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Death and all its consequences, food for thought? (Continued with latest info)

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can you quote where you did read that on death you ll loose your inventory?

 

thought DU wont be survival oriented, and only transported physical storages could be looted

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can you quote where you did read that on death you ll loose your inventory?

thought DU wont be survival oriented, and only transported physical storages could be looted

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10000-kickstarter-ama-event-first-part/?p=32186

 

 

 

You are target numero duo. ;)

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Actually, it says it here: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/9994-open-discussion-dac-being-lootableunlootable/?hl=death

 

"Regarding character death, the current game design (it might change) is the following: When a character dies, it will loose all he has in his inventory. A part will be destroyed. The other part will be lootable."

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As to punishments for the killer, those should be player driven (with bounties or word of mouth reputation). There is no reason for intrinsic punishments for the killer. The game world is not watched over by some omniscient entity which punishes people who violate it's code of ethics (that would be religion and a whole other can of worms). It's up to the player's to provide consequences for people's actions in game.

Thats a very good way to look at it.

There is indeed no real code of ethics baked into the game.

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I've got a thought for this, and I am pretty sure they mentioned it on a dev blog at one point with regards to Resurrection Nodes.

 

-Resurrection Nodes have to re-charge before you can re-spawn there again, that respawn time depends on the quality of reactor/fuel tank attached to it and its construct.

 

There is effectively a timer system for re-spawning. If your base's resurrection not is not fully charged when you die again, that is where it isn't fully clear. I remember there being potentially two ways this works out: your character loses some EXP when they re-spawn at a partially-charged Resurrection Node, and only when it is at a certain minimum charge amount. You re-spawn at the nearest fully charged Resurrection node if no partially charged nodes are charged enough (and this means the Arkship if you just have the one node placed).

 

The wiki mentions charged Resurrection nodes, but not EXP loss, so I'm fairly certain the dev's haven't made a decision on this one yet. Here is my two cents.

 

Excessive character deaths in a short time should lead to loss of EXP, and there should be ways to prevent it. A player should be able to "wait" to respawn to prevent loss of EXP, and this shouldn't kick in until after already Re-spawning at a node once in a play session. This prevents players from stashing some weapons somewhere, and without a ship, attacking players nonstop as just their character over and over again. How annoying would it be to have to stay logged on to prevent your new home from being grieved by a player who is fine with getting killed repeatedly until you log off? If the aggressor just equips a throw-away weapon and just enough ammo to be a nuisance, they won't drop anything of consequence, and if their Res node is well supplied with energy, they can simply zerg rush a station repeatedly until either its automated weapons run out of ammo, or until the actual players defending it have to go to bed.

 

Some substantial penalty should exist to prevent this kind of play, and an EXP penalty for excessive deaths would be the way to go. Assuming there is a way for a player to avoid that penalty (for example, if an aggressor is in their base trying to spawn-kill them) by waiting for the penalty timer to wear off, or if the timer is related to the charge rate of the Res node, but still has a pretty decent minimum-time that gets longer with each death within a 24 hour period, that should be enough to make that kind of tactic impractical.

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You can steal ships. Your arguement is invalid. :V

 

Sure.  You can steal a ship. You can steal equipment. But it does not give the same triple punch death does of losing ship AND equipment AND being rez'd somewhere far away without said stuff.

 

Thing is, any automatic system that "punishes" a killer can be turned on its head and used to target "non-killers" by tricking the victim to do a killing and then hitting them with whatever system is in place. The bounty system is an example.  Nothing prevents a pirate from putting bounties on a victim they attacked but then the victim killed the pirate while defending themselves. I hope bounties have a time limit.

 

I have played other MMOs that do have the skill loss on death built in.  It didn't add anything to the game. Players took the same risks and otherwise played the same.  Skill loss adds no value.

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Sure.  You can steal a ship. You can steal equipment. But it does not give the same triple punch death does of losing ship AND equipment AND being rez'd somewhere far away without said stuff.

 

Thing is, any automatic system that "punishes" a killer can be turned on its head and used to target "non-killers" by tricking the victim to do a killing and then hitting them with whatever system is in place. The bounty system is an example.  Nothing prevents a pirate from putting bounties on a victim they attacked but then the victim killed the pirate while defending themselves. I hope bounties have a time limit.

 

I have played other MMOs that do have the skill loss on death built in.  It didn't add anything to the game. Players took the same risks and otherwise played the same.  Skill loss adds no value.

You disregarded my arguement on "PKers should get to lose MORE skillpoints". And that bonus of skillpoints loss should be on a timer, like, a week, unless the guy or gal keeps killing people, in which case the PK meter caps at a certain SP loss maximum.

 

A miner would not suffer from the same SP loss as a PKer who has 50,000,000 spacebucks worth of a bounty. Plus, in a zone that has a resurrection node, the skillpoints loss chance wil lbe minimal, so there's the home advantage of people not losing skillpoints if they are in their home system.

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I am advocating no skill loss at all.  Quibbling over how much is lost is meaningless.

 

An automatic system that attempts to divine intent is doomed to fail and be abused. How will such a system know the difference between a pirate mowing down miners and a security force preemptively destroying a group of pirates on the way to a juicy vessel?

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I am advocating no skill loss at all.  Quibbling over how much is lost is meaningless.

 

An automatic system that attempts to divine intent is doomed to fail and be abused. How will such a system know the difference between a pirate mowing down miners and a security force preemptively destroying a group of pirates on the way to a juicy vessel?

 

Would you be opposed to EXP loss when a player dies repeatedly in a short time? It seems to me that a system where EXP penalties only kick in when a player dies many times in a short period of time would only penalize players that are doing suicide runs.

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Would you be opposed to EXP loss when a player dies repeatedly in a short time? It seems to me that a system where EXP penalties only kick in when a player dies many times in a short period of time would only penalize players that are doing suicide runs.

 

Like when a group is desperately trying to defend their town against invaders and they have working rez nodes in town that they are somehow managing to defend?  This kind of system would hurt defenders the most.

 

So no. Still not a good idea.

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Thing is, any automatic system that "punishes" a killer can be turned on its head and used to target "non-killers" by tricking the victim to do a killing and then hitting them with whatever system is in place. The bounty system is an example.  Nothing prevents a pirate from putting bounties on a victim they attacked but then the victim killed the pirate while defending themselves. I hope bounties have a time limit.

 

Must of been a typo - I'm sure you meant Law Enforcement, not Pirates. And "resisted arrest" not "defending themselves".

 

There are a few things that usually prevent a Pirate from putting out bounties. Two examples:

 

  1. Pirates tend to leave victims alive with ships intact. You don't want to discourage trade, just make it risky.
  2. Pirates tend to not like spending the money they just made from a victim to pay someone to kill the victim for fighting back. Terrible business model.

(The above is just proving a point and should not be taken as more than that - Because really you meant "griefers and power grovers" - who could be anyone, from any profession, who abuses the system like a petulant child rather than simply playing in the spirit of the game - i.e. the role playing part, where you don't walk around putting bounties on anyone who looks at you sideways, just in case they attack you...)

 

 

 

How will such a system know the difference between a pirate mowing down miners and a security force preemptively destroying a group of pirates on the way to a juicy vessel?

 

What if those miners are resource stripping an area for some faceless Corp, squeezing out little independent miners and what you call pirates are really just people trying to feed their families.

 

The real issue with "divining intent" is it's based on one groups morals, not everyone's as long as you keep framing it like that.

 

(Other than that - I agree - skill loss never sits well with me. The opposite in fact should be the case - you should GAIN xp from dying (BUT NOT REPEATEDLY, TO PREVENT ABUSE) while losing gear. Because you learned from that mistake didn't you? :) )

 

I'm also a big supporter of people losing limbs, maiming and injury as a penalty for death. Gives medics, cyberdocs etc an entire industry to start.

 

And can you all stop posing so fast! This ain't discord!

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Like when a group is desperately trying to defend their town against invaders and they have working rez nodes in town that they are somehow managing to defend?  This kind of system would hurt defenders the most.

 

So no. Still not a good idea.

Are you actively ignoring my suggestions? The defenders have the upper hand, they have a rez node, the invaders, will probably not have (Res Nodes take time to charge up). So no, this system won't hurt the invaders that much, it will probably be very insignificant. The invaders will be screwed tho, but hey, they are imperialists, so they got what they deserved.

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Like when a group is desperately trying to defend their town against invaders and they have working rez nodes in town that they are somehow managing to defend?  This kind of system would hurt defenders the most.

 

So no. Still not a good idea.

It would hurt defenders that die over and over again, yes. If defenders are having to resort to a suicide run strategy to defend a structure, it should be taken by the attacker, or the defenders should be penalized. Not penalizing suicide run tactics encourages sloppy and immersive play.

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I'm also a big supporter of people losing limbs, maiming and injury as a penalty for death. Gives medics, cyberdocs etc an entire industry to start.

 

I have no problem with injuries. That would be thematic as all hell. Injuries could be sustained before death and carry over through death.  This very much adds a medic/healer element. Also an attacker could just leave the person they just attacked broken and injured in the corner.  Rez node spammers without proper medical attention will also be severely hampered.

 

It would hurt defenders that die over and over again, yes. If defenders are having to resort to a suicide run strategy to defend a structure, it should be taken by the attacker, or the defenders should be penalized. Not penalizing suicide run tactics encourages sloppy and immersive play.

You say sloppy. I say valiant last stand against the evil empire.  They are having their last stronghold wiped off the face of the planet, nullifying their org AND you want to take away their skill points.

 

Ok, I am over dramatizing it but you get the picture.

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I have no problem with injuries. That would be thematic as all hell. Injuries could be sustained before death and carry over through death. This very much adds a medic/healer element. Also an attacker could just leave the person they just attacked broken and injured in the corner. Rez node spammers without proper medical attention will also be severely hampered.

 

You say sloppy. I say valiant last stand against the evil empire. They are having their last stronghold wiped off the face of the planet, nullifying their org AND you want to take away their skill points.

 

Ok, I am over dramatizing it but you get the picture.

Again, they only would take a hit if they respawn multiple times in a short time period. An org coupd have a valiant past stand, respawn, have another last stand, and then have a choice of either respawing and taking a penalty, or waiting for their timer to re-set and hoping there is enough still to defend. A valiant stand can still be a good strategic last stand. Plus in your analogy, what is happening to the attackers? If the attacking force is has the defenders so outmatch that they are not suffering casualties, then it simply should prevail.

 

On the other side of that coin, what if an attacking ship lands near your base, but too far to launch a counter attack. Their ship has a respawn node, and the attackers simply re-spawn and suicide run your base with expendable weapons over and over again, not being penalized by their recklessness. Your automated defenses should be more than sufficient to mow down poorlu equipped foot soldiers, but since they don't lose any xp for their suicide runs, eventually your defenses run out of ammo and they can take their time cutting into your base and disabling your TU.

 

Depending on how the res nodes work, an attacking force of two players could spend an afternoon disabling large a base just because getting killed in rapid succession doesn't penalize them.

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So now skill loss on death is now meant to curb mass suicide runs? There are much better ways of handling that.  One is by having the rez nodes take a while to charge up which was mentioned somewhere before.

 

Though what I would find funny is if JC reveals that they are adding skill loss on death. I will have to eat my proverbial hat.

 

I simply do not see the need for skill loss on death.  There are much more elegant solutions that actually encourage game play rather than stifling it.

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I'm all for skill loss upon death. It gives people extra incentive to not die, and it makes combat more... visceral (i dunno if that's the word I'm looking for). If you lose skill points when you die, you aren't gonna pull any stupid attacks, thus bringing about more emergent tactics. It also works with the lore or rez nodes (assuming I remember it correctly) where it's like a quantum teleportation of your person into being at the rez node. If this is the case, then it'd make sense that your brain prolly won't get put back together exactly the way it should be, thus causing loss of knowledge.

 

I did see someone say that you should *gain* some experience from death, on which, to an extent, I agree. Mayhaps once a day, or a week, or something, if you die, your character gains experience or a perk in a certain skill tree based upon the cause of their death that works towards rectifying that. It could be useful, or not quite so much depending on how you look at it. Say, if you stepped on a mine and got blown to bits, your character walks more slowly now for say... 6 hours, but if you've got a 5% higher chance of noticing mines or something. Some temporary perk, so that the system won't be extremely broken. And you can only get one of these temporary perks once a week or so. Call it Combat Experience.

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So now skill loss on death is now meant to curb mass suicide runs? There are much better ways of handling that. 

 

Guns. Lots and lots of guns. A buttload of guns. (Actually, more than 126 gallons of guns even!!!) Did I mention guns? Because that's how you curb mass suicide runs. Guns. And harsh language. Pointy sticks and rocks can also help. But yeah.

 

Guns.  

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In my opinion, there shouldn't be any game-mechanic penalties for murder, however there should be a chance of losing skills when dying so RNs aren't used as teleporters and folks don't Leroy Jenkins all the time.  Crime and punishment are typically handled by governments.  The issue is different than real life as people come back and can sometimes identify their killer; however there should be a game mechanic that allows the killer to be identified through analysis of the crime scene.  Perhaps the RN stores a video of the moments before someone is killed, but there's a chance that the image gets corrupted that increases the further the distance between the death and the RN.  There could also be black market tech that increases the odds that the image will be scrambled.  

 

Of course if the person who gets killed got a look at the killer before the resurrect, then they can report them to the cops or put out a bounty on their own, but if we're responsible for building the civilization, it's basically the wild west until we get players who are willing to be the government and law enforcement.  Government and law is what make civilization possible... say you kill someone in the Lunar Republic and you hop over the border to the Solar Empire.  Is there an extradition treaty?  Will Lunar authorities raid across the border to grab the criminal?  Will they hire a bounty hunter?  Will the victim hire a bounty hunter, or perhaps register a grievance and seek to settle the score personally (and legally according to the law of the Lunar Republic?)  

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That's why I hate to love you, ye scallywag, you pick up on nice comesbacks ^_^ (some of the times).

 

And it's a secret. Lucky numero uno is a secret :)

 

i ll find him, use him as a bait and use him to make you come to me

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In my opinion, there shouldn't be any game-mechanic penalties for murder, however there should be a chance of losing skills when dying so RNs aren't used as teleporters and folks don't Leroy Jenkins all the time.  Crime and punishment are typically handled by governments.  The issue is different than real life as people come back and can sometimes identify their killer; however there should be a game mechanic that allows the killer to be identified through analysis of the crime scene.  Perhaps the RN stores a video of the moments before someone is killed, but there's a chance that the image gets corrupted that increases the further the distance between the death and the RN.  There could also be black market tech that increases the odds that the image will be scrambled.  

 

Of course if the person who gets killed got a look at the killer before the resurrect, then they can report them to the cops or put out a bounty on their own, but if we're responsible for building the civilization, it's basically the wild west until we get players who are willing to be the government and law enforcement.  Government and law is what make civilization possible... say you kill someone in the Lunar Republic and you hop over the border to the Solar Empire.  Is there an extradition treaty?  Will Lunar authorities raid across the border to grab the criminal?  Will they hire a bounty hunter?  Will the victim hire a bounty hunter, or perhaps register a grievance and seek to settle the score personally (and legally according to the law of the Lunar Republic?)  

 

A Leroy Jenkins reference AND and understanding of the fundamentals of international relations and law?

 

I like you already.

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I share the opinion that death is penalizing enough right now.

 

Their may be cases where the death system could be exploited but the solution should not be with the death system that will hindered thousands of non abusive player  but with limiting the things facilitating the exploitation.

 

For example :

- Resurrection nodes, one could exploit the death system to teleport and such, the solution is to limit the resurrection nodes
- Bounty system : one could exploit the death system by sharing the reward of the bounty with the contracted by facilitating his death, the solution lie then with limiting the contract so that only trusted entities can be contracted (the player has the possibility to choose these entities).
- Etc.. for other abuses

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I share the opinion that death is penalizing enough right now.

 

Their may be cases where the death system could be exploited but the solution should not be with the death system that will hindered thousands of non abusive player  but with limiting the things facilitating the exploitation.

 

For example :

- Resurrection nodes, one could exploit the death system to teleport and such, the solution is to limit the resurrection nodes

- Bounty system : one could exploit the death system by sharing the reward of the bounty with the contracted by facilitating his death, the solution lie then with limiting the contract so that only trusted entities can be contracted (the player has the possibility to choose these entities).

- Etc.. for other abuses

This is the right way. As one who have never been fond of open world pvp sandbox, because i risk getting killed a lot just so that i can get from A to B or to do something fun, loosing skill points because you had a trade route would just feel like punishing the weak and the unlucky even more. Like if i have just been hired to escort someone i die due to pirates and find out i lost some xp. in the future i would only do such jobs on a secondary no-good character to take risks, make money and send it to my main character. That would be far from immersive.

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