[NQ YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT SHIPS REALLY!]

Hehe best post I've read for ages GK ??

[Market Analysis]

This is awesome! Thank you. I'll get my stat hat on tomorrow and get sifting through it ?

[[Discuss] We've Heard You!]

On 12/17/2020 at 4:25 AM, GraXXoR said:

It beggars belief that JC still has bots in the game...

 

bots giving out free money, bots buying ore at a fixed price and bots taking all the quanta back by selling magic potions.
 

This is basically the China factory syndrome: pay your workers then force them to use your restaurants, accommodation and leisure facilities, completely capturing the flow of capital and leaving little “leakage” for third parties.
 

I’m no economist, but this just seems like patent nonsense to me from a gaming (not a hyper-exploitative cotton farm in China) viewpoint. 
 

JC has decried the lack of human interaction. Hell he was even willing to risk losing or at least alienating half his player base to address the issue...
 

and what does he go and do? Basically set up a short circuit between a sweet trifecta of his own bots, effectively cutting human interaction out of the entire transaction from ore to store. 

dig by yourself.  Sell to bots. Get money for existing, the give all that money back to JC... so that you can once again craft your own shit for your own ships.

 

Well played, JC, you could have probably written the background story to Brazil! 

 

Hey NQ! Read this! It's spot on ?

[[Discuss] We've Heard You!]

11 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

This is what will happen. This is how the game injected quantas into the economy when the beta started. This is how it works on any mmo game. Money is just a number that has some value calculated in effort time. It does not really matter what that number is, only the required effort to build a product counts. Yes if you change the said price on the bots it causes an inflation and changes the value of the currency, but that has nothing to do with the market not moving.

Until someone under cuts the market and floods it with lower cost items at high volume, thus market change activity, thus invoking equilibrium. This will only happen in a free market. Parties require the resource that the other has and hence a considerable incentive to engage in an exchange and thus kick starting the market and equilibrium within it and generating a market clearing price. The act of 'price discovery' is required to make that happen and will take time to occur and needs a free market format for it to occur. Price fixing is not allowing the market clearing to occur and thus the underlying problem with the industry and the knee-jerk reaction patch that was 0.23.

[Refining makes ore worthless ??]

4 hours ago, JayleBreak said:

...Its good for motivating people to spend/invest money before it loses value.

Actually that's devaluation and one of the major factor that causes inflation along with increased money supply (which is also unnaturally occurring).

 

Quote

Once all the cheap Pure Carbon leaves the market the sell offers will ask for more money...

That's supply and demand and is a natural occurrence in finding the equilibrium within a market and is healthy as long as the market isn't fixed or influenced (which it currently is).

[[Discuss] We've Heard You!]

9 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

...people with start buying ore at higher prices than bots...

Extremely unlikely as cost drives consumption and not the other way around. It's also generally undesirable, especially as a new player as the cost of the base items dictates the price of the finished and everything in the supply of that item thus a false inflation and overstatement of value.

[[Discuss] We've Heard You!]

3 hours ago, July01 said:

...Beside that, the 24-25 quantas bots buying ore (temporary), just kill the market. Basically it is much more profitable if I would sell my non-refined ore to the bots instead of spending the time and efforts to invest in schematics, industry building and hours manufacturing, or even trading.
I think the more you try to control the player-driver economy, the more you may ruin it.

100% This. It is ruined. I've posted several times on the forums this week that it's price fixing and that's illegal in the real world for a reason. There's no need for bots in the market place and they need to be removed for the market to find its true equilibrium, supply and demand profile. Bots and price fixing are not allowing industry to breathe in the way that it was intended.

[[Discuss] We've Heard You!]

Quote

Here’s our plan for now. We will modify the formula of the schematic prices to make it considerably more affordable for Tier 1 and still challenging and worth a commitment but less intense for anything Tier 2 or above. 

A welcome start but actually not the root of the industry issues.

 

The reason why people are being seen to 'solo' or 'self sufficient' is that the fundamental backbone of the markets is broken, absolutely broken and removing the desire to collaborate. The reason? Bots.

 

Bots are placing buy items in the market place and poisonings the market flow down. To make it worse, its being done at the source with ore which is amazingly overvalued. Ore is key as its the starting block of the supply chain and an artificial high in value then creates no desire for anyone to refine, create and then sell their items into the supply chain. Generating a real supply and demand equilibrium will never take hold, and the desire to build industry and actually sell items to other players, or build consortiums to provide goods and services will never materialise. Right now the ore is at a price that's too good to miss and selling it back into the system is the easiest and quickest way to break the recession that 0.23 placed on the community.

 

Remove the bots, let the true supply and demand take a hold, watch the markets grow and stabilise and watch industry grow in the way it was intended, to sustain the wider community and provide a genuine game mechanic.

 

"The great virtue of a free market system is that...it is the most effective system we have discovered to enable people who hate one another to deal with one another and help one another" - Milton Friedman

 

 

[Are you still enjoying the game?]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:05 AM, GraXXoR said:

Taking a break to play through cyberpunk 2077 which I’m loving, since it’s the first story driven, non sandbox AAA game I’ve ever played. Will likely be back in a couple of weeks to see how things are progressing. 
As of now, im just logging in for a minute a day to collect the 150k and keep my skills queued. 

Snap. Enjoy CP ?

 

Hopefully when/if we come back industry is fixed and market bots have been removed. 

[Refining makes ore worthless ??]

So this is how broken the market is because of bot pricing. I ran a simple numbers scenario last night on coal. Again its artificial bot price is 25q per litre. If you sold 65l you would make 1625q. 65l also makes 45l of Carbon which would cost around 815-825q to buy off the market. So you can quickly double your output on the refined version of the ore quickly and simply! That should absolutely not be the case. A refined product should be source elements + process cost + transport cost + desired margin. 

 

Bots are killing the market full stop.  With them there is no way the market will ever reach player sustained equilibrium with a true supply and demand balance. Its so short sighted and frustrating. Industry is so pointless unless you want to build things for yourself and your wider organisation but even that's been killed by the 0.23 patch. Sigh. 

[Refining makes ore worthless ??]

2 hours ago, Xennial said:

This all goes back to the fundamentally flawed idea of having bots in the market at all. If ore prices were allowed to nose dive, producers would find more value in producing etc etc etc. They insist bots are needed when all their presence does is cripple the ability for an actual market to develop. Their constant tampering with bots in the market is what has lead to the 'problems' they are trying to correct while still insisting on keeping the problem alive on their end.

100% this. Fixing markets is illegal in real life for a reason. Basically the river is poisoned at source and everyone down stream is either ill or not wanting to drink the water any more.

[Refining makes ore worthless ??]

I ran some numbers last night against two finished items. The general finding is that ore at its fixed pricing bot market value of 25q is about four times too high of what it should be and is crippling player market activity and a micro supply chain environment. That didn't include the current insane cost of the schematic to make the final item either. 

 

In a nutshell, it's not allowing players the ability to sell second, third, fourth or finished goods into the market as there is no economic sense to do so. Ore price is king and its killing free market trading. 

 

NQ are using the high price to help dig them out of the recession 0.23 created and its having a crippling effect on everything in the market. 

[How .23 should have been.]

7 hours ago, Shealladh said:

I don't get it, I understand the changes and why they're attempting it, but it still makes absolutely no sense why the market sells elements cheaper than you can make them.

As an ORG member calculated;
 

 

So if the item is 3 times the cost to produce, than purchasing, where is the sweat shop running with child labour and how do we get this setup, still not seeing a schematic for that anywhere?

I have said it for a long time, the economy does not make sense, bots that sell cheaper than you can make them will kill the game. Get rid of the PERIOD, let the players and their actions set the price as it will pan out.

After listening to the video on the patch release with JC interview, I see his mission, but no reasoning.
Maybe an economist needs to be hired.

We pay tax on everything, where does this tax go?

IRL these taxes mean something, here they're just a s@#$hole sink for the sake of it. My taxes build roads, pay for public buildings, emergency services, and so on.
Do you see anything other than Markets as Public Buildings, no, where is our emergency services when we crash and be rescued.....

We need to make DU great again, I hear Trump is looking for a new job, anyone....

I've just posted this very issue under a bot/price fixing thread I started last night. High priced Bot placed ore orders are creating a broken supply and demand chain that's stopping the community actually having a competitive and complete market engine. 

 

The artificial ore price is there to off set depression that the 0.23 patch brought with it which in turn wanted to generate player driven markets. Go figure ? Economists NQ are not. 

[Please tell me this is not a series of bot placing?]

1 minute ago, Emptiness said:

Tell that to the diamond cartels.

Not saying it doesn't happen, my god it happens everywhere and in every market we interact in. Energy pricing for example is something we all have to live with IRL. It is however illegal  

[Please tell me this is not a series of bot placing?]

So firstly I'm new to the game so a lot of the in-game market activity and dynamics are new to me.

 

So you're telling me that most of the supply and demand factors are artificial and price fixed? IRL its illegal across all the free nation markets and people go to prison for it and for good reason.

 

The most important function or concept of 'free pricing' (a fixed price not regulated) is its ability to serve as an indicator of the scarcity of a commodity, and more importantly then ration or offer to the highest demander. As long as the price of an item is allowed to fluctuate and match the supply demand there will be neither surpluses nor shortages and market equilibrium is met. This factor is important to Dual Universe as a game concept to allow industry and the market place to be truly gamer driven and dynamic. Fixed/artificial pricing removes the equilibrium for the game and creates supply chain issues. This is even more critical to DU as the complexity of sourcing items to create and supply items is actually very simple compared to real life. IRL if one item isn't available or over priced, then an alternative can generally be sourced to replace it (this happened globally in the 1970's when copper became scarce and aluminum was used in electronic items instead), in DU that cannot occur. 

 

What's even more alarming is that the fixing is done on the very first element of the supply chain, ore. The above example is Bauxite (sorry I should of been clearer on my OP). Price fixing the first initial element in the supply change sets a dangerous precedence for the following matrix of goods and items that follow it. It generates a false market recession in later supply chain items due to the mismatching in component costs. So if bauxite is set artificially high/low then aluminum should follow suit as a refined product of bauxite, as should Al-Fe Alloy as it's directly related to Aluminum and so the chain of price precedence continues. Now that's 100% not happening and killing market freedom and player interaction. The fixing is allowing ore to be sold at a high price (IMHO). More people are mining their way out of the current depression, so ore supply should be high which should drive a lower cost to allow other people to then cost effectively create the follow on elements such as metals and finished alloys in order to make the follow on items such as pipes into hydraulics and so on at the correct and competitive cost point. Right now the system (bot) is buying up that ore and not allowing the real players take advantage of the market balance. As an example, Al-FE Alloy is pretty much being demanded at 1Q. Bauxite is 25Q per liter as per the fixed/artificial bot price, however the demand for a third stage follow on item is insanely low! That everyone is broken game economics on a massive level that will never stabilise unless either:

 

(a) Fixed/artificial pricing is introduced at a considered price point for all items with the consideration of it's base components. A horrible horrible concept that removes any chance to generate a true player economy and any form of 1-2-1 or 1-2-many trading situations (which I'm guessing NQ wants right?!) but generates a fair market price structure in the supply chain end to end. Still horrible though!

 

(b) Allow free market activity. Remove the bots and let the market self-regulate, driving player supply/demand elements and allowing everyone to make the right levels or margins across the supply chain for the real economy to breathe and flourish! This could also introduce more advanced market elements such as futures trading based on known or predicted events in the game.

 

Sorry for the long and (potentially) boring post. It's something that's close to my heart, and something that's been bothering me about this game and the future of it. I really really like this game but the recent patch has in essence destroyed any chance of new players getting ahead (I've stopped playing and instead just logging in to collect my daily bonus until my sub runs out). This attached with the price/market fixing has absolutely removed any chance of getting ahead and making any form of player profiting unless you want to spend all day underground mining.

 

"We who live in free market societies believe that growth, prosperity, and ultimately human fulfillment are created from the bottom up, not the government down" - Ronald Reagan.

[Please tell me this is not a series of bot placing?]

Looks very uniform and so I'm guessing these are all bot placings on the market?

 

So not only did the industry paralyse the new players, it looks like an artificial pricing structure is now in place, thus killing any natural market movement and novation and once again crippling the ability for a true supply and demand situation between players? Honestly you can't make this up if this is the case!

 

You've broken it already, let the natural order occur!

 

 

[Roll Back]

6 hours ago, Sinclair said:

To add insult to injury, they scatter the schematics to build parts and anything over Tier 1 off of Alioth and also into the PVP unprotected area. A lot of us more humble and smaller orgs (like 2-5 person orgs) like just playing on Alioth and don't have a space-faring ship yet. So the insult....? Now the richie riches buy those schems we can't get on Alioth and post them on markets on Alioth at a big premium. More revenue for the rich, more tax for the poor. Like a slap in the face to those who are not in a big org or already rich and space-faring. Ridiculous.

 

Wow. Difficult to leave a planet without a ship. Not sure the noobie speeder is going to cut it. Older, richer players roll on, new players die quickly. Game over man. Game over. 

[Day 3 Player - This Patch that has Just Landed]

On 12/9/2020 at 6:16 PM, SneakySnake said:

Now you have to live in the game for several months to build the L core. Haha. Good luck with that....

NQ, please bring the industry back to how it was before.

Oh dear...thats that then. 

[Addictive to tedious in one move....]

7 hours ago, JoeKing said:

...I genuinely, genuinely hope you listen to everyone and you make a success of Dual Universe, it is (was) special, I’m just gutted its been ruined for me.

 

 

 

This. Absolutely this. I've not been this addicted to a game for over 10 years and now I really don't want to play it. It's a huge shame.

[Day 3 Player - This Patch that has Just Landed]

20 hours ago, Orangeferret said:

So, I'm not a fan of the new industry changes but unless the bot market prices have shifted drastically as a result of this patch, you shouldn't be getting 30k/hr. More like a couple hundred easy.

 

What/where are you mining?

 

What are your scanner skill ranks?

 

Mining skill ranks?

I've been monitoring ore prices this morning. Hematite on Alioth went from on average 24q per unit to just under 19q in four hours. The market is flooding as everyone is underground grinding to have any hope of pulling themselves out of the industry hole they find themselves in. I expect that price to plummet even further by this evening as more and more ore floods in. Its a basic economic concept based on the Wyckoff methodology that the rich will get richer and the poorer work hard to maintain a basic standard of living. As a poor noobie it's really not fun.

[Continue playing or quit the game (after 0.23)]

3 hours ago, FURILKA said:

This is just some kind of madness. I really can't believe this is really happening. There is no PvE in the game, there is no way to earn a quantum other than mining, damn it. Mining, mining, mining. I hate mining. I just want to build factories and make stuff for myself. Not for sale, for my own use. As I said, I hate mining, but I'm ready to do it for myself needs. But in order to make money, to buy recipes? LOL never. I am leaving the game until this patch is removed from the server. The game is not playable for me now.

I described it as being 'paralysed'. It sucks that I can't play a game the way I want to play it and actually spend the limited game time I have having fun especially as there are many other games that I could spend time playing and enjoy.

[Patch ruined the game (for me)]

9 hours ago, Vizeroy said:

The industry changes are too severe.

I'm not really enjoying the fact that i cant produce ANYTHING without investing millions to get my product lines up and running again.

I was in the progress of building a small production facility with only T1 ores, pures, components and finished products.

I'm not rich, with the login bonus for today, i've got 400.000.

In order to get my factory up and running now, i'll need millions upon millions. Only way to get that, is to spend god knows how many hours mining for the market instead of mining for my own production.

I dont really consider that fun or interesting gameplay.

 

So... i'm just gonna hope this gets heavily rebalanced soon or i'm gonna write off this game and move on

Damn shame, because i've just spent the last month getting to know the basics of the game and was actually starting to enjoy it.

As a new player it's soul destroying. Such a great game that is now genuinely to difficult to play with any ounce of fun. Gutted. 

[Roll Back]

20 minutes ago, Revelcro said:

I wish they would just wipe it.  Rather start over than see this go on.

 

That would be the best situation. Level the field and make people truly collaborate at the same level. The economy gulf between the rich (older players) and the poor (new players) is too wide for the economy to work. 

[[Discussion] ◇ Core Units can no longer be restored using scrap at all.]

11 hours ago, Captain Hills said:

you not even know what's up .. if you knew it, you'd instantly drop the game

I have. I just unsubbed. No you can't have my stuff!

[Gutted...]

I'm a week into the game, super enjoying it, addicted even.

 

New patch has arrived, I like the concept of a harder path to mega industry, get it, understand it. However for a new player it's completely killed it, gutted.

 

It's impossible for me to afford just the basic of industry items. I have 90k quants. Answer is to go mine, sell, mine, sell etc. I get it, go earn it but that's not fun. Games are meant to be fun. I already have a job, I don't want two. 

The other issue is current wealth. The older, richer players can just buy their way out of this and be up and running in days/weeks, for me it would take months/years. Again no fun and massively unfair. 

 

Fun has been removed, sorry guys it sucks. There must be a better fairer/more balanced way to achieve the industry goals?

 

Yes I've unsubbed. No you can't have my stuff. Have fun folks.