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Various questions about vehicle/structure mechanics

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Basically here are a bunch of questions I tried to come up with about vehicle and structure mechanics. If any of these have been answered by NQ already, please let me know :D, otherwise just give what you speculate the answer will be.

 

In advance, I hope I don't come off as a jerk questioning game mechanics in-depth before the alpha is even out, I'm just curious :P

 

_________________________________________________________

 

1. Will "Vehicles" and "Buildings" be considered separate types of structures in terms of the game's design? EX: Could I make a house and then later strap a bunch of thrusters to it?

 

2. Referring to question 1, if they are separate types of structures, is there a size limit for vehicles?

 

3. Will large player built structures have their own orbit if they are massive enough? (This question applies to vehicles too if there's no size limit.)

 

4. Will logging out as the sole operator of a vehicle cause it to disappear? (like logging out in Eve)

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1. Will "Vehicles" and "Buildings" be considered separate types of structures in terms of the game's design? EX: Could I make a house and then later strap a bunch of thrusters to it?

 

2. Referring to question 1, if they are separate types of structures, is there a size limit for vehicles?

 

3. Will large player built structures have their own orbit if they are massive enough? (This question applies to vehicles too if there's no size limit.)

 

4. Will logging out as the sole operator of a vehicle cause it to disappear? (like logging out in Eve)

 

1. Depends on which Core Unit you use to build it. I guess theoretically, you could destroy the Stationary Core unit and replace with a vehicle one, but your house probably won't fly.

 

2. The Limit is currently... limitless. "As big as you can make it!" seems to be the answer. It'll require huge amount of fuel and power the bigger it gets.

 

3. Well, the station in all the vids they've shown is "player-built". It appears to be in orbit. So... yes.

 

4. Nope. That's why parking lots in the safe zone is gonna be a thing. Probably.

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Maybe to add on 3)

I don't think player built constructs will have orbits on their own (a player built station won't have moons or satellites in their orbit). Even though every planet/moon/sun is a construct.

This would just be too much

 

And to 4)

No your constructs will stay in the game. But they talked about a 24h shield (perhaps) so that it's safe. I'm against that for different reasons, but thats another story

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There are static and mobile core units. Each CU has a build grid that will allow you to build within an area of space. The size of the unit determines the size of the build grid.

 

Also, I dont believe its confirmed, but the intent is to allow players to build and sell constructs to other players, that can be used in construction of other constructs. I believe ownership is assigned with core units. So, this implies that multiple core units can be used in the building of a construct.

 

This would allow you to extend the build grid, to make larger constructs.

 

You could use a mobile core unit and design your construct to look like a house. Then slap some engines on it to move it.

 

Orbits are a function of gravity. Essentially, the object (plant, moon, satellite, or ship) is constantly flying at a 90 degree angle to the gravitational pull of an object. If it flies fast enough to "miss" the object when falling, it is successfully orbiting. Of course, every second it passes by the object and its gravitational pull it must fly perpendicular to gravity. Thus, the object always "misses" the object when falling towards it.

 

I believe a core unit probably has its own physics grid thats part of the build grid. Ships will have their own "artificial gravity", but the videos have shown build grids to be cubes. Not spheres, like a planet's gravity . My guess is theres a "down" side to a core unit, which determines the direction of artificial gravity.

 

Could that impact another mobile construct, thereby necessitating the establishment of an orbit? I havent seen it in the videos of flight. When a ship lands on what appears to be a carrier, it stops then settles on the pad. There didnt appear to be gravity. It looked like a controlled movement by the pilot.

 

But who knows...

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1.There should be 2 version of the core unit (the first element you place to build a construct), one is static and let you build on the same grid of a planet/asteroid so it cannot move, one is dynamic and create a new grid for a mobile construct. To switch your house (static) to a mobile construct it's probably not enough to just switch the core units, you'll need some kind of merge element i guess (like in space engineers), and this will happen but after release. For now you can stick you house to the ground with landing gear, so it's still a mobile construct but it doesn't move (but probably dynamic core units are more limited than the statics (size and costs), and there's a risk that someone could steal your house too). 

 

2.There is no technical limit but they stated that there'll be different levels of core units (tier1, tier2, ...) and each of them will have a maximum size, so that there is a certain level of progression and people don't just build a deathstar day one. You can technically build a limitless construct without using a core unit, but it wouldn't have a owner, and I don't even know if it would work. I expect this limits to be quite large anyway, and after release, when they'll add the merge block, you'll be able to stack multiple core units to build a limitless construct.

 

3.No, first of all because noone will ever be able to build a construct so big that has his own gravity. Secondly because if it works for bigger construct, even small construct would have to generate a small amount of gravity. Having hundreds sources of gravity in a large battle it's bad for the client and servers, nor it provide any gameplay. There'll maybe be a gravity generator though, so that you don't float all the time while in a station. 

 

4.Constructs never disappear, since they're made out of voxels. Even if you want to sell your ship, you'll place it in a zone marked by the market unit, and someone that wants to buy one will come in this parking area and choose the one he wants, it never becomes an item. 

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4. Nope. That's why parking lots in the safe zone is gonna be a thing. Probably.

 

Hopefully there will be safe-ish ways to store constructs in a hex with a friendly TU. If the only way to protect a construct is to park it in a safe zone, then AFK raiding is going to be a rampant issue lol.

 

Perhaps something a bit less robust than the Home Base system in Starmade (where up to one station owned by a faction is indestructible, and everything docked to that station is also indestructible), but even if it were equivalent I'd be cool with that.

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Hopefully there will be safe-ish ways to store constructs in a hex with a friendly TU. If the only way to protect a construct is to park it in a safe zone, then AFK raiding is going to be a rampant issue lol.

 

Perhaps something a bit less robust than the Home Base system in Starmade (where up to one station owned by a faction is indestructible, and everything docked to that station is also indestructible), but even if it were equivalent I'd be cool with that.

Its called keeping inside a secure hangar or having so much defence that only pros would attempt it, at which point there is no stopping them

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Its called keeping inside a secure hangar or having so much defence that only pros would attempt it, at which point there is no stopping them

Thats a very Rust mentality, and this isn't Rust. Too soon to speculate though, only hopes

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Hopefully there will be safe-ish ways to store constructs in a hex with a friendly TU. If the only way to protect a construct is to park it in a safe zone, then AFK raiding is going to be a rampant issue lol.

 

Perhaps something a bit less robust than the Home Base system in Starmade (where up to one station owned by a faction is indestructible, and everything docked to that station is also indestructible), but even if it were equivalent I'd be cool with that.

Any construct is protected inside a protected TU, that's the point of TU

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Any construct is protected inside a protected TU, that's the point of TU

Protected from someone unauthorised using construction tools, not guns (only safe zones are fully protected)

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Protected from someone unauthorised using construction tools, not guns (only safe zones are fully protected)

Again, we don't actually know how this will work yet!

 

The intent of the TU is indeed to prevent the use of construction tools, mining, ect and manage permissions. However the Devs also mentioned that fighting over control of TU's will be a part of how war will work, which means there will be SOME way to attack a territory claimed by a TU.

 

If attackign a well-protected TU pretty much REQUIRED a siege to occur, then storing a ship at a friendly TU would still be fairly safe. Perhaps immobile constructs will have access to much harder shielding, or an emergency shield system that kicks-in when the base is under attack and EITHER lasts a # of hours or requires an invasion force to attack it to bring it down faster. Stealing or grieving a ship is a crime of opportunity, if it is too inconvenient, then the typical player will leave it there. Thus storing a ship at a TU would require an invasion force or a very patient fairly well-equipped player to destroy/steal (and you'd lose your ship if someone was also after the territory of course).

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If attackign a well-protected TU pretty much REQUIRED a siege to occur, then storing a ship at a friendly TU would still be fairly safe. Perhaps immobile constructs will have access to much harder shielding, or an emergency shield system that kicks-in when the base is under attack and EITHER lasts a # of hours or requires an invasion force to attack it to bring it down faster. Stealing or grieving a ship is a crime of opportunity, if it is too inconvenient, then the typical player will leave it there. Thus storing a ship at a TU would require an invasion force or a very patient fairly well-equipped player to destroy/steal (and you'd lose your ship if someone was also after the territory of course).

 

hence my earlier statement of:

 

Its called keeping inside a secure hangar or having so much defence that only pros would attempt it, at which point there is no stopping them

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You can use guns in a TU, but you can't just enter and kill anyone when you want. The defender will know he's going to be attacked and he'll have a way to prepare and defend himself. So if you're building a ship, you can move it or dismantle it before the fight happens. Ofc if you're building a static construct or a very large ship that you can't move easily and still doesn't have thrusters installed, then you'd have to find another way, but you'd still have time to prepare for the fight. He devs already mentioned a shield bubble that you'll use, and that will have the role to buy time (it could either have a very large hp pool, or would disappear after x amount of time after the attacker declardd his intentions). Sry for typos i'm on the phone

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You can use guns in a TU, but you can't just enter and kill anyone when you want. The defender will know he's going to be attacked and he'll have a way to prepare and defend himself. So if you're building a ship, you can move it or dismantle it before the fight happens

For the sake of reference please quote NQ on this one. Because I think you might be wrong here

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For the sake of reference please quote NQ on this one. Because I think you might be wrong here

Most of what we know about TUs are here: https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2015/07/24/territory-control/

 

Specific quote on 'war' (taking and holding) is all we have on combat oriented TU interaction:

 

Now, a few words about war. You can get control over a territory by “convincing” its owner or administrator to give a delegation to you, or, more traditionally, you can enter it, find the territory unit, destroy it and plant your own, or simply hack it. Expect it to be well hidden and well defended. Territory Units can also be grouped into centralized territory units: getting access to those can grant you control over several tiles at the same time, but of course they will be harder to conquer. Setting up a territory unit can take up to 24 hours, so the process of changing tile ownership is not an easy matter. By default, all delegations will be preserved in case of a change of ownership (which can also happen peacefully via selling), so you need to review the status to decide if you want to keep or break previous delegations. Delegations, like power granting, can come with warranties, so be careful of the price to pay before revoking past commitments.

Please note that the ability to change "whether you can enter it" via RDMS simply means that you will be flagged upon entering the area, not an invisible wall stopping you (you would need a shield for that, which might not stop you as we don't know if it can).

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Yes that's what I was referring too. Rdms scripts can't flag a person (stated by nyz) and you can use guns. So....you Can just walk up to a ship inside a TCU and kill it. If there are no other means to protect it

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Yes that's what I was referring too. Rdms scripts can't flag a person (stated by nyz) and you can use guns. So....you Can just walk up to a ship inside a TCU and kill it. If there are no other means to protect it

what are you talking about, there are means to protect it, it's even stated in that quote! They often said that there'll be an energy shield (and an enemy can't go inside, otherwise why would you put a shield?), and that probably there'll be unmanned defenses. So you can't enter a tu zone and start killing people ( unless that guy placed his tu 5 minute ago, and his energy shield is not online yet, but you wouldnt have anything to defend either in that case)

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what are you talking about, there are means to protect it, it's even stated in that quote! They often said that there'll be an energy shield (and an enemy can't go inside, otherwise why would you put a shield?), and that probably there'll be unmanned defenses. So you can't enter a tu zone and start killing people ( unless that guy placed his tu 5 minute ago, and his energy shield is not online yet, but you wouldnt have anything to defend either in that case)

From my interpretation, the energy shield does not come pre-installed and/or requires significant power to function. In my opinion, the energy shield is the next best thing to a safe-zone, as only those with massive firepower can defeat it in a straight up battle, so it should be costly to obtain and keep running. There should be tiers of defence available, else Johnny Cheese can just place several TUs and leave them there to stop pirate raids or unwanted travel due to an impassable energy shield.

 

The ability to waltz into a TU's area does not mean you can waltz through doors, hence a defended area will at least have a wall and gates, not to mention how defended access to any hangar bays you would leave your ships in. I believe there was confirmation of defence turrets that automatically fire upon those who are designated by RDMS, which should help increase defence capabilities of those who need it. Also, reliance on an energy shield to protect you means you neglect other methods of theft, such as spies or hacking.

 

Don't always think of things on the macro, army vs army, scale, since there are also forces who work by stealth or hit and run who would be useless against a defence against an army being the only way in. Not everyone is there to take the TU (what the shield is for), just something that happens to be inside it's borders.

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No. You'll have to build that energy shield. And it will use fuel. And those unmanned defenses need to be built. And kept in good shape (ammo, repaired,...). Not every TCU will have a shield or defenses (as I said...). So if you park your ship there, it can be killed. A TCU doesn't automatically mean safezone.

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I do expect a basic shield to be easy to build and to be used by everyone with a tcu, that's why i was saying that you can't shoot in a tcu. It comes with different tiers and the more energy you givr to it, the stronger it is.

 

I was answering a question about being killed in a tcu while building a construct, i said they can't kill you and i was intending that you're likely going to have a bubble around the tcu tile.For me is safe to assume that, i don't see how it should take more than a couple of days to set up a shield, and ofc you wouldn't start to build a construct before placing your shield. If those conditions are met, noone can shoot you while you're building a construct.

 

i can't quote nq since i've read pretty much all the devblogs, forum posts, ama, q&a, facebook answers, twitter answers, mails, kickstarter comments and updates, and so on..., plus i've watched all the devdiaries, interviews and anyhing related to this game, so i don't even know where i took he information from. Other than that, i can speculate freely, since not even nq knows exactly how they're going to develop certain aspects right now. Speculation is not a false information, is an information that cannot be proved ( still wasn't the case here, since the shield is going to happen and the rest was just a misunderstanding)

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Ok but then write: imho, I think, to my understanding, I believe....

 

You presented your speculation as fact:

 

You can use guns in a TU, but you can't just enter and kill anyone when you want.

Afawk you can do that. And only because you think a lowtier shield exists (which I'm not aware of) doesn't mean it's cheap. There has to be a significant cost to it plus the maintenance otherwise people like me would be running around and taking space just to annoy others.

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Afawk you can do that. And only because you think a lowtier shield exists (which I'm not aware of) doesn't mean it's cheap. There has to be a significant cost to it plus the maintenance otherwise people like me would be running around and taking space just to annoy others.

A low tier shield would probably be mid-high tech stuff, as there are other ways to defend an area. It might only be able to absorb damage from outside the shield, such as orbital bombardment or artillery. This means that you would only get to use close-quarters tactics (though this also depends on the terrain inside) such as infantry and close support airstrikes.

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I was saying that there are ways to being killed while building a construct in a tcu zone, that is what the guy asked, i didn't want to start a debate. 

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With all this said,

... the only thing i hope is that there will be some way to protect your bases, besides "the trust in other players army (factions army) etc"...

I'm a builder, not a fighter, nor have lot of time to be online because RL ... Life... 
I'm  hoping to claim a land bellow the ark ship indestructible shield and real safe zone to build my ship factory and store. Also my home base !

 

And why i think players have to have a way to protect their constructs, (the stationary ones, home bases, storage, etc ... not ships) 

other wise, the cities and buildings will be very blocky and ugly, simply because no one will spend months of work and energy to build and polish details on their homes base, to make it become like a great Sci-fi building... if at any time it can be destroyed and looted, and when the player logs in will discover that all his work went to hell...

 

I got it that attack and defense of player build cities and bases will be part of game pvp mechanics, but there is a lot of players that plays sand box because love to build, and don't like that much pvp, and i think if there has a way to protect your base, this ppl could be the owners of stations, markets and that "safe park zone" was mentioned before.

All times i've played at a minecraft server, when the server has no protection, use to be a full pvp server, where players only play casually, log in, make his base as hidden as possible, don't care about visual, just make it as simple and functional because they know the moment 1 single player find his base, this player will not rest until destroy it.
In other hand on minecraft servers with land protection (like golden shovel), we can see players making great bases, castles, sculptures... Working on develop complex automated machinery systems, etc.. Players works for months to make their homes great following his imagination, it makes the cities beautifully and unique
(while PVP players still join, built a simple and functional home and go to the fight have fun)
Now imagine how great will be the constructs inside DU with all this vox versatility ?! The cities will become great art galleries. 
Like if i want to make and giant Iron statue in the middle of my city, just like a monument, it will take lots of real time and effort. I want it to stay there to other players to see, and don't want to need shield (thats destructible any way) or automated turrets to shoot everybody ho gets close to it..... but i obvious don't want to spend so much time doing it, for some one with a single bomb from space destroy it...... 

Builders put lots of effort on a game, hours and hours of work lost sleep, and they get very disappointed when suddenly see all destructed, and some will lose the interest in the game and never come back after see everything he built down to ashes, and all his stored mats gone... .   

 

 

Thats why i think Dev team should think a little about that sandbox players that love to create and let its art for posterity, 

and give them the opportunity to do this inside DU,will make the game more alive and beautiful,
Instead of make a full pvp kill or be killed game universe..... 

 


BTW... just my point of view, and I'm a maker, probably the players that love action and war will disagree and say:
"Imagine all this beautiful city you mentioned above been attacked and burned to the ground, all that players crying on the chat....  WILL BE EPIC  \o/    !!"

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With all this said,

 

... the only thing i hope is that there will be some way to protect your bases, besides "the trust in other players army (factions army) etc"...

 

I'm a builder, not a fighter, nor have lot of time to be online because RL ... Life...

I'm hoping to claim a land bellow the ark ship indestructible shield and real safe zone to build my ship factory and store. Also my home base !

 

And why i think players have to have a way to protect their constructs, (the stationary ones, home bases, storage, etc ... not ships)

other wise, the cities and buildings will be very blocky and ugly, simply because no one will spend months of work and energy to build and polish details on their homes base, to make it become like a great Sci-fi building... if at any time it can be destroyed and looted, and when the player logs in will discover that all his work went to hell...

 

I got it that attack and defense of player build cities and bases will be part of game pvp mechanics, but there is a lot of players that plays sand box because love to build, and don't like that much pvp, and i think if there has a way to protect your base, this ppl could be the owners of stations, markets and that "safe park zone" was mentioned before.

 

All times i've played at a minecraft server, when the server has no protection, use to be a full pvp server, where players only play casually, log in, make his base as hidden as possible, don't care about visual, just make it as simple and functional because they know the moment 1 single player find his base, this player will not rest until destroy it.

In other hand on minecraft servers with land protection (like golden shovel), we can see players making great bases, castles, sculptures... Working on develop complex automated machinery systems, etc.. Players works for months to make their homes great following his imagination, it makes the cities beautifully and unique

(while PVP players still join, built a simple and functional home and go to the fight have fun)

Now imagine how great will be the constructs inside DU with all this vox versatility ?! The cities will become great art galleries.

Like if i want to make and giant Iron statue in the middle of my city, just like a monument, it will take lots of real time and effort. I want it to stay there to other players to see, and don't want to need shield (thats destructible any way) or automated turrets to shoot everybody ho gets close to it..... but i obvious don't want to spend so much time doing it, for some one with a single bomb from space destroy it......

 

Builders put lots of effort on a game, hours and hours of work lost sleep, and they get very disappointed when suddenly see all destructed, and some will lose the interest in the game and never come back after see everything he built down to ashes, and all his stored mats gone... .

 

 

Thats why i think Dev team should think a little about that sandbox players that love to create and let its art for posterity,

and give them the opportunity to do this inside DU,will make the game more alive and beautiful,

Instead of make a full pvp kill or be killed game universe.....

 

 

BTW... just my point of view, and I'm a maker, probably the players that love action and war will disagree and say:

"Imagine all this beautiful city you mentioned above been attacked and burned to the ground, all that players crying on the chat.... WILL BE EPIC \o/ !!"

That's exactly why there is the arkship with an indestructible shield. All other bases outside that area are pvp bases for the most part, which you will have to defend - even though you can put up a shield which only slows the enemy so you can organize your defenses. For the builders and non pvpers, there is the arkzone to invest huge amounts of time to come up with cool and shiny buildings

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