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Jeronimo,, sweetie, air-voxels are still taking memory space in the server. They are transparent, non-collisional voxels. It's like saying a 512x512 image, that has 35% of its pixels as transparent, somehow, has a reduced byte-size of 35%.


Servers will still have to track those voxels' locations / orientation as well, so, there's precious server data wasted. 



I agree on your "atmosphere generation Element", but it could act as a "scan-fill" function in a ship that enables a certain voxel surface amount as "atmosphere", thus, breathable.

 

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this is a such a simple answer, as we are in 2016, games whith such simple mechanics will be very fast forgotten

 

As far as I'm aware haven't reached the singularity yet, coders still have to work with a variety of real world limitations. 

 

I mean, sure, is your idea technically feasible? Yes, of course it is. The question is, is it feasible for a single shard MMO with a server-client architecture? I don't mean so much technologically as economically. I think we can all agree it would be awesome to basically get Space Engineers: The MMO with millions of players online at once. But the required processing power on the server side would probably be prohibitively expensive.

 

The same goes for wheels, rotors, pistons, rails, and similar general-purpose mechanical bits. It's too costly on the server side to do all the required calculations all the time. These things can be done relatively cheaply you might think, but think of the scale involved. Think of the millions of constructs that need to be checked if they're leaky whenever they're interacted with, of all the little wheels on vehicles rolling across surfaces, etc. Things add up very quickly and can add an enormous overhead on the server architecture.

 

I feel people are right when they say you need to temper your expectations. This game isn't going to be the next Space Engineers, it's more likely going to be Eve Online with voxels.

 

The devs may go and see what they can add in terms of advanced survival mechanics when the game is live, when they see what they are earning, where the game is going, and what their servers cost when they are up and running. But you need to understand they can't make such things a priority.

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Jeronimo,, sweetie, air-voxels are still taking memory space in the server. They are transparent, non-collisional voxels. It's like saying a 512x512 image, that has 35% of its pixels as transparent, somehow, has a reduced byte-size of 35%.

 

 

Servers will still have to track those voxels' locations / orientation as well, so, there's precious server data wasted. 

 

 

 

I agree on your "atmosphere generation Element", but it could act as a "scan-fill" function in a ship that enables a certain voxel surface amount as "atmosphere", thus, breathable.

 

 

true, Data 0, is also a stored data, but i believe much lighter than you say, it isnt associated with much information, so could weight only 1 or 2 bytes

 

client side it doesnt have any rendering process,

and the ships will be sightly longer to laod, maybe 1 mili second more

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Yes please.

giphy.gif

 

After what I've seen in Space Engineers, I would rather this be placed at the bottom of the "would be nice" list. As this is more survival oriented, it doesn't quite belong here. NQ has said they are planning on some survival elements, but if it involves oxygen, I would think that it would come in form of oxy bottles in your inventory. Which is what SE uses if you do not enable "airtightness."

 

the tittle "air voxel" is about data storage and mechanic, i didnt mentionned any survival gameplay (only at the end, in the Edit of my first post)

i know the survival aspect of the game isnt plan for close future

 

mechanics mentioned are:

- ships hull status, segmentation of the ship for detection, prevention of enemy boarding during assaults

- possibility to build voxels on a moving spaceship, especially if your first created voxel is a floating voxel

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As far as I'm aware haven't reached the singularity yet, coders still have to work with a variety of real world limitations. 

 

I mean, sure, is your idea technically feasible? Yes, of course it is. The question is, is it feasible for a single shard MMO with a server-client architecture? I don't mean so much technologically as economically. I think we can all agree it would be awesome to basically get Space Engineers: The MMO with millions of players online at once. But the required processing power on the server side would probably be prohibitively expensive.

 

The same goes for wheels, rotors, pistons, rails, and similar general-purpose mechanical bits. It's too costly on the server side to do all the required calculations all the time. These things can be done relatively cheaply you might think, but think of the scale involved. Think of the millions of constructs that need to be checked if they're leaky whenever they're interacted with, of all the little wheels on vehicles rolling across surfaces, etc. Things add up very quickly and can add an enormous overhead on the server architecture.

 

I feel people are right when they say you need to temper your expectations. This game isn't going to be the next Space Engineers, it's more likely going to be Eve Online with voxels.

 

The devs may go and see what they can add in terms of advanced survival mechanics when the game is live, when they see what they are earning, where the game is going, and what their servers cost when they are up and running. But you need to understand they can't make such things a priority.

 

:( i didnt mentioned survival aspect

 

and i am aware of the process of calculation everytime for the deployment of the air voxels within the spaceship everytime a ship will start

 

what if it isnt server side calculated, but by the cpu of the 100 clients around, a remote calculation that will be done almost instantly

once air point clouds setup in the enclosed room of the ship, at ship start, there wont be more calculation unless there is a modification of the hull, breach opened, but once detected the elements send alarm message and the calculation is canceled

 

 

you talked about wheels, yes but there are many ways to fake them

NQ mentioned there will be hoover ships, with following terrain behaviors

What does it cost to make a decorative animated element, with no physical and mechanical properties, but just the animation of a rotating wheel, and stick it to a car like hoover ship?

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Ok lets say it is possible.

Just go with me for a sec.

 

Would it be fun?

You are on a huge space station. Lots of rooms and corridors. Then you need to plug the hole. On a small ish ship you would find it fairly quick. But on a 2 km station?

 

I think you will reach a point where most people would start calling it tedious.

 

I would.

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I work for a company and I do Lagrangian-Particle Models for air flows (motorways, chimneys, industry ovens and so on). We have a small server with 80 cores to calculate the bahaviour of a chimney with a 3D wind field. Even for a small area (1km x 1km) the calculations take up to 1 Week.

Yes its not exactly what you proposed here, yes it's a real model for the real world, yes it's too complicated to introduce that into a game.

 

BUT

 

Even with a more simple model, the servers would just not manage all those calcs. You have to check EVERY construct (at least ships and spacestuff), EVERY second for ALL VOXELS, if there is a breach. Then you need FOR ALL BREACHES THERE ARE INGAME AT THE SAME TIME a simplified model to calculate where the air is going and when that volume is empty.

That's just too much

 

Besides: I would just LOVE to shoot / plant explosives at random starships / stations from some random people and watch them furiously searching for that hole. Then you just start over with it. Pretty sensless mechanic that could be exploited with ease.

 

Did I mention that devy said it won't happen, because too complex?

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what if it isnt server side calculated, but by the cpu of the 100 clients around, a remote calculation that will be done almost instantly

once air point clouds setup in the enclosed room of the ship, at ship start, there wont be more calculation unless there is a modification of the hull, breach opened, but once detected the elements send alarm message and the calculation is canceled

 

That would certainly address the concerns I voiced.

 

But this suggestion has another catch: peer2peer networks would leave the game wide open for hackers. Effective anti-cheat mechanisms are afaik only really possible in a client-server system.

 

Not sure how much of an advantage it would give players to hack such a system, i.e. to make other ships leaky and magically plug their own holes. But it would happen eventually that someone did just that.

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Oh man, I didn't mean to start a flame war here. If you were going to do an air simulation I would do it as a on/off type deal an area is either pressurized or hard vacuum, actually simulating air flows and such would be crazy!!

 

If you wanted to know how I would implement it it would be by calculating "regions" of null space on a vessel that are enclosed and are constrained on macro grid of say 50 by 50 voxels. Each region would maintain links to all of its neighboring regions and a link would be dependent on say a door open/closed state. Each region would have a binary air flag, operating on this to determine if an area is enclosed would be simple enough and does not have to be update every single tick.

 

Of course actually implementing all this would take a long time and to be honest considering how honest Nova quark are about even basic features not being in the initial release I think I would like to bump this waaaay down the priority list

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As far as I know, pressurization/vacuum may not be a mechanic that will be a part of the game. So far we only have characters with their space helmates on, and as far as I know there is no way to take it off.

As far as I know the team reported there will be a character creation with face details and hair and all like any other RPG. So ok for the time you can't take off the helmet in the build but then it would be great and I hope it will be of course (I also hope some gas bottles to be refiled with machines on earth or tanks in ships to use with the helmet and to supply air in the ship). 

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That would certainly address the concerns I voiced.

 

But this suggestion has another catch: peer2peer networks would leave the game wide open for hackers. Effective anti-cheat mechanisms are afaik only really possible in a client-server system.

 

Not sure how much of an advantage it would give players to hack such a system, i.e. to make other ships leaky and magically plug their own holes. But it would happen eventually that someone did just that.

 

correct me if i missunderstand, but the LUA system already planned to be client side runned.

so all the ingame LUA is also conmpromised

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Oh man, I didn't mean to start a flame war here. If you were going to do an air simulation I would do it as a on/off type deal an area is either pressurized or hard vacuum, actually simulating air flows and such would be crazy!!

 

If you wanted to know how I would implement it it would be by calculating "regions" of null space on a vessel that are enclosed and are constrained on macro grid of say 50 by 50 voxels. Each region would maintain links to all of its neighboring regions and a link would be dependent on say a door open/closed state. Each region would have a binary air flag, operating on this to determine if an area is enclosed would be simple enough and does not have to be update every single tick.

 

Of course actually implementing all this would take a long time and to be honest considering how honest Nova quark are about even basic features not being in the initial release I think I would like to bump this waaaay down the priority list

 

great great idea to rescale at a bigger size the air data grid

 

and totally agree it shouldnt be on top top priority list, because we are still far from having started to build a km long spaceship

but more at the stage of non physical space plateform, and single pilot ships

 

the overall concern of the topic is what will spaceship control rooms / pilot rooms will have as active elements / interaction elements

thought the "hull status" display element is a must have 

 

otherwise living on a huge spaceship will be like beeing deaf sitting high on a branch of a tree watching the stars while a lumberjack is cutting off that same tree

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As far as I know, pressurization/vacuum may not be a mechanic that will be a part of the game. So far we only have characters with their space helmates on, and as far as I know there is no way to take it off.

Taking the helmet off is a 650K Euro stretch goal.

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Air Voxel sounds like a Nike shoe, lol.

 

There's a sci fi RP system in Second Life that does air. In space, it uses an object placed at the center of the air space. If you're within a radius of that object you can breath.  (I think in that system "close to the ground" means air too).

 

Anyway, you could replace the air object with a largish air voxel (30m maybe). If you're inside the air voxel you could breathe. Having a pressurized ship would just be a matter of including an air voxel in the ship build. (or more than one for a large ship). Air voxels would cover a planet and an appropriate tool would be able to extract one from an atmosphere.

 

There's a fairly easy way to do it. Maybe it will be the 10 mill stretch goal or something.

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Oh so that's what means air voxel? Get it now. Would be damn good, but as invisible we should get the infos about the air remaining oxygen in the ship (as on the surface of planets) thanks to some device (maybe in the suit or on computers while on board) with captors inside and outside the ships.

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Air Voxel sounds like a Nike shoe, lol.

 

There's a sci fi RP system in Second Life that does air. In space, it uses an object placed at the center of the air space. If you're within a radius of that object you can breath.  (I think in that system "close to the ground" means air too).

 

Anyway, you could replace the air object with a largish air voxel (30m maybe). If you're inside the air voxel you could breathe. Having a pressurized ship would just be a matter of including an air voxel in the ship build. (or more than one for a large ship). Air voxels would cover a planet and an appropriate tool would be able to extract one from an atmosphere.

 

There's a fairly easy way to do it. Maybe it will be the 10 mill stretch goal or something.

 

here is the purpose of the topic, an alternative of this bubble solution, already emited by JC here:

 

 

but this solution is only a survival gameplay solution (breathable air or not), not solving spaceship hull status nor voxel building on a moving spaceship

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Oh so that's what means air voxel? Get it now. Would be damn good, but as invisible we should get the infos about the air remaining oxygen in the ship (as on the surface of planets) thanks to some device (maybe in the suit or on computers while on board) with captors inside and outside the ships.

 

what she meant is what JC mentioned in a interview, for survival gameplay

 

air voxel in this topic is about filling void data grid by an air data grid

 

-first use is for detection of breeches in the hull

-second use is for voxel creation within a moving ship

    -first issue for this, is the creation of a voxel in mid air (that will by default be non physical, and remain in mid air at same position while the ship is moving = crash)

    -second issue is the replacement of those air voxels data to split player personnal creation with the voxel added to the ship 

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no seriously guys, spaceships wont be premade fully scripted meshes, and most of it, you ll be living inside

 

so if you are happy with a sspaceship built in minecraft, and have enough time and imagination to animate it with your own dreams, thats good for you, then go back on  minecraft right now

 

and dont reply to a pre alpha game mechanic topic if your dont understand what pre alpha or mechanic means

Well to be fair its also the pre alpha forums of a KS project by a small indie Dev studio. There's a limit to what they can do. Also take into consideration the type of game they are making. Some mechanics and features might not fit the vision of the project.

 

Also if you're going to suggest ideas and ask for things, then you open yourself to have others state their opinions on your ideas. So its not really good form to get personal and condescending when others don't agree that your idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

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Well to be fair its also the pre alpha forums of a KS project by a small indie Dev studio. There's a limit to what they can do. Also take into consideration the type of game they are making. Some mechanics and features might not fit the vision of the project.

 

Also if you're going to suggest ideas and ask for things, then you open yourself to have others state their opinions on your ideas. So its not really good form to get personal and condescending when others don't agree that your idea is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

anyone has dreams and fears, i have played SL for a long while, and SL offered me 10 years ago all what DU offers today, exept the infinite universe concept

 

SL was all but not a game untill yourself incorporate the roleplay

DU is designed to be a game with its proper gameplay and mechanics

 

My fear is that even after a successfull kickstart, 500 000€, that represent a year salary for 15 people in France (including government taxes, unemployement fee and retirement fee) DU doesnt develope the right mechanics of a game and that players will have, out of their imagination, to animate the roleplay themself

 

I do believe the dev team was playing with java while drinking milk at early age, and isnt planning to make a minecraft like galaxy version where everything will be static

 

Since DU will not be a survival game, and will be focused on building cities for homebodies and spaceships for explorators, those 2, must be deeply thought and playable

 

I backed the game same as most of us, but i m making sure to let devteam know that, myself, and maybe some other gamers, are picky, and wont be satisfied with a SL voxel version with an infinite universe mode, and will be strongly unpleased that the roleplay takes too much importance, that i have to type in my chat, "ding dong", faking pressing an invisible button at my neighboor's door to let him know i am here, while beside that i have implanted in my arm the nano technology to compress half of planet matter to fit in my backpack.

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anyone has dreams and fears, i have played SL for a long while, and SL offered me 10 years ago all what DU offers today, exept the infinite universe concept

 

SL was all but not a game untill yourself incorporate the roleplay

DU is designed to be a game with its proper gameplay and mechanics

 

My fear is that even after a successfull kickstart, 500 000€, that represent a year salary for 15 people in France (including government taxes, unemployement fee and retirement fee) DU doesnt develope the right mechanics of a game and that players will have, out of their imagination, to animate the roleplay themself

 

I do believe the dev team was playing with java while drinking milk at early age, and isnt planning to make a minecraft like galaxy version where everything will be static

 

Since DU will not be a survival game, and will be focused on building cities for homebodies and spaceships for explorators, those 2, must be deeply thought and playable

 

I backed the game same as most of us, but i m making sure to let devteam know that, myself, and maybe some other gamers, are picky, and wont be satisfied with a SL voxel version with an infinite universe mode, and will be strongly unpleased that the roleplay takes too much importance, that i have to type in my chat, "ding dong", faking pressing an invisible button at my neighboor's door to let him know i am here, while beside that i have implanted in my arm the nano technology to compress half of planet matter to fit in my backpack.

 

Why would you think you'd need to roleplay to enjoy the game? DU very much has a focus on economic rivalry and complex politics as driving the gameplay, something SL never really had; at least not as a driver of a grander game. I've played both SL and MMOs in a similar vein as DU (most notably Wurm Online), and I can assure you the concept does very much work without the need for roleplay. It certainly doesn't hinge on minute game mechanic details like "air voxels", all it really needs is a market where most to everything is player-created and progress that is slow and difficult unless you work together with lots of other players, the rest pretty much just falls in place by itself. 

 

How many players DU will attract will of course depend on how fun and diverse various game mechanics are. But in the mentioned example, Wurm Online, literally every activity is slow, tedious, and bland, and the game still somehow manages to hold thousands of active players (who pay a monthly subscription and some buy in-game cash on top of that). And I've played the game for quite a bit, simply because it gives you a sense of purpose that traditional MMOs can't provide.

 

 

Your other point, that 500,000 € isn't enough to finance the game: Yes, obviously it isn't. The kickstarter is a challenge by NQ's investors, in order to gauge if and how much gamers even care about the project. JC said that they were promised the necessary funding to complete the game (with full creative control) if they can meet the kickstarter goal.

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Taking the helmet off is a 650K Euro stretch goal.

That's for being able to look at your character's face and not roleplay as a sentient spacesuit.

 

The Devs though have spoken of elements that create an area around them for "oxygen", so people can breathe in them on a ship without their helmets.

 

Pressurisations is a matter of how to implement it. One idea, is to have a drag force towards the opening on a ship's hull, based on proximity.

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"I see your single shard universe with emergent gameplay, player driven politics, economy and freedom of gameplay has no air to breathe. That really sucks for me as a roleplayer, screw you"

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Why would you think you'd need to roleplay to enjoy the game? DU very much has a focus on economic rivalry and complex politics as driving the gameplay, something SL never really had; at least not as a driver of a grander game. I've played both SL and MMOs in a similar vein as DU (most notably Wurm Online), and I can assure the concept does very much work without the need for roleplay. It certainly doesn't hinge on minute game mechanic details like "air voxels", all it really needs is a market where most to everything is player-created and progress is slow and difficult unless you work together with lots of other players, the rest pretty much just falls in place by itself. 

 

How many players DU will attract will of course depend on how fun and diverse various game mechanics are. But in the mentioned example, Wurm Online, literally every activity is slow, tedious, and bland, and the game still somehow manages to hold thousands of active players (which pay a monthly subscription and some buy in-game cash on top of that). And I've played the game for quite a bit, simply because it gives you a sense of purpose that traditional MMOs can't provide.

 

 

Your other point, that 500,000 € isn't enough to finance the game: Yes, obviously it isn't. The kickstarter is a challenge by NQ's investors, in order to gauge if and how much gamers even care about the project. JC said that they were promised the necessary funding to complete the game (with full creative control) if they can meet the kickstarter goal.

 

SL isnt economy driven? it doesnt have political aspect, true, but economy is there, transactions are real, and real estate is very developed

 

i have just breifly checked Wurm online, we are here in a real time crafing mechanic, similar as The Forest, with a lot of role play game mechanics behind, survival and interaction with npc

NQ is planning a universe fully occupied and and created by players, since the LUA wont be as developed and free as the LSL, if the few interaction elements given by NQ arent filling the purpose of the game, which will be living in fully players created cities or spaceships, those living environment will be gameplayless, animated by most brave and creative minds, by virtually simulating an happening event

 

its cool to gather matter, its cool to freestyl build, and connect with LUA 2 elements (the LUA replaces the redstone...)

but if Notch forgot to implement the furnace, would minecraft be what it became now?

 

so if spaceships in DU dont have the right instruments, will there be a DU? 

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