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bastanold

Ships and the crew required

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The B52 is a large aircraft, but it only has a crew of 5 (pilot, co-pilot, weapons systems officer, electronic warfare officer, and navigator). Those are all the same functions a fighter pilot fulfills so with the right electronics setup a single person could technically fly a B52 with full functionality. Could they do it better than a full crew? Probably not. Could they also perform all the in flight maintenance, repairs, reloading, etc.? No, so probably not a good idea. That's why i suggested the npc or offline-friends-as-npc idea (capped at 5 per player). They could continue the fight while you effect repairs or whatever (or vice versa). The B36 would've been a better example with a crew of 13. Then you'd have to join up with at least 2 more players and their crews.

So your logic is "We want multi-crew ships so we're going to limit players to walking OR chewing gum. Not both at the same time!"

I know about the memory wipe. I'm wondering if there was any additional brain damage that would affect people's ability to multitask.

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Do you think B36 crews tried to stop development of the B52 because it had fewer people aboard? Something like "You can't fly no bomber with less than 13 people! That's crazy talk. And just plain wrong. WRONG I TELL YA!"

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Yay! Finally some people that get it. I dont care if it's npc bots, costructed ai droids, or grouped systems, i just dont want to be some kind of simpleton who can only do one thing at a time. RL single-seat fighter pilots must be able to operate multiple weapons systems, sensors, counter measures, nav tools, comms, and a dozen other things all on their own. Why would we lose the ability to multitask thousands of years in the future? Serious question: Did the Arkship crash give us all brain damage beyond the memory wipe? If they put something like that in the lore I'll shut up and move on. I won't like it, but I'll accept it since then the one player per element rule would make some kind of sense.

 

You don't ask for multitasking here. You ask for automated turrets. You CAN multitask in DU and you HAVE TO. You need to watch sensors, counter measures, nav tools, comms, weapons, energy, fuel, ranges and so on.

That is NOT the same thing as doing all that stuff AND firing at an enemy ship automatically.

 

The B52 is a large aircraft, but it only has a crew of 5 (pilot, co-pilot, weapons systems officer, electronic warfare officer, and navigator). Those are all the same functions a fighter pilot fulfills so with the right electronics setup a single person could technically fly a B52 with full functionality. Could they do it better than a full crew? Probably not. Could they also perform all the in flight maintenance, repairs, reloading, etc.? No, so probably not a good idea. That's why i suggested the npc or offline-friends-as-npc idea (capped at 5 per player). They could continue the fight while you effect repairs or whatever (or vice versa). The B36 would've been a better example with a crew of 13. Then you'd have to join up with at least 2 more players and their crews.

So your logic is "We want multi-crew ships so we're going to limit players to walking OR chewing gum. Not both at the same time!"

I know about the memory wipe. I'm wondering if there was any additional brain damage that would affect people's ability to multitask.

 

You're, again, mixing things here. Flying such a ship ("pilot, co-pilot, weapons systems officer, electronic warfare officer, and navigator") is not the issue here. Though to me it would make more sense if you split certain roles there too, different players for efficiency (shields, engineering, fuel/engines, ...).

The issue at hand is more like a B17 Flying Fortress. Sure, you can fly it solo. But you won't get to man those machine gun ports - they'd be silent.

I don't see a problem with ammo in a bomber tbh. I only see a problem with ammo in turrets. You'd need people there, as you said.

 

Your logic is (and to use your metaphor there): "I want to walk, chew a gum, looking at a map, plotting my course, watching where I go, constantly checking my stamina and strenght (=fuel) while I shoot people with my gun in front of me......AND AT THE SAME TIME I want to mirror myself 40m behind myself so that I can shoot people there too"

No one will have an issue with the first part. The last part is obviously NOT what you want in a MMO, for good reasons

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Do you think B36 crews tried to stop development of the B52 because it had fewer people aboard? Something like "You can't fly no bomber with less than 13 people! That's crazy talk. And just plain wrong. WRONG I TELL YA!"

Build a smaller Bomber then.

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That's not multitasking. Having a specific role is specialization. It's not fun if you always do that same one thing, but if you can rotate through positions it is fun. Plus you are not always in big ships and fleet fights. Sometimes you are in smaller ships where each person has to multitask

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In DU i think only the captain and pilot will be consistantly active. Maybe the engineer too if there's a kind of "mini game" where you have to constantly mange power levels & distribution, shield strength & harmonics, etc. Gunners will only be active during an engagement, and even then a gunner might not get to do anything if the enemy ship doesn't pass within that gunner's field of fire. As i said before I'll fill any role in a pinch even if i dont like it, but not everyone is like that. How hard is it going to be to find trustworthy gunners to man all those guns if all they do is stare at a screen and maybe occasionally push a button?

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In DU i think only the captain and pilot will be consistantly active. Maybe the engineer too if there's a kind of "mini game" where you have to constantly mange power levels & distribution, shield strength & harmonics, etc. Gunners will only be active during an engagement, and even then a gunner might not get to do anything if the enemy ship doesn't pass within that gunner's field of fire. As i said before I'll fill any role in a pinch even if i dont like it, but not everyone is like that. How hard is it going to be to find trustworthy gunners to man all those guns if all they do is stare at a screen and maybe occasionally push a button?

What exactly does the pilot or captain do in a 3 weeks+ travel from one planet to another? Exactly: nothing. Except maybe build in the VR mode, and doing other stuff, depending what nq plans to implement for such a journey

But IF a fight emerges, you'll be glad to have every man you could get on that trip.

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I doubt there will be many three week journeys. Only the brave adventures do that. Not to mention it is boring :P If any one does do that, most people will probably just log out till the ship gets close to the destination.

 

As to what HufarTed said, nobody is going to always be active. People will log in and out at different times depending on their schedule. I have found the 10% rule to be pretty accurate: for any given group there is generally around 10% of the people online at any given time. That can fluctuate depending on a lot of things, but it does mean that you have different numbers of people on at different times, and never everybody on at once. How hard will it be to find enough crew? That depends. How many slots do you need to fill? How many people are in your group, corp, alliance? What are you going to do? If you are looking for 20 gunners and only have 50 people in your corp, good luck ever having enough people on at the same time for that. If you are looking for gunners to sit there and man the guns while you mine, people will probably not be interested. If you are in a group of 300 and are looking for 10 gunners to go fight in a battle you know is about to happen, you shouldn't have much difficulty. It is all about circumstances and planning. 

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I think I'm starting to repeat myself and there's enough food for thought here so I'm moving on. I hope things turn out well for those who still think 1 gun per player is a good idea.

Cheers.

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Actually i have one more question, then I'll get off this particular soap box. Does anyone know if non-gunner positions still get to control a gun or is it really just one function per player on anything bigger than a single seater?

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Actually i have one more question, then I'll get off this particular soap box. Does anyone know if non-gunner positions still get to control a gun or is it really just one function per player on anything bigger than a single seater?

You can do whatever you want. Whatever position is needed. My guess (!!) Is that, because of the time based skill system, you just get a bonus if you're skilled in that role (more range, better accuracy, faster repair rate, better navigation skills, ...).

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Essentially I'm asking if multi-crew ships need dedicated gunners or can the captain, pilot, engineer, etc also control one weapon each?

 

Edit: For small-medium sized ships. Obviously cruiser class & up would need dedicated gunners.

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Essentially I'm asking if multi-crew ships need dedicated gunners or can the captain, pilot, engineer, etc also control one weapon each?

 

Edit: For small-medium sized ships. Obviously cruiser class & up would need dedicated gunners.

NQ talked about a person per gun. Larger vessels probably. Specifics, yet to be seen.

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Well if the Captain or engineer dont need to be at their post, then they can lend a hand at firing more of the guns. Situational awareness is important though. Have to see what they implement. I still feel like large multi crew ships are going to be pretty rare. 3-5 crew ships will be the norm, and fighters will be the most prevalent. Will carriers be a thing? oh yeah, but will that carrier have a whole bung of weapons on it too? maybe not with everyone wanting a bit of the action. Battleships i think will be the most rare since they actually need a larger crew to keep systems and weapons working in a fight. During transit i can see players going into cryo sleep and a skeleton crew keeping the ship up. I am definitely interested in seeing how they will set up this multi crew system. Very different way of playing a game.

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Well if the Captain or engineer dont need to be at their post, then they can lend a hand at firing more of the guns. Situational awareness is important though. Have to see what they implement. I still feel like large multi crew ships are going to be pretty rare. 3-5 crew ships will be the norm, and fighters will be the most prevalent. Will carriers be a thing? oh yeah, but will that carrier have a whole bung of weapons on it too? maybe not with everyone wanting a bit of the action. Battleships i think will be the most rare since they actually need a larger crew to keep systems and weapons working in a fight. During transit i can see players going into cryo sleep and a skeleton crew keeping the ship up. I am definitely interested in seeing how they will set up this multi crew system. Very different way of playing a game.

There will probably be a scale whereby the bigger the ship the less guns you can have due to its size and needing that power for engines and such, or if you do put on a bunch of guns it'll be really slow and you sacrifice other elements, etc. Otherwise yeah it will be rather unbalanced if CvC just came down to an arms race to build the biggest ships.

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There will probably be a scale whereby the bigger the ship the less guns you can have due to its size and needing that power for engines and such, or if you do put on a bunch of guns it'll be really slow and you sacrifice other elements, etc. Otherwise yeah it will be rather unbalanced if CvC just came down to an arms race to build the biggest ships.

Hi.

 

Bigger guns rotate slower. This is not Star Citizen's WW2 in space.

 

EVE Online - where DU's combat system is originating into, the dynamic values on "dice rolls" to put it bluntly - has some major rules about ships.

 

 

1. " Do not fly what you can't afford to lose" - Translation : Do not put your bling on the line for mindlesss brawling.

 

2. " There's no right way to play the game" - Translation : A person's trick may not work for your playstyle.

 

3. " Bigger does not mean better" - Translation : Capital Size Guns and Ships, are meant to combat Capital Sized Targets.

 

 

You see, a 10 Ton Gauss Gun, won't be able to track a target at the same speed as a 1 Ton gun would. Bigger guns = meant for bigger targets.

 

People can be idiots and build giant sized ships with 100000000 Gauss Guns. They won't be able to hit a swarm of starfighters. Those Starfighters will kill that Super Battleship by taking out all those Gauss Guns one by one, cause the idiot who built the ship - and the idiots who bought the ship - didn't udnerstand how the game works or how REALITY WORKS.

 

So no, a battleship with many guns comes at a cost. Crew, logistics, fuel, ammunition (yes ammunition, :V ).

 

People have this feint notion that they will fly a 18 Km Titan in DU with 5 other guys. No you won't.

 

If an alliance builds a dreadnought that has battery racks of smaller sized turrets to combat smaller targets, and you engage said ship, then,YOU WILL FIND THE BRUTAL WAY WHY THAT SHIP CLASS IS CALLED DREADNOUGHT.

 

 

So no, it's not gonna be a race about "bigger ships". Your Battleships will still need smaller ships to protect it from smaller sized ships it can't possibly combat.

 

 

 

Likewise, you COULD put a Capital Sized Laser Beam Cannon on your Starfighter, rig a Capital Class Capacitor on that bad boy, and make it go like insane fast, so you can "track" a target, by shifting your entire ship to aim.

 

That's an acceptable - yet daring - fighting style. Your Capital Class Laser Beam on that starfighter, will probably MELT any small craft you cobmat. BUT, you probably have like 5 shots at max with that thing , since you don't got a generator to convert fuel into energy for you on that starfighter. 

 

It's a self-balanced process. The combat system NQ goes for guarantees this. And yes, IF you are a god of math, you can rotate your ship the right way, to reduce a person's tranversal speed so you can aim at them easier.

 

This is also how the actual navy (sorta) plans shots. Here's the math I personally use for figuring out my ship's maximum trasversal compensation.

 

Let's say you have a Railgun on your ship, it has 20000 meters Effective Range (it's a big and fast gun, actual railguns can hit intercontinental targets, which is mroe than 20000 meters distance :V, spoopy shit, look up Mach 7 Railgun on youtube. 'Murrica !) .

 

Your gun tracks at 4.2 degrees per second (it's a big big gun so it turns very very slow) That means by 2*pi*r magic, we get a circle around you which is your "effective surface".

 

Now, divide the circumference (I did the math no worries :D ) which is 125680 meters of circumference, by 360, and get a length around your maximum effective range ( which in a second will get really depressing to make a point ) which spans 1 degree of your "circle".

 

Now multiple it with 4.2 degrees, which is your tracking speed. That's 1466 meters per second speed you can track or "transversal" speed.

 

Here's the problem, my Vexor Navy Issue Cruiser can pump out 3000 meters per scond, so your Railgun won't even be remotely able to shoot me, cause I have TWICE the speed you can track.

 

 

But no wait, we took the math of the speed you can track at your MAXIMUM RANGE (which is your effectibe range). Let's get closer.

 

 

Let's say you don't fight a target at your comfortable 20000 meters of effective range with your super duper railgun. Let's say the target is now 5000 meters away.

 

Same math for finding the circumference, 2*pi*r we get 31420 meters of a circle around you, and at 4.2 degrees per second, you track 366 meters per second of speed. Yes, a LONG RANGE gun can't work in close quarters. In EVE, a sniper ship needs people to protect it, like actual snipers in real life have spotters to provide information and protect them if shit goes south. Look at Arma .now, and pul lyour hair out, as the "miltiary simulator" has no place for spotters in it, but EVE does? Lolzies, BD42 fans probably got triggleypuffed.

But regardless, now my VNI that goes at 3000 meters per second is at 5000 meters from you. I now got at nearly 9.5 times youir tracking speed. You are now having a SNOWBALL'S CHANCE IN HELL of hitting me with your super-duper railguns - either beign 1 or 1000 of them on a ship..

 

But, be not afraid, good pilots, know the ancient ninjutsu of "turn your ship manually". If I CHANGE vector, I can mitigate your angular velocity, by heading in the same way YOU are heading, thus reducing your angular velocity and tranversal in referrence to mine, THUS increasing my tracking speed. And well, In DU, you turn your ship manually, so, yey??? Possibly a script to compensate manually? O.o 

 

Similar to what Rey and Finn did in Force Awakens. The gun was jammed (no tracking speed of its own) so Rey flipped the ENTIRE ship to place the enemy Tie-Fighter in the gun's OPTIMAL range and tracking. Yes. that kind of wild shit is why people swear by EVE's combat system. and why if NQ does the exact same mathematical model GOOD pilots will shine in the game. Believe it or not, space combat will have math geniouses on the cockpit.

 

Takes alot of mental fortitude to actually figure this kind of shit as you fly. Most people just rely on "hard" numbers in EVE, like "hurr durr, get within XYZ range"  But then they get demolished by a pro who slingshots around them and just obliterates them.. 

 

But as Master Senpai Pilot Cybrex Alt Overlord said once "Transversals,: Keep track of them". 

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