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Caesares

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Posts posted by Caesares

    Realistic incentives for City building

    in Builder Forum

    Posted

    4 hours ago, vylqun said:

    Exactly that, all current MMORPG have prebuilt cities which normaly serve as trading hubs. We wont have that in DU, so most trading hubs will be on the sacntuary moons and, if possible, maybe at the arkship. There is just no need at all to build a city just for trading in some random location that isn't save from if there are no other incentives.

    Resources and positioning can cause such things. Look at Jita

    Realistic incentives for City building

    in Builder Forum

    Posted

    18 minutes ago, vylqun said:

    trading hubs, sure, yes, that's one of the only reason for players to build something resembling a city. Gas stations? just another shop in the trading hub if there is no special element for fast refills. Transports? either ships or player inventories, construction companies are most likely unneeded and materials just count as another item that shos, ships or a players inventory caries. And most traders won't really build a house around trading hubs, because traders live from being able to move. They will build their stall and thats it (players, especially traders tend to play in an economic way). 

     

    I think most of the reasons you think would lead to growing cities are just wishful thinking.

    I don't know. If you look at most games this is generally what happens, where business becomes centralized. Sure maybe the traders will need business but there will probably be players who will live in the area to support the trade hub and they will allow for the growing of cities into larger areas. But then again, there is no real example to go by. 

    Should automated static defences be added to duel universe?

    in The Gameplay Mechanics Assembly

    Posted

    Just now, CoreVamore said:

    Nopes, static defenses also come into play when the shield fails, think of static defense like a second form of defense, walls/doors the third form, etc.

    Nono I get that, but I mean like really powerful static defenses, ones that could make it so that a player wouldn't have to organize players to rule a planet but just use a massive series of fortifications. Something like that sounds a bit extreme

    Realistic incentives for City building

    in Builder Forum

    Posted

    On 4/11/2018 at 9:14 AM, vylqun said:

    To have a somewhat imersive experience in Dual Universe we definitely need to see cities. But why exactly would people create cities in DU if just use a vast amount of resources without any real benefit except for showing off?

     

    Normally city planning depends on  a lot of different factors, like the environment, available resources, especially food, the condition of the ground, expected industries etc. Those are mostly things that wont work in DU. On the other hand, building cities in DU has quite a lot of disadvantages, like being target for raiders, warmongers or just griefplayers. So without any real benefit or need to create cities we will at most have very few large organization building and maintaining a city as HQ and maybe one or two trading hubs. Mostly we'll see well hidden factories and bases which are statistically placed across the planets with nearly no clustering.

     

    There are two possible ways to facilitate cities. One is giving artificial benefits like production bonus or similar things, i wont advocate that as it is unrealistic and just shows a lack of creativity in the game design. The second way is giving realistic incentives. The only incentives that work on larger scales in a mmorpg are economic or security benefits or needs. Social or educational facilities can be mostly ignored (there could be University-Type elements that increase the speed of accumulating xp for the first 20% or something of the skilltree, with which organizations can cater to new players, but that wont be a real incentive for creating a city).

     

    In my mind there are three mechanics which would directly create the need for clustering buildings on a small area:

     

    1. Powergrid

    The first suggestion is, that all functional elements (Doors, electronics etc.) require electricity. Standard, small sized elements would need a marginal amount of power so, that a small generator that can easily be installed in every ship/building is sufficient to support them. More advanced facilities like factories, Elements with strong supporting effects (something like the University for example, or greenhouses), military elements (planetary turrets, shields, sensor units ...) however should have an exponential increase of the power required. Factory units for example should require enough power, that no stacking of small generators can support them.

    To support those power hungry elements players can build power plant elements which are extremely large on scale, like 64³m³. They would support buildings within a certain radius with a set amount of power and to increase that radius you could create power-relay stations. What does this do for city building? If players want to run a factory or other facilities they need to create a power plant. If a single power plant generates enough electricity to support several factories, then the economic way of action would be creating enough factories within the vicinity of a power plant to  effectively use the generated power. A large cluster of factories in turn needs military protection as it is a nice target for raiders, thus we have some kind of city growth. At the same time owners of those power plants could rent space in the effective radius for players which can afford to create a factory, but not the required power plant.

     

    This can be extended to every kind of large scale element which would be nice to have in a city, for example if we want a space port in the city. The simplest way would be to just create some flat areas for ships to land on. But what about quality of life services like refuelling or rearing constructs? Those actions can take ages. If we had large scale elements like a repair Dock, which repairs damaged ships in the vicinity if activated or refuelling stations, those can save a lot of time to players. Elements like that would also require a lot of power, thus the need for a power plant in the vicinity.

     

    In short, if every advanced element has a big size and a large power requirement, coupled with the need of power plants, we would by default see clusters of buildings which can be called cities.

     

    2. Resources

    We can see in some videos how the ground is removed with a tool, its fast, efficient and effortless. if we can mine resources in this way, then DU players will be like a big locust swarm, run across the surface of a planet, scanning and within hours mining all interesting resources. But a big influence on city-building is the need to create a permanent structure in specific places, thus mining resources should definitely not be near-instant. Optimally mining out a big underground ore vein should take years if done by hand or several months when done with elements for mining. If we have long term mining then locations get a certain economic and strategic importance. If an organization finds a large vein of a rare metal it can't just mine it and go away, it has to defend this place against other players. Thus they need to create defensive structures, which again need power plants. If you have defensive structures and power plants on a mining base and some power surplus due to it then its economic to just continue and create the needed refinery elements etc. too, which in turn leads to clusters of buildings again.

     

    3. Dependencies

    Similar as all functional elements require electricity there can be other dependencies which make it necessary to create several constructs at the same place. In the new content update we learn about market Bots, where resources can be sold for quanta and elements can be bought (probably very limited after crafting is implemented, but maybe some of the most basic elements can still be bought). Those Quanta and elements aren't created from void and the sold resources can't spontaneously vanish. So if someone wants to place market bots in his base, it would make sense to require a trading hub element in the vicinity. There are quite some heavy industries which are dependent on water as coolant, so some refinery elements could actually need water purification plants in the area, the same plants could be used to support greenhouses or other buildings with water. If several buildings depend on each other there is a huge potential to incline people to gather together and create cities. Especially as everyone has a limited amount of cores available.

     

    ########

     

    I really think that those three points are absolutely necessary for a good experience in DU and will lead to some pretty interesting results.

    I believe cities will pop up around trading hubs. Trading hubs need markets. Markets need stations and gas stations. Gas stations need transport and goods from far away. Transport needs more stations and infrastructure which need construction. Construction needs construction companies which then need more materials, which then bring traders to the area which then make houses and bases, and so the city begins to grow and grow in such a way similar to western cities. Additionally all these facilities would need maintenance, security, and transport infrastructure for just walking, which on it's own would help spur business, and perhaps even power as you mentioned. Mining should not be too easy on a large scale, or else it will make it to easy and flood the market, but it should not be turned into a difficult thing to do either. The cities that are made around just around resources are always temporary. Jita, in EvE, became a trade hub because it used to be full of asteroids. Now you can hardly see a single one, but because all the players went there to sell and buy goods and now there are factories there it remains an important area. 

     

    What ends up happening is that if a city is built near resources and is able to build other infrastructure, say services, factories, and trading houses, it will be able to then simply use these massive facilities to work imported goods, which will then support the trading houses and because of all the volume people will go there, which increases volume which generally increases the amount of people going to that trade hub, etc. I think that factories and other such added value processes should be expensive investments, not mobile operations, as this will force centers of commerce to form and cause cities to grow more easily. 

     

    That's just my personal opinion, I am open to any other ideas. 

    Possible exploits and ways to prevent them

    in General Discussions

    Posted

    On 3/22/2018 at 4:00 PM, CalenLoki said:

    How can system get exploited? How can it be improved to prevent exploits?

     

    That's my usual way of thinking. Especially when I encounter interesting and complex system, like DU.

     

    So I have some possible exploits in mind, that probably were discussed, or there is game mechanic I'm not aware of that takes care of them already.

     

    I marked possible solutions with colours, based on my subjective opinions:

    Green means it would help to fix the problem

    Yellow means it wouldn't hurt, but doesn't really change much regarding that exploit. Or is really complicated to implement.

    Red breaks more than it fix.

     

    1. Building base deep underground with extremely hard to breach defences. Can't use battleships, because it's too deep. Infantry assault is like Soviet unarmed infantry charging German MG lines at Stalingrad. Digging is prohibited by TU.

     

    Possible solutions:

    A. Forcing some of valuable devices to be placed close to the surface. Obviously all farming, but that doesn't help much. TU seems like the best candidate. Forcing TU shallow enough that battleship cannons can dig seems like best solution for now.

    B. Require special gear and resources to survive at large depths. Just like D. it would only fix the problem if those resources can't be stored for longer than length of typical battle. And would hurt hidden bases without TU, that aren't really problematic.

    C. Harder to dig deep? It's only initial cost. And also increase durability of underground base, so it can be closer to surface.

    D. Solar panels/wind wanes as only renewable energy? That would work only if energy storage were inefficient (energy vaporising over time). Also sieges would be long boring waiting.

    E. Some assault system, where TU protection goes down after attackers with there enough time? Same problem as D. and B. - waiting. If digging protection shuts down during assault (as suggested by @gladiator5501) then all surface bases defences become too easy to avoid by tunnelling.

    F. Exponentially increased maintenance cost? Damage over time to anything that is deep underground? Would work, but may be taxing on server. And hurts hidden bases.

    G. Provided by @ShioriStein: Gas weapons. But that would require liquid physics, which we probably won't get anytime soon. Same apply to flooding such base with water.

    H. By @Hades: Make TU protect only close to the surface, leaving depths impossible to protect from digging. Would allow night-mining of enemy resources, without any viable counter.

    I. Make TU buble shape, rather than column. A bit far from currently implemented system - but that's probably how it gonna work in space. Would limit the amount of stone you need to blow up to get to nearest TCU. Would lead to nice staged battles, as you'd fight for small parts of enemy base (i.e. only for storage section) It would also make it independent from hex-grid, thus more natural.

    J. By  @ShioriStein@Kurock@Felonu: Make digging with explosives/weapons quick and cheap. That makes surface bases completely obsolete (just like E.), but at least fix the underground bases problem.

    K. By @Felonu@ostris:Limit dispenser-storage (item link) range. Would at least force underground bases to have entrance for cargo vehicles.

     

    2. Automated AFK mining. What if I build and program my hovercraft to go in pattern, jump on, block/macro dig button and leave it for night to dig whole ore vein?

     

    Possible solutions:

    A. Provided by  @Atmosph3rik: Resources should be in non-solid, odd-shaped veins, so strip mining is extremely inefficient. Sounds like efficient solution without side effects.

    B. Limit players inventory capacity. But it's easy to set macro to once per 10 minutes turn around, use dispenser to clear inv, then go back to mining. And it would hurt long mining trips on foot (I don't mind, as IMO you should use some kind of vehicle with you most of the time).

    C. Limiting how much character can mine per day. I.e. make mining generate heat, which cools several times slower when not mining. The longer you mine, the slower it goes. I.e. after 2h you mine 2x slower, after 10h you mine 10x slower. That would hurt legit no-life miners, which I wouldn't mind, but some players probably would.

     

    3. Provided by @Omfgreenhair: New player's bases boxed with basic materials in safe-zone by troll (who may demand payment for removing the structure)

     

    Possible solutions:

    A. TU makes it impossible due to size of protected area. But it's not really within reach of new player

    B. Static constructs have weaker version of TU (few meters around the construct) built in, making griefer work more time consuming. Especially considered that you need to dig under base as well, to fully block someone.

    C. Limit players to single static constructs within ASA per account. That shouldn't harm anyone sane, and would help against ASA clutter. This way troll could troll just one player.

    D. Limit usage of very basic resources in constructs (rock, dirt, snow). But that would hinder creativity too much.

    E. Provided by @Kurock: Allow players to re-park ships that someone parked too close to your construct, even if it means some clipping. Should fix the problem with dynamic constructs used for boxing.

     

    Know the solution? Share.

    Think of some other exploit? Share too.

    Building a base deep underground would be essentially useless, as the person would have to leave eventually and people can just setup defenses or traps outside to get the person once he gets out. 

     

    If AFK mining is made a thing than it could be bad for the general economy as this is potentially easily done by bots. Unpredictable ore veins should be standard.

     

    In a safe zone perhaps there should be a way to teleport back to a central place or die to end up in center, and make it so there are roads so that players who stick to roads don't get stuck. 

    Meeting the Aliens.

    in Roleplay & Lore

    Posted

    On 7/25/2017 at 1:41 AM, 0something0 said:

    I think there shouldn't be any actuall alien civs, but ruins, and trying to find a great filter and solve the fermi paradox. But i dont have $7000 lying around...

     

    I also was thinking not only alien ruins, but other ruins from failed ark ships

    I agree, but I just think that they should exist but not be centralized and under a government, maybe be controlled by different warlords or merchant-kings. 

    Meeting the Aliens.

    in Roleplay & Lore

    Posted

    On 7/2/2017 at 6:34 AM, Gerald_Deemer said:

    “Two possibilities exist: either we are alone in the Universe or we are not. Both are equally terrifying.”

     

    I think NQ will do the right thing... ^_^

    That is an amazing quote

    Dual Universe Building Fonts - Ennea Font

    in Idea Box

    Posted

    On 3/28/2018 at 4:17 PM, Loughlin said:

    Building in Dual Universe could do with a simple basis font that is small so that it can create any letter, and the larger the font is the more different it can become. for the limited options of small sized fonts a simple name for that font would be useful; Which I propose as Ennea Font. (Ennea is greek for 9; the amount of voxels this type of font takes up per letter.

    There is also a Hexa Font. Alas, some letters are hard to read at this level.

    W and M require a minimum of 4 voxels wide, and I doesn't need any width. S is actually more legible as 2 voxels wide. 

    I hope having names for these fonts and the font being available to be copied for in game will speed up some design processes.

     

    ~Loughlin

    EnneaFont-Loughlin.JPG

    HexaFont.JPG

    This is a very interesting conversation. Almost all sci-fi games and movies have to try and separate themselves from the real world, and one of the ways of doing that is different fonts. Interesting to see what will come of this.

    What happens to people with old packages?

    in General Discussions

    Posted

    Hello all,

     

     

    It has been a while since I have been active in the Dual Universe community, and I noticed that they changed the game packages to bronze, silver and gold packs. I bought a Saphire back a long while back, and I would like to know if I now have gold pack perks or the same as Saphires, and if so how can I find my perks? Thanks. 

    Alpha Postponed. Thoughts:

    in General Discussions

    Posted

    4 hours ago, Shockeray said:

    I just wanted to see what you guys thought about the post by NQ-Nomad in:

     

    I don't really see the problem. They have shown us a lot of what they have done, and they are making remarkable progress. Even if it is 'postponed' it would be premature to say anything at this point, especially all the progress that has already been made. 

    Do not implement one currency / Implement endless currencys

    in Idea Box

    Posted

    3 minutes ago, yamamushi said:

    @Rafiki if you're really interested in pursuing a cryptocurrency project in DU, let me know. I know that I've discussed some of my ideas with @Caesares recently, but a project like this will take quite a long time to put together. 

    Yes, I am very interested. One of these projects could be an interesting first in not just gaming, but the world. There are definite difficulties to making one, but there are also definite rewards. 

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