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Why 30K?


SSampson
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Way off topic. Anyhow ED as a MMO, flight sim, adventure game, empire-builder, trading and mining game is still far superior to DU. And with space legs coming with what looks like a good shooter DU is going to take a hit. DU in my eyes and I am sure for meny of yours as you are still playing has huge potential and we are all hoping for the good game. Also ED is a released game that is in direct competition with Star Citizen not DU.

 

As for the 30kph.  Fine that may be a engine limit. 

 

My wish list.

1) Make warping far cheaper. Maybe something like 10 to 25% of current cost

 

2) Add something like a interdiction ED style or Star Wars style.  For the SW style, which I think would be best add an element(or a secondary fuction to the near useless AGG) that would create a gravity field. Maybe 50 km for s and 100 km (1su) for m and 500km(5su) L.  When entering the gravity field the warp drive shuts down. And piracy can ensue or whatever you are doing.  May be taxing common trade lanes. Who knows. 

 

3) With cheaper warp allow players to create warp routes to attempt to avoid interdiction. Something that would allow you to make 5, 10, 100 warp jumps before arriving at your target.  This could also make warp beacon more useful. 

 

I could go on and on about this but those are the 3 things I would like to see to fix the slow boating...  Just get rid of it. Make it something only for when in a gravity well. 

 

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17 hours ago, Bobbie said:

Right but the supercruise space has almost nothing going on except some points of interest markers. There's barely any simulation needed for it and possibly not even very detailed flight mechanics. It's a vastly simplified simulation model, it wouldn't work if you could actually encounter objects at the level of detail of full simulation at regular sublight speed. Technically you don't even know that you're actually going as fast as it says. If you drew a race track in front of your ship and replace the planet graphics with buildings and the map markers with people, it would change the apparent scale and you'd be going pretty damn slow. Speed is not absolute, it's relative to everything else and the level of detail of the simulation. It's not simulating actual faster-than-lightspeed, no computer can compute that fast :P  It's just a rendering trick, this is what I mean by trick. It's not the way it seems. This is what makes DU different, but that also means you're necessarily going to encounter the limits to what can actually be simulated without tricks.

OK.  I didnt say one was better than the other.  Nor do I care.  I was simply pointing out that suggesting one could travel further seamlessly in DU than ED was incorrect.

With that said neither game is even close to a simulation.  They are both science fiction.  Which is fine by me as realism isnt always fun.

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18 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

No, you can't. You can seamlessly fly between stars, planets and moons within a single system but not between systems.

 

Yes, switching between travel modes changes the instance. But normal flight and supercruise are seamless. The original concept for fast travel in ED was similar to the warp drive in DU: auto piloting between POIs. But that has been rejected by the player base.

Pretty sure you can fly from one system to another in ED.  It takes years though.

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ED is boxes/instances the same as most space games. There is no huge universe unless you jump/warp to the next box/instance. The only game I know of with no walls and a true huge universe is Space Engineers, but in the early stages they had lots of issues with the game becoming unstable at extreme distances.

However they have worked very hard to make the game more stable, I've travelled extreme distances in SE and still not had issues for the last two years or so, it really is huge.

 

Starmade had a try at auto skybox changes for travel, so the player felt they travelled seamlessly and the background changed, but it was janky and not very good. The X series was terrible for a box'y feel, running into walls etc. However they got around this with the 'highway' mode, which isn't too bad, it is basically the same as ED's, it feels more seamless, although it isn't seamless, but it works o.k.

 

Out of all the games that use boxes/instances ED is the best at concealing the change (imo).

 

SE doesn't have to do changes, because your always in the same space, even if you use the jump drive, it simply pushes you further along in the same space your in. However for the best experience in SE, remove the skybox and just have 'black' with the PG asteroids, plus planets you place out you'll feel more in space than any other game.. try it, it works really great.

 

Edit: Regards speed, they will have to have a speed limit, or the game could be very unstable. SE is set very low at 100m/s, I make the adjustments in the config files to make that a maximum of 2500m/s, the game remains very stable at that. I have travelled a lot faster in SE right upto 10,000m/s and the game seems o.k. But I prefer to keep it down. However 100m/s in SE is far too low, so you do need to adjust that.

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2 hours ago, Underhook said:

Pretty sure you can fly from one system to another in ED.  It takes years though.

No, you can't. I have checked this with close neighbours. The distance never changes - no matter how long and fast you fly.

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On 1/4/2021 at 12:49 PM, Haunty said:

I wouldn't say DU goes for realism at all for technical and gameplay reasons. The solar system and planet scale are shrunk way down, planets don't rotate or orbit the star, there is no physical star, and the lighting is not realistic.

 

They do go for realism and if you watch the Q&A vids or JC talk in general its "in the real world this does X-Y-Z" would qualify as them shooting for a more realistic game. Not to mention a bunch of the real world weights or balancing that drives 66^% of the mechanics in this game from flight, to industry would qualify as realistic. Sure do were have like 4 or so actual sci-fi based elements that break that into pieces right out of the gate? Yes I would agree with that. But any good game has its starting gameplay until you hit the fantasy/sci-fi level of efficiency is the best approach imo.

 

When I played EQ1 back when you started out with nothing in the streets just grinding for hours to outfit yourself with bags to finally start grinding mobs and gain some equipment. Mind you its primitive but until you hit like level 30-50 you were basically mortal until you got the fantasy gear and stats to actually feel like the fantasy game creeps in with actual efficiency and gear. It was a lot more brutal than this game back then no doubt with corpse runs, trains, wipes, and all that but it is still the core framework games to this day use or that WoW bastardized that games like DU are finally after 22 years are going back to.

 

We can only simulate to the degree at which we can reliably run. I am sure someone sometime some year with some new tech will boast they have cracked the augmented reality code like Euclideon once claimed with their atoms and point cloud data with real scanned textures you can see all grains of drit with where you can run a 3d scan of brisbane austrailia with some kind of compression that can run off an old laptop or thumb drive 60km of perfectly scanned highway. In the end we are stuck with what runs the best and for DU its the baseline numbers that are based in realism along the progression line that is too realistic for its own good until they can add more fantasy / sci-fi elements in over time as they gain the ability to add more solar systems and take some of the realism based numbers out the window once we can actually travel to other soloar systems down the road.

 

Their progression line based in realism is wht I find the most strange which is we are supposed to be like 10k years in the future and somehow we start here at like the dawn of space travel like we got here and some kind of dark space age hit and we are starting from square 1 with 19th centry nazi rocket technology with fossil fuels and requiring us to build airplanes instead of space ships tht can actually haul more that 2 containers rated for anything under gold a 7.5 weight per L will likely require 20-40 Stabilizers to be added onto a 2 L ship. If you are an organization hoping to fill 8-10 L containers with a cew it will take like 80 stabilizers to haul just iron let alone the standard weight of 7.5 weight per liter. Its like we are starting in the stone age only in a space game.

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1 hour ago, Underhook said:

How did you measure the distance?

The way I got answers to these questions is simply by asking them (FDev) via support. Putting of course 'is this a true statement'.

 

Planets and travel were my main questions.

So no, you have to jump to get from system to system.

And no, planets are not full size in ED.

They have confirmed both of these things via replies to direct questions I sent.

 

It's easy, ask them directly yourself.

 

I would add, this does not make the game any less enjoyable. However it is nice to know if certain things they say are true or not.

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32 minutes ago, Warlander said:

 

They do go for realism and if you watch the Q&A vids or JC talk in general its "in the real world this does X-Y-Z" would qualify as them shooting for a more realistic game. Not to mention a bunch of the real world weights or balancing that drives 66^% of the mechanics in this game from flight, to industry would qualify as realistic. Sure do were have like 4 or so actual sci-fi based elements that break that into pieces right out of the gate? Yes I would agree with that. But any good game has its starting gameplay until you hit the fantasy/sci-fi level of efficiency is the best approach imo.

 

When I played EQ1 back when you started out with nothing in the streets just grinding for hours to outfit yourself with bags to finally start grinding mobs and gain some equipment. Mind you its primitive but until you hit like level 30-50 you were basically mortal until you got the fantasy gear and stats to actually feel like the fantasy game creeps in with actual efficiency and gear. It was a lot more brutal than this game back then no doubt with corpse runs, trains, wipes, and all that but it is still the core framework games to this day use or that WoW bastardized that games like DU are finally after 22 years are going back to.

 

We can only simulate to the degree at which we can reliably run. I am sure someone sometime some year with some new tech will boast they have cracked the augmented reality code like Euclideon once claimed with their atoms and point cloud data with real scanned textures you can see all grains of drit with where you can run a 3d scan of brisbane austrailia with some kind of compression that can run off an old laptop or thumb drive 60km of perfectly scanned highway. In the end we are stuck with what runs the best and for DU its the baseline numbers that are based in realism along the progression line that is too realistic for its own good until they can add more fantasy / sci-fi elements in over time as they gain the ability to add more solar systems and take some of the realism based numbers out the window once we can actually travel to other soloar systems down the road.

 

Their progression line based in realism is wht I find the most strange which is we are supposed to be like 10k years in the future and somehow we start here at like the dawn of space travel like we got here and some kind of dark space age hit and we are starting from square 1 with 19th centry nazi rocket technology with fossil fuels and requiring us to build airplanes instead of space ships tht can actually haul more that 2 containers rated for anything under gold a 7.5 weight per L will likely require 20-40 Stabilizers to be added onto a 2 L ship. If you are an organization hoping to fill 8-10 L containers with a cew it will take like 80 stabilizers to haul just iron let alone the standard weight of 7.5 weight per liter. Its like we are starting in the stone age only in a space game.

I certainly don't see DU as realistic.

 

Edit: also I don't see it as arcade.

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30 minutes ago, Warlander said:

Their progression line based in realism is wht I find the most strange which is we are supposed to be like 10k years in the future and somehow we start here at like the dawn of space travel like we got here and some kind of dark space age hit and we are starting from square 1 with 19th centry nazi rocket technology with fossil fuels and requiring us to build airplanes instead of space ships tht can actually haul more that 2 containers rated for anything under gold a 7.5 weight per L will likely require 20-40 Stabilizers to be added onto a 2 L ship. If you are an organization hoping to fill 8-10 L containers with a cew it will take like 80 stabilizers to haul just iron let alone the standard weight of 7.5 weight per liter. Its like we are starting in the stone age only in a space game.

Well, the laws of physics don't change with time as far as I know xD so 10.000 years into the future we'll still need wings to fly in an atmospheric environment.

I find it strange tho that nobody remembers that 10k years ago humans used to fly with the Antonov nn-225 which had 88m of wingspan (~30m per wing) and the best we can do now is stack puny little m wings.

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1 hour ago, Triopalite said:

I certainly don't see DU as realistic.

 

Edit: also I don't see it as arcade.

Neither do I. Its some basic baseline numbers that are semi realistic (mileage may vary since a lot of numbers are so far off the mark).

 

Im not expecting it to be real nor do I want it to be a mirror image of reality as it would not leave any room for the Sci-fi that everyone really wants since this Nazi WW2 V2 Fossil Fuel V2 Rocket sim meets Kittyhawk learning to fly at the dawn of space flight wright bros sim they have going frankly sucks ass and I hope they start phasing that archaeic system out for more fun and efficient sci-fi parts to where I dont need 300 Stabilizers to fly 2 L containes of gold..

 

Just saying to clarify.

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19 hours ago, Triopalite said:

The way I got answers to these questions is simply by asking them (FDev) via support. Putting of course 'is this a true statement'.

 

Planets and travel were my main questions.

So no, you have to jump to get from system to system.

And no, planets are not full size in ED.

They have confirmed both of these things via replies to direct questions I sent.

 

It's easy, ask them directly yourself.

 

I would add, this does not make the game any less enjoyable. However it is nice to know if certain things they say are true or not.

I did ask them directly myself and got the opposite answer.  That was a long time ago though.  Fdev have been caught lying a few times so I was probably lied to.

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17 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

I don't need to measure it. All I need to know (speed, time and distance to the star) is displayed in the game.

 

OK, I have not played for a while, I didnt think the distance to star measurement was accurate enough (as in not enough decimal points) to see a change without flying for several real time days.

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1 hour ago, Underhook said:

OK, I have not played for a while, I didnt think the distance to star measurement was accurate enough (as in not enough decimal points) to see a change without flying for several real time days.

Within the bulge of the galaxy you can easily find very close neighbours with a distance of less than 1 LY. With 1000c it would take less than 9 h to reach the other system and around 1 h to see the distance changing in the last digit. But that doesn't happen.

 

It would have been technically possible to create a complete seamless universe in ED (even with individual instances for every system). But that would just make problems (e.g. the possibility to reach permit-locked systems) without significant benefit.

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Warping is so inefficient right now.  I hate the whole aspect of it.  I think a happy medium would be a Elite Dangerous type mechanic where a supercruise could be obtained.  Faster than 30k, but slower than warp.  

 

I know it's their game and they can do what they want with the architecture, but I damn well guarantee you that the average player after release is going to hate this "slowboating" travel.  There are going to be numerous complaints.  Some people won't complain, they just wont resub.  Traveling A to B should never take 3 - 7 hours if you can't afford warping.

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13 hours ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Within the bulge of the galaxy you can easily find very close neighbours with a distance of less than 1 LY. With 1000c it would take less than 9 h to reach the other system and around 1 h to see the distance changing in the last digit. But that doesn't happen.

 

It would have been technically possible to create a complete seamless universe in ED (even with individual instances for every system). But that would just make problems (e.g. the possibility to reach permit-locked systems) without significant benefit.

Thanks.  All that time playing ED and I never noticed a system closer than 3 LY.  I like your explanation of why the didnt do it.

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