IvanGrozniy
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Posts posted by IvanGrozniy
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19 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:
I’m curious where this info comes from was there an interview with staff stating that JC doesn’t listen? Or an insider report/leak?
speculation on my part, I simply refuse to believe the devs are this dumb
19 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:also, halving voxel DP? Not sure what that brings to the table.
If you build a proper ship with voxels that actually are used for pvp, it will take literally hours to kill it. It's all wars of attrition. And because that's the meta, smaller ships are useless because they can only fit so much voxels and can only use guns relative to their size.
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A classic case of vision getting in the way of good game design (also known as fun). This is a post about what civilization is / can be in Dual Universe, and perhaps what went wrong. Before diving in, here are some of my assumptions:
- JC is a scientist, not a game designer
- JC is a micromanager
- JC does not want to listen to his devs (some of which worked for Ubisoft and know a thing or two about good game design and mechanics)- Because of the assumption above, I also assume there's a degree of conflict between devs and JC
- I assume a lot might change up to release since this is a beta, but something tells me... not really, given the track record so far of very good ideas being thrown away or not listened to (classic examples include bot market orders screwup in beta, this was talked about extensively by Blazemonger and a slew of other people in the community, was completely ignored, and the results are clear)
Lets get the whole "but it's a beta" shtick out of the way... if you can't, just pretend that you can.To the point:
The game suffers from very bad game design choices. My stance is, if this game was really about civilization building, the mechanics of the game would be very different than they are now. What is civilization?- organization of individuals into social bodies due to selective pressures
- characteristics of civilization include: social structure and hierarchy, efficiency, work organization, supply of needs, development of more efficient technologies
- selective pressures that create civilization include, but are not limited to: resource shortage, non-uniform resource distribution, geography, weather, proximity to neighboring civilizations, war, dangerous environment, dangerous neighbors
I'm sure a lot of you have seen (or were part of groups that tried to build) cities in DU. Some have actually done so. The problem is, they are completely useless and empty. They look nice, there was tremendous effort in making them, but they are completely nonfunctional because no one needs to be in a city. And that is due to the fact that there really are no selective pressures for civilization at all. There is no reason to be in a group because there is no danger. There is no scarcity of distribution of regular ore. We have safezones on all planets, and a big giant safezone around three planets. Why would anyone live in a city? There are no "white-collar" and "service" game mechanics that characterize cities.
- DU has no danger element at all (even in pvp zone, if you don't fly in the pipe, you're pretty much golden)
- DU has no progressive tech tree
- DU has no progression, it has quanta gates for elements that anyone can acquire and use given they have the quanta for it
- I can go on, but for an analysis of "civilization" just read this discord post: https://discord.com/channels/184691218184273920/304455542162587649/80629454165311491
I know this is wishful thinking at this point, but DU would be much better off with actual game design:- Better Talent System: scrap the Eve talents system (some things should really not be copied), instead have a tech progression tree where you unlock technologies you can use. And have the skill grow based on your activity in the game, not a set amount of points per hour. It's gamey , it's simple, it's fun, it's very intuitive. And you can always add more tech to the tree indefinitely as the game grows. This will allow whole orgs to gravitate towards a direction in the tech tree so we actually get diversity in org playing styles. For example, one org can develop their pvp armadas with ballistics (machine guns, gattling guns, big bertha weapons), another org might focus their armada pvp tech research into laser or electonic warfare. The same can go with unlocking building technologies. The same can go for politics and leadership styles within an org. Have it all be a research tree. There are countless ways of adding diversity and different paths to a game using this mechanic instead of the Eve Talent Points system.
- Safe Zones: seriously.. is Sanc Moon not enough? The game lacks any danger and people just stop playing because of tedium and burn out. You won't believe how hard it is to convince people to gather into PVP events in this game because they're just too bored of it, it has zero consequence. Sanc moon is a sanctuary moon. That is its purpose.
- Better Consequences: This game has the wrong consequences. What seems to be happening is a bunch of nerfing to create more consequences in the game, such as talk about nerfing linked container distance, brakes, mining, this whole permadamage to elements, etc. How about actual danger, not the tedium of fixing and replacing parts? How about lowering the cost of building guns and ammo? Halfing most of the voxel HP? How about designing the game so that more people can get into pvp easier, and if they lose, the cost isn't too great that they are discouraged from ever trying it again?
- JC should actually listen to his devs and game designer (if he has one): lets face it, economists, mathmeticians, scientists, or whoever NQ may or may not consult about their game.. they are not playing the game. WE ARE. What we are witnessing is the result of the disconnect between how gamers play and how JC thinks a game should run. And it is our wallets that are paying. This means JC should listen to his devs. This means JC should really hire a game designer, they are a rare species and it's difficult to find a good one, but if you do, please listen to that person. JC may know stuff about robotics, but as I see it, he has no clue about human psychology, especially gamer psychology.
My rant is over. Catch me outside how bout dat. -
6 hours ago, blazemonger said:
There is one major difference between a game's community and "sociologists, economists, professional writers" .. one of these pay the bills, the other are the bills..
this tbh
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Cocaine was mentioned. We need drugs in DU. Agriculture farms.. secret underground hydrofarms where we can harvest stuff, make drugs in chemical labs, sell them for lots of moneys, all under NQs nose.
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8 minutes ago, Hazaatan said:
"Right there is when you allege that if it's illegal in the real world it should be illegal in the game world."
Right there? where??
"Now it's your turn. Explain to us how you justify an act in a game, that is illegal in real life. How can you see this as 'just part of the game'. Because something is used to do something legit, it should be allowed to be used for something not legit? Explain."
You started this conversation, and your jumping on the bandwagon... nothing about this post says that the in game act is illegal. It is clear that I sad - the act in the game, if done in RL would be illegal. I never said it should be illegal in the game. I don't like it because it is dirty gameplay. You like it because of reasons have have yet to give because you still haven't justified it.
Just to get this straitened out;
"Which is incorrect information. If you were correct, NQ, Google, Tesla, Apple, Samsung, would all have pending lawsuits."
They don't have pending lawsuits because they add as much BS into their TOS to cover their asses. But they do not have permission to all of your data. If you say that you can't pay the bills and they send you a copy of your current bank information showing you do in fact have money to pay the bill, that not illegal?? The important word here is permission.
My statement is "Companies get sued and have to pay large fines for doing what this player is doing in the game." This player is gathering information on other players WITHOUT permission.
"the lawsuit that you referred to that went against Google was many years ago and dealt with Homeland security as well as private info and violating witness protection programs because of the real time access of satellite information as well as vehicle tags and people's faces. Completely unrelated to somebody tagging IDs and times."
You just agreed with me. "Private info" It is absolutely related because of permission. They didn't have permission.
"As far as laws being the same in game as far as real life then you have never heard of Grand theft Auto Watch Dog or so so many other titles."
I never said that laws should be the same in game as in RL. I said it was dirty gameplay and I didn't like it. I also said I didn't like scamming out of kiosks, and that is also illegal if you were to do that in RL.
"USA is about choices, even if it is the choice to remain ignorant."
You have to be really dense to not understand what is happening in your own country. USA used-to-be about choices. It is now about one choice, the lowest common denominator choice. If you don't' know that, your ignorance is heavy, too heavy for you to carry. You are not in an echo chamber, keep politics out of this.
We're done here.
Oh no we're not!
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is this motion forwards and backwards?
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On 1/14/2021 at 1:45 PM, XKentX said:
Yea and limit container sizes to core sizes. Wtf xs ships can carry megas but can't use guns.
MOOOORREEE limits in a sandbox game)
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4 hours ago, Warlander said:
So if they have the capability to embed code onto a player to track them what is stopping them from creating a character embedded code to a person that sets perms and polocies? Im sure its not too far out of the realm of possibilities. Hell the one guy took out district 15 likely with this type of code. It was just a sacrificial test run to test the electric fence and probe to see what they could get away with.
Ok.. for starters... this is not how ingame lua works at all... I just briefly described what lua is capable of, and it is nowhere near the cyberpunk all-seeing-eye apocalypse some people think this is.
You cannot embed code onto a player. There is no way to use lua to alter permissions and policies. A lot of people have these kinds of trackers on their ships, factories, territories, etc. All it does is tracks when a player entered and left. That's all it can do. Nothing to worry about. Everyone can do it. Everyone can do it on mass like this org that places trackers on markets. Literally nothing to worry about, you're being spied upon all the time anyway, just play the game.- CptLoRes and le_souriceau
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Lol omg... None of this matters literally. None. No one has a secret XXXL Rail gun hidden away.
1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:When you see that the script is running (look lower right on your screen for Programming Board), relog. It should hang the script.
A person writing the script can hide that programming board widget so you will never see it. You won't know if a script is running at all, but if you are sure there's a pb somewhere nearby, your technique will still work
But.. Literally, you can't embed code unto other people.. What the hell is this? Yes the code on the pb runs on your client but only in game files, nothing can be planted on your computer this way. Common. People are nuts in this game sometimes...
QuoteThere are many other analytics these devices produce that can be sold - like specific player searches
NO this is not how it works, and has nothing to do with these trackers. If you the player searches for a product on the market, your log file will store all of the market information, INCLUDING the names of the people who put up orders on the market. You can then parse through the logs and extract the information you need. It has nothing to do with these trackers. And no other player has access to these log files besides you.
QuotePersonally, I don't support Oxdale and The Old Guard of Gaia on this venture, and I feel that it is a violation for my information to be sold behind my back.
If I have a tracker script on my ship and you enter and leave, am I also violating your information if I then sell it? Seriously? This is like 101 lua code right here, if you think these trackers are spying on you, you're in for a big surprise. Every big org has scrapers, everyone knows where everyone is, who they are affiliated with, etc. A quick search through this forum will show you a page where people have graphed out scraped information for convenience to the public. -
Lol omg... None of this matters literally. None. No one has a secret XXXL Rail gun hidden away.
1 hour ago, Daphne Jones said:When you see that the script is running (look lower right on your screen for Programming Board), relog. It should hang the script.
A person writing the script can hide that programming board widget so you will never see it. But.. Literally, you can't embed code unto other people.. What the hell is this? Yes the code on the pb runs on your client but only in game files, nothing can be planted on your computer this way. All this script can do is track player id / name / timestamp. THAT IS IT. This is no different from what countless people do when they install player entrance tracking on their own ships. People are nuts in this game sometimes.
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51 minutes ago, XKentX said:
combined they had much more than ATOM ships
U what?? Idk where you get your numbers from... but uh.. .Boo and Sneaky Snake's group were outnumbered a bit, plus Atom had more ships in reserve that they couldn't use due to low numbers... all orgs are experiencing low numbers so ... people have to do what they have to do. Atom did a good job anyway, we all had a good time pew-pewing each other, something you missed out on because you decided to be against everybody
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4 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:
Are you talking about THE ANDERSON WILLIAMS?
yes
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ATTENTION ALL SHAREHOLDERS
============================
Effective immediately, all Talemai shares now belong to The Lord Lobster Inc. Group. Effective immediately, taxes and fees have been adjusted to reflect the following:
1) Sales Tax = 14.2 %
2) Ore Extraction per KL = 150 L to be dropped off at customs
3) Marriage Dowry = 25% quanta equivalent of dowry value4) Breeding Tax = 10% incubator maintenance cost per breeding cycle
5) Deployment of Territory Unit = 10% cost of deployment
6) Territory Scanner = all scanners are now rented by the state at a rate of 1500 quanta per scan
7) Atmospheric Thrust = 30% of fuel cost per hour
8. Building Permit = 100 quanta per cubed meter
9) Promotion to Superlegate = 700,000 quanta
IMPERATIVES, to be executed at the earliest opportunity, immediately:
1) Destroy new emperor of Empire, the usurper must die a thousand deaths
2) Anderson, if seen, must be trapped in a borg cube and immediately brought to The Court of the Prophet
3) If Sybily is spotted, every Talemai resident and contractor must immediately give Sybily 2 small adjusters
IF ANYONE is seen violating fees or breaking THE IMPERATIVES, they will be stripped of their nanosuit, dragged across Talemai's snow desert, then spaced, their trajectory aimed at Sanc Moon. Furthermore , their children and the children of their children shall be shot on sight.
Praise the Lord Lobster
Peace be Upon Him, Shit Below Him- Cardiac555 and MadmanMac
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This is really cool that you did this but also bonkers, sad, and frustrating... game should have voxel editing tools that work well already...
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On 12/23/2020 at 12:26 AM, blazemonger said:
It's encouraging to see the changes in the CM department over the past months. How that translates down the pipe into the company is what remains to be seen.. Let's hope for the best and a positive change by NQ in this regard. The work and input from the CM team is appreciated for sure
Notice that it is Naunet saying this... and while this is Naunet's job, I have never seen anyone at NQ say things like this... granted I haven't looked at all of the history of these forums but... you get the point..
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On 12/19/2020 at 11:22 PM, Atmosph3rik said:
The thing is, DU is the kind of game where your framerate really isn't that big of a deal anyway. Sure it's always nice to have 60fps. But this isn't a fast paced shooter, or a racing game. lower fps isn't going to stop you from doing anything.
Not really true. Try landing at 10 fps. You'll see the difference quick.
DU is built on Unigene engine, and to quote JC himself, "nothing works out of the box for us".
So yes, performance is very important. Setting up industry in a lag fest just makes me want to play something else. Piloting in low fps is a disaster. The fact that so much resources are taken up just in the starting zone with almost no players around Is a telling sign there is something really wrong with game performance, not the least of which is they have failed to decouple cpu and gpu processes.
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9 minutes ago, Emptiness said:
Builders should not be punished for wanting to use interesting honeycombs
Well... they should have thought of that one ei?)
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13 hours ago, Xennial said:
Here is a not seeing the forest through the trees example. Basically EVERY MMO out there forces you to specialize via some 'class' system. You missed the entire reason I used screws as an example. Engaging in industry at scale is about making industrial gameplay more rewarding to the player and the player base as a whole. It's not about "I want to make everything all in one building , by myself". If people were setting up industry with the mindset first that it's another way to make money in game and engage with the player economy then it doesn't matter what they are mass producing. The fact that people only think in terms of industry means I make 200 different finished products so we never have to buy anything, rather then I engage in industry to interface with the market is the root problem they tried to address in 0.23.
Annnnnd failed. Schematics are just delays, nothing more, and frankly, an absurd idea. Another result of a case where JC thinks we're playing his game wrong. I also get the feeling that both he and some members of this community seem to think they can change human nature. They won't. People will just move on. There's a fundamental problem here that JC seems to think he can fix by going against human nature itself. Good luck with that I guess.
Someone already said it here in a different way but... specialization was already happening pre .23 patch. People were getting into their groves... scripting, building, making ships, doing logistics, etc. Because these were the paths the game offered. Further stratifying this into specific industry with a forced mechanic is ridiculous because it's inorganic. Here you have a massive game with so much potential, and you're constantly hit with absurd limits. All this so that people interface with markets? Big orgs won't do that. Small players probably will. The attempt to force people into a certain game pattern backfired. Fundamentally we're dealing with humans, not robots... a basic understanding of human nature is in order.
More content should be the focus. More avenues. More gameplay patterns. What NQ did was take the existing pathways and split them into pieces... into tiny little pieces...
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4 hours ago, Xennial said:
You want someone to specialize in screws
Lol... imagine paying a sub fee for an MMO where you specialize in screws. Seriously? I know of no player that wants to specialize in screws. Frankly I know of no player that wants to specialize in any singular thing with exclusion of specialization in other areas.
I do a whole bunch of everything and I prefer that. So do a lot of other players. Because sandbox. All of these limits will have a lot of ramifications, one of which would be: really shitty looking ships. They already are. Most people create flying cigars and that's it. Everyone is back in the mines looking for ore.
In an MMO, the way you engage players is... add more content. NQ's version of this idea is: uh.... we don't have new content, lets stretch out the old content by an obscene amount so people can play for the same content but 200-300 times slower. Yay, more content!
I suspect t4-t5 ores will be completely gone before asteroid mining becomes a thing, people are scanning over 200 tiles a day, a one man job. Some planets have already been mostly, if not completely scanned out. Let me guess, NQ will realize that this is a problem and limit players to 1 scan per day, or a scan fee in the millions. Yay, more content!
NQ could have increased industry into agriculture to provide more avenues for revenue sources... making fuels out of agricultural farming for example... making honeycomb... etc... No. No. This is not the way. The way is to gut industry to schematics, schematics that cannot be created nor copied nor used for multiple lines... I forgot this game is sci-fi... Yay, more content!
And on and on and on... If they waste their resources on a creative mode / pvp arena, I will demand a mining arena. Can't be any less stupid than whatever they're trying to help by adding in these modes.
And.. mmos are never fair. Never. People are delusional if they think a wipe will give everyone a level playing field. That's just not how the world works, especially not in games.
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On 12/21/2020 at 3:36 AM, Elitez said:
And how can NQ gather critical economical data with a 100% wipe?
If you haven't noticed they really care less about critical economic data... I mean... they pushed patch .23
And that is despite pleas and pages written to them saying this would be a bad idea. In the end what has this patch achieved? More mining. More tedium. More grind. This whole market idea is a fail since there are no unique items. All that will happen is dilution. At some point everyone will be able to build everything. And the markets will be obsolete again. Centering gameplay around markets to force player interaction.... lol.
NQ thinks that stretching out the current content is content in itself. All they did was create a padding economy that is boring as hell in a soap opera.
No unique elements.
No new content.
PVP is even more pointless.
The game logic of schematics is laughable.
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DU as Civilization Gone Wrong (Poor game design)
in General Discussions
Posted
Well....
You could do something like this:
Instead of wiping the whole thing, corporations can have spawn nodes in their basesv/cities. And a new player who just joined the game can either choose to spawn at Alioth /Sanc, or at any of the corps who want to recruit new players.
As far as safezones go... you said this game needs builders. I'd say prove it. Not that I'm against builders, it's just if we're talking about a civilization building game, there need to be reasons for building, not just for the hell of it. Yiu need outposts, strongholds, towers, etc... elements that can protect territories. The building style would change drastically if there was danger of destruction. What this game needs are players
And a lot of the players who do not play the game anymore are pvp oriented players. We'll see if the asteroid implementation brings them back or not.
I like someone's else's solution to the problem where... sure keep the safezones in this system but make the new systems coming up with 0 safezones. Basically system 0 is the newb friendly zone, any new system is pvp.
Your shield idea makes sense. Only why so complex? I can put up a shield on any territory regardless of connected territories. What would be cool though is to fluctuate shield power based on interconnected tiles. I'd say the more tiles you connect the more power you need.