le_souriceau

Consindering "asteroid mining" incoming relativly soon (and whole balancing it brings)... I wonder, what is actual situation with ore on planets? And wanted to propose to consolidate our empyrical observations (your/of your friends/org mates) and general thoughts. Here is mine: T1: Still abundant almost everyhere. Even with current T1 "burning" to bots player population seems to be too small (and dropped even smaller) to seriously damage T1 supply in next several months. T2 OK. With ocasional traces of someone else mining (on more popular planets), usualy its not that hard to find ore just next tile. Will last awhile. T3 (beyond SZ): Depends -- on ore and planet. Not as easy as at begining, there is obvious "cleared" patches, even in "worst" cases still doable with some scanning and patience. May be hot thing for asteroids eventualy. T4-T5 (beyond SZ): Overall -- bad, yet again -- depends on ore. Some are totaly non-economical to mine (immense time waste to find even negligible quantity), others -- still possible, but detiorating every day. We need asteroids with them on idea of risk-reward. While may sound cruel to some, I think mineble asteroids must be 100% in PvP zone (especialy T1-T2-T3), because at least some "ore pressure", coupled with (eventualy) impoved PvP (both for attack and DEFENCE) -- only way to produce natural specialization, dynamics and gameplay-loops. And probably important way for DU survive until release and territory warfare as game with some activity. Also, most importantly, for a change NQ need to be careful with new feature and not outright generate mega-nodes or other radical things. Just try concept with smaller nodes and observe/collect data how it will roll live with people mining and fighting around -- then, if something not good -- add more. Because otherwise I can almost predict classical NQ fail-cringe, when they "by mistake" generate 3 kk nodes of T5s and someone fast and furious ("big org") grab it without any opposition and everyone else grumpy forever. Generaly I super-suspicious of NQ repeating 1st week errors again. Wery little of confidence in their disign judgement left. Your thoughts?

Beyond colleteral, I have very low expectations on initial implementatation level. It likely be totaly un-balanced, full of exploits and bugs, with early grinders cutting good money with little effort (abusing weak spots), until NQ slowly fix something. So far NQ not done anything in major features list right from fist try. Good if I'm wrong.

May be because you very experienced, early-start, relativly in game wealthy and lot-of-play-time player? This why you not in demographics that were hurt most by this so called update.

This round 2 of nudging ahead in form of energy. Also, eventualy -- [relative] ore scarcity, that will make it harder from smaller actors, who not having decent in-house mining ops. Serious quantities of SZ T1s is now burned to bots, while its still a lot of it, it will be noticeble with time.

Also, if territories in SZ have randomized energy efficiency, then it will be mad rush for rescan empty ones and grab most valuable ones...

Wipe is worse. Because it will produce unpredictable losses in already thin playerbase. Especialy after NQ condemned us for this "schematics grind" in which many people already invested literaly days of soulkilling grind. It will be cruel mockery to wipe AFTER this.

Yes, but most players who were involved in this see it coming and invested quick money into valuable assets, or splitted money between alts/friends, so neglegable ammount of money was actualy lost/wiped with this mostly decorative action of NQ.

0.23 was already beaten from all possible angles. Beyond other things, it showed, that: 1) NQ can (and possible will from now on) act more agressivly/risky on existing economics; 2) Pretty high level of collateral damage to existing systems/playerbase accepted. Also there is near future and new updates (for this who still care). At this point I'm quite, to be honest... distrustful toward NQ, expected them to bring more "suprises", that gravitate towards "soft wiping" by devaluation of our existing assets (via bad balance, disign or both). So: 1) New money making methods Suprise one. I fear we can not even imagine what this "jobs/methods" will be. Something browrising? Anyway... Short term: people will gring like crazy and use this money (in total mockery of JC vision how things supposed to be) to bankroll own private industries. Long term: ore prices probably rise, because less people will be mining and more industries back in action. (Not) suprise two. My bet: at first they do very bad balancing (as always), so initialy jobs will be too profitable or too low paying. 2) Asteroids Here principal question (and suprise) is if they will be in PvP zone. Or not completly (like T1-T2 there and T3-T5 there). Or demand some huge investment (ship equipment). Or how effective it will be towards old planetary mining. All tricky in terms of "soft wiping/blocking out of content" issues. And combo of this how NQ roll it... dangerous. If ore (of any tier) is too easy to aquire it will devalue all current stock (hurting players who was in hope to preserve some value in ore, soft-wiping their capitals). If ore is too hard to aquire (seriously PvP/investment or both dependant), it will practicaly "block-wipe" many players from stable aquisiton of more valuable ores in future (under pretext that they need to use market to buy it), mirroring situation with high-end industry. This will produce severe "big org hate" tension, obviously. Overall, considereing JC ideas of how easy mining is and overall trend to force specialization, I expect "hard" version, with huge chunk of players futher locked our economicly. Or not? You thought? Money? Ore? Items? Any ideas what now is good thing to invest to not lose value with new soft-wiping miracles?

Mining is probably next : ) "Not everyone supposed to mine".

Short-term -- harmful. Long-term -- useless. Most people not "concdede defeat" and will pretty quickly claw back (generating hatred over grind) to at least T3 individualy/in small groups, with time -- critical T4. Alts usage or patience cover needed skills. Moment NQ introduce "fun" methods of grinding money, players immediately start to use them to bankroll own private industries with doubled or trippled force. JC with now his disign generaly tries to do something against wind.

Because you were not playing game as it supposed by JC.

Overall, I think our hopes now depend on JC's ability to give it all fresh, critical look, even if this is unpleasant. He is scientist after all and must understand, that sometimes experiments or much beloved before theories fail, its nothing wrong to accept it and continue work in little bit new direction.

Yep, but there 2 factors here. 1) NQ was little bit spoiled by tame and passive surviving alpha player base and expected less resistance over their magic tricks from new guys too. Not worked out. 2) They, I think, not currently that worring about subs (because if you do math with projected player numbers), its not tha much -- nice bonus, but not sole source of their survival. So, likely, they sitting on debt now and just gone all-in for release (with losses on road considered not critical). So, in wicked sense, we are disposables right now.

Not exactly true:

Its likely was. I but they needed to win some time and decided all cringe will worth it. What drives me almost rabid in my salt levels -- not even this patch, but previous links in chain -- during Alpha we in our feedback practicaly begged NQ to not DU IT like this, totaly predicting all "mega-factories" and "ez mode" and other problematic things now being so clumsly "adressed". Yet they started game in almost opossite mockery, allowing people get warps and AGGs like in first day?

Yep, this is total abomination of idea! And, also, if impelented, will be god level hypocrisy. Like JC smashing economy with soft wipe of paywalls for "players too isolated, not using markets enough", but this will exactly do this: isolate builders in their own virtual building reality forever (especialy -- from market, they will not need anything "material" anymore), we will be seeing only their "show off" screenshots, not them. No. No. And no.

Doing it for some time, generated zero profit : )

Many of us like to go salty on JC/NQ from time to time, but this particular joke quite of bad taste, to be honest.

@WeekendAvenger and other guys, I have proposal for you and question. To expand a bit usefullness fo NQ (if they read). DU is obviously MMO game with competitive part (I's often used as argument "not your game"). I believe contrary -- DU must become game for much larger population, solo players included. But not all content will be realisticly reacheble for solo/micro group (or time will be enourmous), or dising will not make sense for larger groups. So, question (for you and others to come): what is you comfortable reachable level of content/participation/economics in game to stay, enjoy as solo/micro group?

I think "weakest point" of JC/NQ is understanding/underestimating players behaivor in building-hoarding games, so they fails to predict relativly obvious pattern/powers/tricks, that will be put in action againt their vision. In twisted way, players kinda always... outplay them here, leaving devs several steps behind to stuggle with patching of breaches made in their (often naive) plans. So advice here is simple: listen community members with cynical brains burned by mega-hours of playing games. They have best hints about what will be put against you in this or that disign. (like we, forum angels team, warned NQ about most incoming major issues! to be honest).

Thing, is JC obsessed with to "fixing" symptom, not cause of problem. Cause of problem -- severe, choking lack of content to produce different families of resources/goods in horizontal (yet interconnected) chains and pay them with different sources of income. Give this and most people will be much more eager to trade.

Upvote is dogdy. It can be used/interpreted any way (and when) NQ wants, icluding generaly "against us" by adding legimatization of obscure BS majority never actualy asked for. Personaly, I suspect there is some internal power factions, that have different views and game and try to push their agendas in disign, not caring how it all works togheter. Start of beta > triumph of internal DU "carebear" faction with obviously exessive safezoning and free goodies. This update > stinks of not that bright "harsh reality" ideas of former EVEian on retiment, who not understand how DU fundamentaly rolls.

Yep, I personaly feel very bad NQ made new players to pay most of price for their previous and obvious errors (that some of us -- older players almost begged not to do). Most atrocious thing in this "mass murder of lambs", to large extent its done in vain and not adress fundamental problems. All what NQ done -- is crude delaying action by throwing a bags of re-grind in already grindy game. Most (remaining) players will eventualy claw their way back to T1-T2, some critical T3 and regain all this self-sufficiency so hated by JC, small orgs -- probably make it up to T4. T5 remain for billionaires and large orgs, but not that big of a deal. JC generaly not understand how his game works and, most importantly, how his player base works. He stuck in more and more alienated fantasies "how it should be played".

Its not a conspiracy, generaly -- fact. Every Beta update so far was leaked (at least-- by ATV) to some level of penetration into population. Starting with info about how Beta will be rolled (world details/useful tips), then returned wrecks were leaked, then this. This one just most outrageous, because most impactful. While I perfectly understand, that NQ extreamly not eager to aknowledge this, I hope they at least trying to plug leaking sources internaly (like some purges in ATV for starters).