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bastanold

Ships and the crew required

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On 14/07/2017 at 2:44 AM, Lord_Void said:

 

Oh my ... the assumptions ....

 

 

First off, there are almost 8,000 star systems in EVE, so that 30,000 rapidly turns into 3-4 people per system, often less. Compare that to DU where everyone will be in the same system for a while after launch. Even after a year or two, the DU game world will probably only have a dozen or so systems connected due to the expense and difficulty of building gates, so even 1600 ships would be 133ish ships per system assuming 12 systems.

 

 

Why is that a problem? If everyone wants to be a pilot then they could all fly single person ships and all be the pilots. Not every ship needs to be a six person cruiser, in fact having a variety of ship sizes in a fleet will probably be the norm.

 

 

Remember that there is a lot more to do in the game rather than fly around looking for fights, so if being on a ship isn't your thing there is lots of other stuff to do. That being said, I don't know where you keep getting the "sitting around for four hours waiting to push a button" thing ... see my previous posts for why that isn't relevant. 

 

I think Pang_Dread summed it up well.

And this is how we pretend to refute an argument while ignoring every point made

>Maths is an assumption
opinion discarded

 

 

On 14/07/2017 at 1:41 AM, Pang_Dread said:

LOTS of assumptions based on little to no information we have. In a sandbox game people create their own content and go to where others have created content. You keep using the "4 hours flying doing nothing" what? How does that even make sense. If you're looking for content for gameplay you're going to go where the action is not fly around at random doing nothing. Sandbox games are about creating content and meeting up to participate in that content. If you're just flying around for hours not finding anything, then yeah sorry you're not doing it right.

 

There will be all kinds of ships of different sizes and capabilities as there are different types of players and playstyles. Having played many MMOs over the years I can say with 100% accuracy that your "low percentage wants to play support secondary roles" is bs. or rather it wont be so low as you think it will be. I highly doubt support and crew roles will come down to "waiting 4 hours to click a button". Have only known about NQ for a short time but they don't at all appear to be as stupid as to think that is fun gameplay either, perhaps give then more credit and benefit of the doubt until at least we get more info on all how these systems will work. 

Maths are not assumptions, neither is history nor judging the market demographic of a game versus its acknowledged competitors, good luck running a business if you dont judge your playerbase as compared to your competition

 

On 14/07/2017 at 9:08 AM, DarkHorizon said:

I don't get where some people think that not everyone likes playing a support role.

 

If there's say a huge ground battle going on. I'm not going to be at the front lines, I'm going to be back at some base directing artillery fire from an orbital gun.

Exactly: Directing

You arent going to be carting ammo around, you arent going to be waiting on someone to shoot you to press R, you expect to be directing, for that to happen, someone has to *Want* to cart ammo around, they have to want, to do what you say, does anyone here have any business sense at all?

I want this game to last longer than a month

 

 

On 14/07/2017 at 6:14 AM, Thokan said:

Why should every single player have access to big ships? What use would a bigger warship even be for a single player or small group? Not for trading, prospecting, mining, exploring, transporting or other tasks/playstyles I would think individuals would dabble with.

 

As I see it, bigger ships are the mark of big organizations. Depending on how easy or hard they are crewed, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see the big ships but in Org vs Org battles/sieges/skirmishes - if not for the roaming hardcore 24/7 Pirate crews in their ganking barges :D

 

The assumption of standing fleets is also something I wouldn't really get behind before launch, by the way.

 

Because small organizations need to exist, rather than say, 3-4 big ones because no one can organize 100 people to fly ten ships

 


GAH this is making me mad, you guys have literally no idea how business works, if NQ releases crews like you guys seem to want, the game will be dead within the year, no new players will come to it, it will die, this isnt an assumption, this is fact, anyone with any experience in marketing will know that marketing yourself to an incredibly niche market, for example people willing to spend all day every day trying to work with people just to do one thing, while dismembering your ability to market towards the average consumer, especially when said consumer wants your product and especially when you need these people around for content in the first place is a terrible idea, its corporate suicide

And for anyone who doubts this, just look at the competition, in EvE there's mining, no one does it but a few exceptionally dedicated people who spend all day doing it, lets like at RR, the support role, that almost no one wants to play because it means not being able to shoot at things, everyone wants to be able to shoot at things, and when your game revolves around 90% of people not being able to shoot at things, why would anyone at all want to be that 90%, wheres the motivation, this is a really really stupid idea

and if crews are necessary, people will quit, that 10,000 becomes a smaller number, because its too intimidating for newbies to even consider joining in on, it will fail in a matter of months not years and god damn I dont want that, this could be amazing, I've been looking forward to this game since its inception, complicated and in depth is a good thing, but inaccessible is never a good thing, no matter what the game is

90% of the game wont be guys flying remote reps or mining, they'll be people wanting to fight, a lot of people will want to explore or do other things that arent combat related as well, but they'll want to be the ones doing that, not helping someone else do that, from what I've seen so far, the forums here make up a vocal minority of the people who in EvE would be the roleplay crowd, and this can be a great game for that, but in order to do that, the game has to actually have people playing it

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57 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

Because small organizations need to exist, rather than say, 3-4 big ones because no one can organize 100 people to fly ten ships

 


GAH this is making me mad, you guys have literally no idea how business works, if NQ releases crews like you guys seem to want, the game will be dead within the year, no new players will come to it, it will die, this isnt an assumption, this is fact, anyone with any experience in marketing will know that marketing yourself to an incredibly niche market, for example people willing to spend all day every day trying to work with people just to do one thing, while dismembering your ability to market towards the average consumer, especially when said consumer wants your product and especially when you need these people around for content in the first place is a terrible idea, its corporate suicide

And for anyone who doubts this, just look at the competition, in EvE there's mining, no one does it but a few exceptionally dedicated people who spend all day doing it, lets like at RR, the support role, that almost no one wants to play because it means not being able to shoot at things, everyone wants to be able to shoot at things, and when your game revolves around 90% of people not being able to shoot at things, why would anyone at all want to be that 90%, wheres the motivation, this is a really really stupid idea

and if crews are necessary, people will quit, that 10,000 becomes a smaller number, because its too intimidating for newbies to even consider joining in on, it will fail in a matter of months not years and god damn I dont want that, this could be amazing, I've been looking forward to this game since its inception, complicated and in depth is a good thing, but inaccessible is never a good thing, no matter what the game is

90% of the game wont be guys flying remote reps or mining, they'll be people wanting to fight, a lot of people will want to explore or do other things that arent combat related as well, but they'll want to be the ones doing that, not helping someone else do that, from what I've seen so far, the forums here make up a vocal minority of the people who in EvE would be the roleplay crowd, and this can be a great game for that, but in order to do that, the game has to actually have people playing it

 

But you are basing this off of assumptions, my friend.

A, that the supportive role will be "Pressing R", id est boring per definition, comparing it to mining in EvE.

B, that a player-built ship is universally better than smaller ones

C, 90% of people will want to constantly PvP in a voxel-based, crafting/building sci-fi MMO.

I am trying to tell you that bigger ships probably won't be as viable as you'd might think. That they would need screens and crews to be viable, thus limiting them to organizations. I'm guessing NQ will try to balance it to where three individuals on a ship might handle and direct as much firepower as three individuals in individual ships - the overall bonus and point to bigger ships is the overlook, focusing, and supportive role.

Also that playing a supportive role would prolly be more diverse and changeable than sitting on a spot "Pressing R", since that would indeed be boring and ineffective use of a person making me doubt NQ would implement it in such a way.

 

Furthermore, this game is a MMO and will host a variety of playstyles. Sure, PvP and Org versus Org will be a great focus of the game, but there will still be plenty of crafting, gathering, building and whatnot. Saying everybody wants to PvP all the time is more than far-fetched - it's absurd to anyone who have ever played a MMO

 

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27 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

And this is how we pretend to refute an argument while ignoring every point made

>Maths is an assumption

 

Wow nice comeback: "Lalalala I'm not listening"

 

Seems like I responded to most of your points. Seriously  though, if you think I missed one, feel free to name it so I can respond to it ....

 

33 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

opinion discarded

 

Your debate skills are fantastic. 

 

32 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

Maths are not assumptions

 

Funny because you just called my math an opinion but okay I guess when you say it it suddenly counts as a "fact".

 

35 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

Because small organizations need to exist, rather than say, 3-4 big ones because no one can organize 100 people to fly ten ships

"I exist therefore I need an aircraft carrier." I do not understand this point. Trolling aside, please explain this. How does not having access to large ships prevent small groups from existing?

 

40 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

GAH this is making me mad, you guys have literally no idea how business works

 

Okay kid. Whatever you say.

 

42 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

if NQ releases crews like you guys seem to want, the game will be dead within the year, no new players will come to it, it will die, this isnt an assumption, this is fact,

 

"Releases crews" lol. Crews are not some feature to be released, they are a natural extension of being able to build large ships. The more stuff you have on a ship, the more people you need to properly run it all. There isn't some feature from NQ saying "okay you need six people to fly this ship. Oh no, no one is in the mechanic seat ... I guess the ship can't fly." If you can get enough people to make it work then it works. And those are some pretty bold, committed predictions. No new players? Not even one? and 365 days of server time? Not 366? Well, I guess so ... I mean: It's a fact. 

 

49 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

marketing yourself to an incredibly niche market, for example people willing to spend all day every day trying to work with people just to do one thing, while dismembering your ability to market towards the average consumer, especially when said consumer wants your product and especially when you need these people around for content in the first place is a terrible idea, its corporate sui

 

This is the kind of stuff that tells me you are really just throwing things at the board to see if they stick. If the average consumer wants your product, doesn't that mean you're still appealing to them? The thing about niche markets (which I'm sure you already know since "anyone with any experience in marketing will know" this) is if you are serving a niche market you have to cater to that niche. You have to corner that small bit of the market with a product that only you can provide. If you can get some mass market appeal too, that's icing on the cake, but if you try to pursue mass market appeal you do two things: 1) you dilute your appeal to your niche and 2) you have to start competing with other mass market products. Think of it this way: imagine they focus on the first person shooter aspects of the game to appeal to more casual, adrenaline junkie styles of play (nothing wrong with games like that, I love shooter games). Once they do that, they have to compete against titles like Battlefield, Halo, Call of Duty, CS:GO, and they are just not going to stand a chance there. Meanwhile, players who joined for the more niche features (like building, mining or market things) will be shaking their heads at how the game is not what they thought it was going to be, and they will move to other niche games. 

 

Just look at EVE. They've made numerous changes over the last few years to make the game more "accessible" and more appealing. And every move like that they've made has driven the player count lower and lower because they are alienating their niche and not managing to compete at a mainstream level so they don't get new people. The goal should be to grow the niche not leave it. 

 

1 hour ago, Toecutter said:

everyone wants to be able to shoot at things, and when your game revolves around 90% of people not being able to shoot at things

 

Not everyone wants to shoot things. That's not even a reasonable assumption, you are literally just making up a number.

 

1 hour ago, Toecutter said:

when your game revolves around 90% of people not being able to shoot at things, why would anyone at all want to be that 90%, wheres the motivation, this is a really really stupid idea

 

Someone better tell Minecraft, CandyCrush and Farmville to add guns or they are never going to get any players .... 

 

In all seriousness though: I don't understand where you are getting this vision of the game's survival being solely dependent on people being able to fly large ships solo ... 

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What void said....

 

And additionally:

We all want DU to be successful but I don't want to play another generic, theme park korean mmo with the SAME mechanics. Pick up group mechanics (pug) are handy and nice and easy to use. But they're not special. EVERY game uses this so why the hell should DU use it too? Make it as boring as those games? Make it for braindead-afk users appealing? 

 

Why not go for a well balanced game where small groups can do tons of stuff, get their fights and get involved while bigger orgs (who are well organized) get an advantage in terms of ship size?

 

If someone wants to fly big ships or 've some kind of God on turrets - feel free to do so and join a big org. Or make your own. But don't expect the game to be the same for everyone, that's against a sandbox

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Just now, Lethys said:

What void said....

 

And additionally:

We all want DU to be successful but I don't want to play another generic, theme park korean mmo with the SAME mechanics. Pick up group mechanics (pug) are handy and nice and easy to use. But they're not special. EVERY game uses this so why the hell should DU use it too? Make it as boring as those games? Make it for braindead-afk users appealing? 

 

Why not go for a well balanced game where small groups can do tons of stuff, get their fights and get involved while bigger orgs (who are well organized) get an advantage in terms of ship size?

 

If someone wants to fly big ships or 've some kind of God on turrets - feel free to do so and join a big org. Or make your own. But don't expect the game to be the same for everyone, that's against a sandbox

Sounds well balanced and very inviting

Welp, there goes my hope in this

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2 minutes ago, Toecutter said:

Sounds well balanced and very inviting

Welp, there goes my hope in this

If you don't tell us what bothers you with that vision there, we can't help u.

 

Guess you don't care so much for DU then

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4 hours ago, Toecutter said:

GAH this is making me mad, you guys have literally no idea how business works, if NQ releases crews like you guys seem to want, the game will be dead within the year, no new players will come to it, it will die, this isnt an assumption, this is fact, anyone with any experience in marketing will know that marketing yourself to an incredibly niche market, for example people willing to spend all day every day trying to work with people just to do one thing, while dismembering your ability to market towards the average consumer, especially when said consumer wants your product and especially when you need these people around for content in the first place is a terrible idea, its corporate suicide

 

4 hours ago, Toecutter said:

Exactly: Directing

You arent going to be carting ammo around, you arent going to be waiting on someone to shoot you to press R, you expect to be directing, for that to happen, someone has to *Want* to cart ammo around, they have to want, to do what you say, does anyone here have any business sense at all?

I want this game to last longer than a month

3

 

Lets take both of these into consideration here and look at the societies and economies of today...

 

Who wants to flip burgers? Who wants to dry cars after they're washed? Who wants to do a quality control check on this car frame that just came off the line? Who wants to take this person's order? Who wants to do customer service? Who wants to check a boarding pass? Who wants to make beds? Who wants to sauter a point on a circuit board? Who wants to pick up mail? Who wants to repair those pipes? Who wants to shingle that roof? Who wants to check this computer code? Who wants to like something on social media? Who wants to operate this elevator/lift? Who wants to manually unsubscribe someone from a mailing list? Who wants to label this mail? Who wants to walk around to make sure the place isn't on fire? Oh god, who wants to watch the fax machine? Who wants to sort these papers? Who wants to staple these papers? Who wants to be a night watchman? "Cleanup on aisle four". Who wants to spin a revolving door? Who wants to carry in peoples luggage? Who wants to lick envelopes? Who wants to hold a sign in 90-degree heat? Who wants to collect tolls? Who wants to make boxes?

 

Sir, I don't know who you are and odds are we'll never see each other in our lifetimes. I live in a small town of fifty-some thousand people and while that seems like a lot from just one single point of view, compare it to metros like Chicago and LA that can house upwards of two-million people. Sure my town has a fortieth of the population 1/40 is still a pretty small fraction.

 

The list of jobs I have just given were all the things I could rattle off the top of my head that I knew existed in my town. I betcha if I lived in a metro, this list would be much more expensive... These are all jobs that need to be done so that many of the great things in society can have a chance at existing. What might seem trivial to you would mean a meager wage and food on the table for some war vet still hoping for the future.

 

I get it. No one wants to mop up shit. To anyone who finds joy in cleaning up human excrement, I salute you and wish you all the best because you have a really, really shitty job.

 

If no one cleaned up that crap, Walmart wouldn't be in business. If no one flipped those burgers, McDonald's would go bankrupt. If no one at FedEx sorted that mail, your mailbox would be forever empty. If no one repaired the pipes, skyscrapers and water towers (believe it or not those things play a part in providing you with tap water) wouldn't fill with water so that means no toilets and you're 90 stories up. If no one flagged in construction sites, you wouldn't get to work on time and traffic would be backed up forever. If the AmericanAirlines girl didn't check your boarding pass, good luck Chuck, you're stuck. If no one at Ford or GM, or Chrysler checked the car frames for defects, they would have needed a bailout a heck of a long time ago. And if NQ didn't check it's code, we wouldn't have DU, but worst of all if no one at Microsoft checked the code for their OS, we'd all be on Linux. 

 

3133776.gif

 

I get it. No one wants to do some trivial and repetitive task. I implore you though to look around you, mundane tasks are everywhere. If people didn't do these tasks, society would come to a screeching halt faster than you can sneeze in a dusty room. How are CEOs supposed to exist at the top without mobs of people filing paperwork at the bottom? Without those people, there would be no CEO, there would be no business, there would be no jobs, there would be no money. If there is no money, there is no economy. If there is no economy then nothing has value. If nothing has no value then the barter system doesn't exist. If there is no bartering then we're back to throwing rocks at each other. If we're back to throwing rocks at each other then that means we're back to biblical times. Let's not do that because I failed religion class!

 

Okay, the majority of that last paragraph was just senseless rambling and me sowing random things together. Do you get where I'm coming from though? If you don't have a strong base to work on top of, then everything will fall apart and the top of the pyramid will not exist. We have CEO's, and we have document sorters. We have organization leaders, and we have organization followers.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of boring stuff to do out there, but if you want to succeed in this game and let alone in life, sometimes you gotta do the boring stuff.

 

The truth is a bitter pill to swallow. Looking back at it, that one line summarizes my entire post. Do you want to know another truth? It's pretty much a fact.

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orginal[

Hallo Leute,

ich denke es gibt eine Möglichkeit Schiffe mit Besatzung zu spielen ohne die Konsistens des Universums in DU zu stören.

Da von NQ die Stargate's sowieso eingeführt werden sollen, könnte man Gate's für eine Person auf Raumschiffen und Welten zulassen.

Damit besteht die Möglichkeit auf Komandoschiffen die Besatzung situationsabhängig zu erhöhen oder zu reduzieren, so das die Spieler mehrer Aufgaben (hintereinander) machen können. Geht ein Spieler offline und ist noch auf dem Schiff, so befindet er sich im Schlaf. Ist kein Spieler auf dem Schiff wach, so ist das Schiff führerlos (alle Agregate im letzten Zustand).

]orginal
google-englisch[

Hi Guys,
I think there is a possibility to play ships with crew without disturbing the consistencies of the universe in DU.
Since NQ's Stargate's should be introduced anyway, one could allow gate's for a person on spaceships and worlds.
Thereby the possibility exists on Comandships the crew to increase or reduce depending on the situation, so that the players several tasks (behind each other) can make. If a player goes offline and is still on the ship, he is in his sleep. If no player is awake on the ship, the ship is guideless (all agregates in the last state).
]google-englisch

 

mfG Die Waldfee
 

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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 5:53 AM, Toecutter said:

Sounds well balanced and very inviting

Welp, there goes my hope in this

That's sandbox gameplay though... Balance is relative to specific individual mechanics and systems not the game as a whole like sounds like you want. What you want sounds like a hand holdy homogenous game where everyone can do everything the second they log in for the first time. Yeah that'll sell well...

 

Plus again like I said there will be many different types of players, Some like commanding and crewing/supporting large crew ships, some will like using small single man ships and some will like playing support of all kinds of types, that's part of the experience and what is used most and how is determined by the players. The Dev gives us the sand and some tools to use but the rest is on us.

 

Bottom line just seems like your real issue is you either don't like or understand sandbox games, that's fine but doesn't mean there's anything wrong per say with the actual game.

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On 7/15/2017 at 5:53 AM, Toecutter said:

Sounds well balanced and very inviting

Welp, there goes my hope in this

It seems that you have not grasped the concept of the game yet. I would describe it as a civilization builder highly connected with farming and politic building. pvp would be a mini game for you to take a break from the core game play. Look at ARK, Mine craft, Dark & Light. These are all sandbox games that give you the ability to pvp but the majority of the players rather just build big bases and be creative, and if some troll comes along messing with people pull out their op secret weapon to dispose of them quickly.

 

I can tell you right now. if you are looking for a game like chromehounds where you can customize your ships to be any size and specific weapons then take them out into space in a pvp match you are looking at the wrong game. 90% of anyones time is going to be in farming resources to build stuff. I can confidently say that as a single person it would take you months of grinding to build a huge spaceship like you are wanting.

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1 hour ago, TrueSkillz said:

It seems that you have not grasped the concept of the game yet. I would describe it as a civilization builder highly connected with farming and politic building. pvp would be a mini game for you to take a break from the core game play. Look at ARK, Mine craft, Dark & Light. These are all sandbox games that give you the ability to pvp but the majority of the players rather just build big bases and be creative, and if some troll comes along messing with people pull out their op secret weapon to dispose of them quickly.

 

I can tell you right now. if you are looking for a game like chromehounds where you can customize your ships to be any size and specific weapons then take them out into space in a pvp match you are looking at the wrong game. 90% of anyones time is going to be in farming resources to build stuff. I can confidently say that as a single person it would take you months of grinding to build a huge spaceship like you are wanting.

 

The fact that you compare this game to games not PvP-centered does not make DU all about crafting. Heck, those games aren't even MMOs (except maybe that Dark and Light one, looks like a weird mix between a traditional grindfest MMO and ARK) and offer to perspective on the massive Org vs. Org PvP meta that might occur in DU because of it's scale and PvP elements.

 

Yes, a lot of time will be spent on crafting and resource gathering for most people. PvP will however not be a "minigame to take a break" in this Sandbox MMO PvP Game, but instead a core element - at least certainly for the bigger organizations.

 

Sometimes I get the feeling people forget this is a MMO.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Thokan said:

 

The fact that you compare this game to games not PvP-centered does not make DU all about crafting. Heck, those games aren't even MMOs (except maybe that Dark and Light one, looks like a weird mix between a traditional grindfest MMO and ARK) and offer to perspective on the massive Org vs. Org PvP meta that might occur in DU because of it's scale and PvP elements.

 

Yes, a lot of time will be spent on crafting and resource gathering for most people. PvP will however not be a "minigame to take a break" in this Sandbox MMO PvP Game, but instead a core element - at least certainly for the bigger organizations.

 

Sometimes I get the feeling people forget this is a MMO.

 

 

ark is pvp centered. people just dont want to waste thousands of hours they spend grinding mats to a stupid fight that might last a few hours.

 

if you think that large orgs are going to risk thousands of hours of materials and design of a ship to fight another large org you are mistaken. nobody will ever fight a fair fight. and with all the orgs forming alliances even before alpha there is going to be a lack of pvp. play any other sand box game and tell me how much pvp you actually get? not much. other then the super large groups dicking with people that cant even defend them selves. or the lone wolf looking to pick people off that are not even paying attention. the fact that construct vs construct wasnt even planned initial and was an extended goal tends to side with my logic on the game.

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1 hour ago, TrueSkillz said:

if you think that large orgs are going to risk thousands of hours of materials and design of a ship to fight another large org you are mistaken. nobody will ever fight a fair fight. and with all the orgs forming alliances even before alpha there is going to be a lack of pvp

This may be true for some groups, but certainly not all. I am the head diplomat for Band of Outlaws (the 2nd largest group currently) and we largely have PvP as one of our core attractions. We very much intend to expend a large amount of resources fighting other groups, either in full wars or fun skirmishes. We also shun the idea of too many alliances, wanting to avoid the "blue donut" as we call it. 

 

the fact that construct vs construct wasnt even planned initial and was an extended goal tends to side with my logic on the game.

 

It was planned for after release, but now that that stretch goal was hit it will be available at release instead of a few months after release. 

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I have the feeling that until the game/community grows more, bigger ships may be possible but not profitable.

 

It's easier to get 100 people into fighters/bombers feeling all bada*# for a fight then just a hand full of bigger ships. I'm sure there will be many smaller multicrew ships but battleship/cruiser+ is asking for a lot of commitment. Manpower, resources and manning are probably going to be the limits. Not restrictions set by NQ.

 

I'm willing to bet that many orgs will be Building massive ships. Unfortunately the first org to complete such an undertaking will be the first one to LOSE it. From my experience in other MMO s it's better for a clan/org to have steady progression then to do one massive project that may fail as soon as it's finished.

 

Edit: Sorry for rambling a bit. My biggest point is Eve's golden rule "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose". Every noobie hears it and almost every noobie disregards this until they feel the pain of loss.

Edited by Ezghoul
Clarification

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Anyone who wants their ship to have NPCs crewing it, is a carebear. 

In Band of Outlaws, we hunt down carebears. Their tears sustain Cybrex's beard lotion. 

 

@Ezghoul sure thing, it's easier to put 1000 people in Fighters (bombers have crews, it's no longer WW1, Bombers are not solo flown). Guess what, your fighter's pewp ew 50mm Autocannon won't even phase the 1 GigaWatt supplied EM Screen of a battleship. Capital Ships, are meant to battle capital ships. Star Wars or Star Citizen, are as unrealistic as they can get in regards to space dogfights. You have more of a shot by boarding an enemy battleship than sending 1000 Fighters to their doom.

 

Also, here's the beef of the situation. in games like EVE Online (the only game able to compare with DU on an MMO standpoint), an alliance of 8000 people haas segmented portions of its players. Industry, Warfare, Citizens, etcetera.

In Warfare, there are scouts, logistics (healer or repair ships) and of course, WolfPack (ships that lock down biggerships) and then, there's my kind of jazz, Black Ops.

 

One "org" won't build a capital ship. That takes a lot of logistics, like mining, refining ,shipping, building ,security and a lot other things, including, but not limited to, proper management.

 

So, a solo organisation in DU, has more chance at being "Ground Forces" than actually being "nation". Nations are built by conglorisation, not by "we say we are superpower, we are nation".

 

Good points though you put up, in stark contrast with others on this thread. 

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@CaptainTwerkmotor actually you explained what I was trying to convey. I completely agree.

 

Just because something is possible, doesn't mean you should rush to get it done.

 

Once again I'll point to Eve as a reference. The first group to build a Titan (Named Steve) got it blown up shortly afterwards (a few months later). 

 

History does repeat itself..... Hopefully people recognize the implications of this.

Edited by Ezghoul
Accuracy and Removed ramblings

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@Ezghoul

 

Sort of, but yeah, Capital-sized ships, need capital-sized logistics. I expect 5-man "parties" to run out of Frigates, with Destroyers being the 10-man variant and so on. Tha'ts how group PVP is going to be like I think. And it's a good model, you fight as a cohesive unit? You win. You don't? It shows. It's the assymetrica lwarfare that makes PVP itneresting.

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19 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

This may be true for some groups, but certainly not all. I am the head diplomat for Band of Outlaws (the 2nd largest group currently) and we largely have PvP as one of our core attractions. We very much intend to expend a large amount of resources fighting other groups, either in full wars or fun skirmishes. We also shun the idea of too many alliances, wanting to avoid the "blue donut" as we call it. 

 

 

It was planned for after release, but now that that stretch goal was hit it will be available at release instead of a few months after release. 

I did not realize it was planned after realease. kinda knew to the whole kickstarter goals system with games. I agree with you that there will be some that love and will enjoy the trade offs of pvp. the problem is if everyone gets allied up it will make it hard. eventually it will be the fighters vs the non fighters and be a huge war. which neither side really benifits from. this is just my opinions bases on other sandbox games that just let people do what ever they want. 

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On 02/08/2017 at 9:51 PM, TrueSkillz said:

ark is pvp centered. people just dont want to waste thousands of hours they spend grinding mats to a stupid fight that might last a few hours.

 

if you think that large orgs are going to risk thousands of hours of materials and design of a ship to fight another large org you are mistaken. nobody will ever fight a fair fight. and with all the orgs forming alliances even before alpha there is going to be a lack of pvp. play any other sand box game and tell me how much pvp you actually get? not much. other then the super large groups dicking with people that cant even defend them selves. or the lone wolf looking to pick people off that are not even paying attention. the fact that construct vs construct wasnt even planned initial and was an extended goal tends to side with my logic on the game.

 

Meh, still. Private server hosted Crafting-Survival games like ARK and Conan Exiles, and what not, are terrible examples for comparing with MMOs. The whole dimension of the scale is lost.

 

Why would they accrue that material if not to defend their territory and acquire more? For most large organizations this will be the main goal. Large organization versus organization PvP. That is, argueably, the end-game of an Open World Sandbox Game with Claims and PvP.

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im not saying pvp is not going to happen but the majority of people are not going to pvp. even in a large org vs org fight. the minority of that org is actually participating in pvp. it really depends on what incentive do you have to pvp. like can you take over their ship? its going to come down to risk reward system. does the reward of fighting this other ship out weigh the risk.

 

until we actually see how much of a grind making ships and other constructs is you cant really say how much pvp there is going to be. everyone is going to want to pvp until they spend a week getting their ship all setup to lose it in a short pvp match.

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I think you are mistaken. Most people will end up being involved with PvP combat at some point. That's just the nature of the game. If you aren't trying to initiate then you will be trying to defend your stuff

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2 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

I think you are mistaken. Most people will end up being involved with PvP combat at some point. That's just the nature of the game. If you aren't trying to initiate then you will be trying to defend your stuff

 

This, and while Risk/Reward is something many will consider, there will be an equal number who will PVP whether it's worth it or not just because they want a fight. I wasted hours a night with hundreds of other space nerds to only get one pretty explosion out of it, or for us all to wipe our own ships and start over. We still did it, and we still put up with all the nuances that lead up to it, even if the reward probably seemed pointless in the end. 

 

PVP will be common place in areas where PVP is allowed and where players are at, if you think otherwise, then good luck. 

 

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I personally think large ships will start off being respawn point and carriers for smaller one manned ships. 

 

I also believe large combat ships will have multipliers for crew for each station.

 

Main systems and sub systems will keep those players busy. Power distribution from main systems then sub system management for each individual system. Helm will be screaming for more power to manoeuvre. They'll be putting their allocated power into speed, handing, manoeuvring. Ops will be managing shields swapping out models to get the best resistance based on what is hitting them. Rotating power to sections of shields.

 

If you want an example try playing Pulsar. I don't expect it to be as in depth as Pulsar at release though. 

 

 

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No AI so just make sure you have enough people to man your crew and maybe a few to run a round the ship doing repairs !  This should be interesting and fun !

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It will be interesting to see how this discussion progresses as we get closer to beta.

 

We have a very small community active on the forums at present, and I suspect that many of them are organisation-oriented, because orgs take advance planning. The lone-wolves and small-group players will tend to become active much later.

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