not would result in some player have a huge advantage on the market against player not buying the expansions. That would mean its pay to win to some extend anyway.

 

I think as stated previously, that pay to play + plex would be best for most of the players. 

The prices would be splitted among all people.

 

10-15€ per month is something most of the people can pay.

And not beeing able to afford that, i'm not sure if spending your time in a game like this would be the best way to use your time tbh.

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I don't think that a thing like this would be estimatable in a long run.

 

Asuming that the game will go for very long time, the possible extensions to get the game and the servery running would be pretty big.

 

In the long run it would end that 50% of the game would be free and 50% would be imensly higher in price, given that only a smaller amount of players would need to afford it.

 

Having some strength in doing or making stuff someone else could not would result in some player have a huge advantage on the market against player not buying the expansions. That would mean its pay to win to some extend anyway.

 

I think as stated previously, that pay to play + plex would be best for most of the players. 

The prices would be splitted among all people.

 

10-15€ per month is something most of the people can pay.

And not beeing able to afford that, i'm not sure if spending your time in a game like this would be the best way to use your time tbh.

Less that 50%. Croxis is asking for Pay-Walls in a game that its main selling point is "There are no Walls". He clearly doesn't get the point

 

And yes, 10-15 USD is something affordable. But the sad reality, is that people, especially many children born into the Youtube-era, are freeloaders who think EVERYTHING shoud be free. There's a reason free-to-play Korean MMOs boast larger and larger boobs on the female models. 

 

 

If you guessed because puberty, you guessed right.

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Few days ago i have wrote a big article about Monetization and posted at the end of this topic
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/394-devblog-monetization-player-happiness-and-economic-viability/page-8

I'm not an economist, or an expert, but I'm a business graduated that study the MMO market since Ultima Online and still work very close to games industry now days. My article is a MMO market based study of case,

I hope you guys can have a look specially at P2P part of my article where i demonstrate why subscription is and obsolete method and because Real World Money and currencies are not balanced

The (P2P) Methode unbalance the game, its not lore friend and break the immersion,

with a risk to become P2W if any kind of item (like a Plex) can be purchased with Real money and sold for game money inside the game

 

Just as example: if the subscription is based on $15 USD a player today would pay (and think):

 

UK (British) player .....:   $ 13.25 EUR  (Ah that's OK,  not real expensive I like the game and I can afford for it)

CA (Canadian) ...........:  $ 37.48 CAD  (Well if its just I playing its OK, sadly i think it will become hard to pay 2 subs, for me and my son)
BR (Brazilian)Player....:  $ 48.22 BRL  (PQP its half hundred! I love the game but Idk if i can maintain and so idk if worth to join this game)

SA (South African)......:  $ 202.54 ZAR (OMG ! i love game but impossible to pay monthly, even I can afford to buy items some times)

 

P2P is a huge pay-wall for families with more than one player, teens that need parents to pay, low budget college students, etc ...

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Few days ago i have wrote a big article about Monetization and posted at the end of this topic

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/394-devblog-monetization-player-happiness-and-economic-viability/page-8

 

I'm not an economist, or an expert, but I'm a business graduated that study the MMO market since Ultima Online and still work very close to games industry now days. My article is a MMO market based study of case,

I hope you guys can have a look specially at P2P part of my article where i demonstrate why subscription is and obsolete method and because Real World Money and currencies are not balanced

The (P2P) Methode unbalance the game, its not lore friend and break the immersion,

with a risk to become P2W if any kind of item (like a Plex) can be purchased with Real money and sold for game money inside the game

 

Just as example: if the subscription is based on $15 USD a player today would pay (and think):

 

UK (British) player .....:   $ 13.25 EUR  (Ah that's OK,  not real expensive I like the game and I can afford for it)

CA (Canadian) ...........:  $ 37.48 CAD  (Well if its just I playing its OK, sadly i think it will become hard to pay 2 subs, for me and my son)

BR (Brazilian)Player....:  $ 48.22 BRL  (PQP its half hundred! I love the game but Idk if i can maintain and so idk if worth to join this game)

SA (South African)......:  $ 202.54 ZAR (OMG ! i love game but impossible to pay monthly, even I can afford to buy items some times)

 

P2P is a huge pay-wall for families with more than one player, teens that need parents to pay, low budget college students, etc ...

Uhm... you do know of inflation, local taxes and online offers right? :P The South African dollar prices you've mentioned doesn't represent the local salaries. The minimum wage in Greece is 512 EURO a month. See in the regions you've mentioned for the minimum wage and see how easy it is to afford a subscription.  

 

 

Also, if you were to buy a yearly sub, it will cost you much less than a monthly fee, when someone is referring to a 15 USD sub, they refer to the model that extrapolates around the world. I mean, they can afford the 15 USD sub in China for WoW... I mean... it's China...

 

 

In WoW, I used to get a yearly fee, because I don't like the hassle, it used to run me 90 Euro, 30 Euro less than if I were to buy them each month. And DUAL goes for a PLEX system, chances are, you'll be able to buy sub in-game, for in-game cash.

 

Also... Britain got the Pound, not Euro :P Just saying.

 

I mean, I'm greek, I live in a failed state and most people I know of have no problem paying 15 USD sub to play WoW and most of my guildies from 2005 now have their children playing WoW as well.

 

 

I can't see Canadians having a problem with a sub.

 

 

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UK (British) player .....:   $ 13.25 EUR  (Ah that's OK,  not real expensive I like the game and I can afford for it)

CA (Canadian) ...........:  $ 37.48 CAD  (Well if its just I playing its OK, sadly i think it will become hard to pay 2 subs, for me and my son)

BR (Brazilian)Player....:  $ 48.22 BRL  (PQP its half hundred! I love the game but Idk if i can maintain and so idk if worth to join this game)

SA (South African)......:  $ 202.54 ZAR (OMG ! i love game but impossible to pay monthly, even I can afford to buy items some times)

 

P2P is a huge pay-wall for families with more than one player, teens that need parents to pay, low budget college students, etc ...

1 EUR =/= 1 ZAR

also as a teen i can tell you, its not hard at all to raise 13,25 Eur a month

i currently get around 80 a month for 8 hours of newspaper carrying per month, thats a bit less than 1 1/2 hours per month to play the game further more newspaper salary varies depending on the amount of ads meaning i often get over 100 Eur

 

teens should be over 14 to play this game anyways (you know behaving mature etc.) and its not hard to find a part time job paying over 30 per month

 

Apply inflation to that and you get around the same result for probably every currency you mentioned

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1 EUR =/= 1 ZAR

also as a teen i can tell you, its not hard at all to raise 13,25 Eur a month

i currently get around 80 a month for 8 hours of newspaper carrying per month, thats a bit less than 1 1/2 hours per month to play the game further more newspaper salary varies depending on the amount of ads meaning i often get over 100 Eur

 

teens should be over 14 to play this game anyways (you know behaving mature etc.) and its not hard to find a part time job paying over 30 per month

 

Apply inflation to that and you get around the same result for probably every currency you mentioned

 

I doubt we we will see many kids in this game though, I expect most serious orgs are going to require their members to be at least 18+ and if we look at eve online, which in my mind has the same target audience, that game has a average age of around 30.

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I doubt we we will see many kids in this game though, I expect most serious orgs are going to require their members to be at least 18+ and if we look at eve online, which in my mind has the same target audience, that game has a average age of around 30.

i dislike set age limits, if there is a 16 year old that behaves just as mature as your average 18+ he/she should still be allowed to join the faction

 

the true criteria should be behaving mature not beeing adult

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I doubt we we will see many kids in this game though, I expect most serious orgs are going to require their members to be at least 18+ and if we look at eve online, which in my mind has the same target audience, that game has a average age of around 30.

"18+ you say. Good...I'm old enough to apply for your organisation. As for Eve-- Eve has been around for more than a decade. There's been plenty time to build up and most of the younger players left because...well, if you've played Eve, you'd know. Kids will come. Some will stay, some will leave. As for putting an age limit for organisations, it's a good idea, but you're cutting down on some enthusiastic fuel and ideas."

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