Rimezx

Some of us are now sitting on dozens of industry machines we can't reasonably use.  There's no reasonable buy orders for them.  How about some bot orders so we can unload the excess machines for a reasonable price?

Did you even do the math? where did you get the 10 mil from the previous post?  12 mil is only the exceptional parts and 5 mil the warp cell. It should be around 20 mil for 1 cell every 50 mins if not more.  Very few people are gonna bother doing this for months just to START making profit. Not to mention that you have to pay a sub to do so. This is ridiculous. The price of 1 cell will get to levels like 50k per cell for a while. Gl bringing loads from the pvp zone with warp. Anyway if you guys think this is okay just wait for the game to die. Then you will realize just how okay this is at this point.
 
Gl finding people in the pvp zone risking their now irreplaceable ships. No entering the pvp zone because of the risk + no warp because of cost = dead game.

The schematic prices are fine for T1 but as the tier progresses it is becoming ridiculous.
 
For example check warp cell price make a calculation of how much the schematics would cost to get 1 cell every 50 mins production.
After that do the math of how many warp cells you can produce per day and how much profit you make per warp cell. If you do the math
to regain the initial investment out of profit you need something like 140 days of selling warp cells to the market. 
 
Haven't calculated for other rare recipes like AGG, which will take like a year of selling AGGs to start making profit. Doesn't this seem too 
much? Was this intentional? 
 
I think the power per rarity level in the formula needs adjustment. It should be around 2 weeks of time to start making profit even for the rarest
items. Any more than that and it is too much in my opinion.
 
 
 

This game does not have enough content to support this current update. The idea was a correct step but executed prematurely. 
 
This game has a lot of potential. Was really enjoying it with groups of friends that havent found a common game to play in a very long time. 
 
Its a shame really but this patch just took the wind out of the sails.. 
The only solice of content was the ability to make creative builds. There really wasnt much else going on. 
 
On top of this from what I have seen in response to this update is that developers are not listening to their player base. Which i see as detrimental and destructive to the future of the game. Ive seen this path travelled many times. 
 
I understand that it is your vision to create. But there is always the customer to consider. 
 
Personally I would of considered this patch or better yet a (different concept to create the same effect) but much further when there was more foundation support it. Like more content in general. 
 
Best of luck with your future aspects of the game. Don't turn deaf ears to your players. Perhaps i will check back on this game sometime in the future. 

I'm replying kind of late to this discussion. I have read only the first few pages of replies so my reply might include or repeat ideas mentioned in replies before mine.
 
I believe these changes will only hurt the game at this point and especially the starting players, who are vital to the game's sustainability. It would not change much for an older player already possessing enough capital to buy schematics, instead it will launch them further ahead from everyone else. I believe that the economy is not working as it should right now because the resources are not spent in any way. The only ones buying new elements are more or less the starters. We are depending on them to sell our products and make profit, since even the elements of ships lost in pvp return to the market again. Atmospheric pvp/ territory control/ element destruction have to be implemented first. After these are in the game, then you see how the economy moves and only then you can decide on a change like this. Right now the economy simply cannot move as it should.
 
Problems with this idea:
 
1. "Omni" factories that can produce everything will still be made. The only thing that will change is the amount of units required to achieve the same result and that not by much. I have such a factory myself right now and I'm not a member of an organization yet. 
2. If all refined/product/intermediate/complex parts are maintained the only units requiring changes to schematics will be the assembly lines. People will just do that instead. 
3. How will a new player build his/her first ships? Considering you do not have a way of transporting goods from and to the market in order to start by selling and buying. A new player will have to rely on help from other players to get jumpstarted, otherwise it will be a pain and will definitely send players away.
4. It will exaggerate the already existing problem of finding specific low cost items on a nearby market, like specific small lights for example, that not many producers will work on. 
5. It will render many existing factories inoperable making the economy go haywire for a while. 
 
What i would propose instead:
 
Leave industry as is and consider only changes that will make it more fun and engaging instead of tedious. Like total energy management for example. Something that will not require unit to unit micromanagement but general base management. 
 
Instead, you could add a feature like organization talents which will require not only time but also resources from organizations to level. Each organization will be able to choose talents only from a limited amount of categories (mining/industry/military) etc. These talents should give the organization's members tremendous advantages in their respective field making the economy revolve around that. Organizations will need each other and solo players will be buying from these organizations because of the price efficiency these orgs will have making the market come to life. For example a starting player would still be able to craft something on their own but will never be able to match the price of an optimized organization factory made for said item.
 
A "Quality" factor could be introduced to elements. For example let's say an engine was produced from one of the best industry organization factories. This engine could have let's say a quality of 120% making it 20% more efficient and powerful than normal low quality engines. The starting/average player would still go for the low cost/ low quality engine whereas the savvy player will definitely use the market to buy one of these.
 
Allowing construct blueprint modification would work great along with this. Or adding this functionality to the repair unit. For example changing all space engine L on a blueprint with HQ space engine L without having to change them on a deployed construct. Then on deploy the construct would deploy exactly the same with the only difference being that the engines are of a different quality. This would also be useful for the high tier elements already planned to be introduced to the game. Replacing all elements on existing constructs manually would be a pain, considering how hard it is to place an element close to another at correct orientation without it going red with all the small bugs going on. 
 
Organization alliances could be introduced. Which would be an alliance of a limited number of organizations working together towards a common goal. It would be like forming a small nation. Of course population number restrictions will have to be introduced to organizations or mega orgs that will dominate the server will rise.
 
 

Idea:
 
Each ship is assigned a "signature radius" based on X * Y * Z of their cross section. This value isn't only tied to hit/miss formula, but also to radar detection range, identification speed, and lock speed. Then create a bunch of exotic voxels as "stealth coating". Ships with this coating have a bonus for significantly reduced signature radius, and are "stealth" in the sense of the word that's used for real-life aircraft, thus creating a stealth class in DU. As in other games involving stealth features, the voxels should have their adequate weaknesses.
 
Why:
 
These are two ideas bundled together. In earlier threads I suggested that to fix the borg cube meta, NQ should integrate cross section to the hit/miss formula. I'm glad they are going that way. I think one step beyond this would be introducing a signature radius value for every dynamic construct based on their cross sections. The signature radius value going into not only hit/miss but also radar-related formulas further demotivates the borg cube. It also creates more opportunities like stealth ships.
 
Many MMO's have "stealth" classes where the idea is choosing who you fight with, engaging and disengaging easier; with its own downsides. Eve Online carved a really good place for stealth ships too. I think DU has a potential here with a concept of ships "suddenly appearing on radar with a surprise attack". Better yet, they do not really need to 'cloak' like Eve. They just need to have reduced radar detection ranges, like real life. 
 
One opportunity to implement this is introducing a "stealth coating". The game would create great design opportunities by introducing honeycomb material with radar-resistance and stealth technology. The game would calculate how much of your ship is covered with stealth voxels (sort of how dimencia's hud calculates 'structural integrity'), and provide a bonus to reduce radar detection (the default 2 SU detection, not 'identification') range based on that value; thus creating a class of stealth ships which can be used for surprise attacks.
 
How Can They Be Balanced:
 
As in all other games, stealth class should bring in its own achilles' heels. Like in many other games, this can come in the form of HP weaknesses, and stealth cover diminishing upon engagement.
- Stealth coating drastically reduces the amount you can carry in cargo containers -prevent stealth freighters-.
- Stealth coating not only has low hp, but also drastically reduces the hp of all voxels of the ship -so you can't "tank" a ship and also use stealth coating on top of it-.
- Stealth benefits disappear upon firing guns or identifying a target -no untouchability when actually engaging-.

I was commenting in general, not necessarily about DU. But i disagree with you regardless. If pvp is only fighter vs fighter as you say or in general between parties that all consent to pvp, and especially in a "remote pvp only zone", that would make it irrelevant. Also it takes a lot of effort to locate and gank someone without him getting away. It's not that "easy" and worthwile as you might think.
 
I understand that you do not like nor want to participate in pvp but you need to understand that there are those who do. So the perfect solution should be somewhere in the middle. 
 
I suggest you read this post:
The guy lays the idea pretty accurately. 
 

Idea:
 
Deployable (some sort of re-scoopable static construct?) warp disruption area generators which cut the warp of ships short and stop them, if those ships enter the disruption area during their warps. Very similar to those we see in Eve. This idea is mechanically very applicable to Dual Universe given the game's current warp mechanics.
 
Why:
 
- A balanced sandbox game ecosystem needs non-consensual PvP. The kind of PvP that's not occurring between parties mutually agreeing to PvP. But the kind of PvP that's between pirates and prey, where at least one side (the prey) actually wants to have nothing to do with the said PvP. The prey has profit-based motivations such as hauling, mining, and so on. Then there should be people hunting the prey. And people hunting the pirates. A successful sandbox ecosystem thus finds a sustainable balance between these parties, where neither side's gameplay is neither too oppressive nor impossible; and there is meaningful play and counterplay for both sides.
 
- The current PvP iteration in DU has extremely minor opportunities for this kind of PvP. These pertain to seeking content in travel pipes between planets. And these sources will be diminishing once players progress in the learning curve, because it's extremely easy to avoid this kind of PvP as the prey side. And most importantly, once warp drives become more and more prevalent and common, they will hit the final nail as warps occur from a safe zone to a safe zone. Thus, warps need counterplay.
 
How could they be balanced?:
 
- The extent of the disruption zone can be balanced at the right window. Say if you are warping from the top of the Alioth Market Zone to Jago, you might get caught as it's a hot zone which pirates might be camping. But the same generator will not catch you if you move on Alioth 40 KM away from the markets at a 90 degrees direction, and start your warp there. I'd say 30-40 KM is good radius to go with. Thus, avoiding hot paths between planets during warp would be one counterplay (it's already super effective during  conventional space travel).
- The zones can appear in radar, and thus giving people at the landing side a chance to conduct recon and warn their friends before their warp.
- It can take time to deploy and scoop the generators. 
- The generators can be drastically costly, heavy, and be attacked/stolen. Thus forcing the pirates to "ante-up" if they want to catch people, opening up further conflict opportunities around the generators.
- The generators may not be deployed X SU within the distance of a non-PvP zone.

I'm not sure if this had been mentioned before, but is there a practical reason for having multiple different scraps with identical purposes?
 
Situation: Currently scrap only stacks with itself. There are recipes utilizing all the core elements to convert to unique scrap piles. All core elements of the same tier produce scrap that functions identically.
 
Trouble: This makes the scrap system a little convoluted with virtually no benefit to gameplay. Knowing what scrap falls into which tier and having to keep different piles of scrap depending on market prices just doesn't feel good. 
 
Action: Keep the separate recipes, but produce uniform outputs. The naming convention of Basic, Uncommon, Advanced, etc. already exists. Have all tier one scrap recipes produce 'Basic Scrap'. 
 
Resolution: This will continue to allow scrap made from all core elements, but streamline the products. It would further strengthen the core tier naming convention (Basic, Uncommon, Advanced, etc.) for new players. Would help declutter inventories.
 
P.S. The same could be done with fuel so you can more easily fill your space tanks.

It would be a cool idea to be able to tow/push/pull one ship with another. Now that move tool range limit is being considered it becomes even more appealing.
In combination with space overdrive mentioned on another post below in this thread it would be awesome. A module like tow beams or long range magnetism could be used.
It could have useful applications in many aspects of the game like:
 
-PVP: Slowing moving ships down and eventually stopping them by pulling and braking.
 
-Resque:
Pulling stuck ships from the bottom of ravines and so on.
Towing destroyed ships to their owners base.
Pulling space only ships that somehow managed to fall on a planet back in space.
 
It would be cool if space stations could be moved this way with limitations to where they can go of course.
 
 

The main problem right now is that the game basically has no endgame. PVP is meaningless and organizations barely have a reason to exist. What you are suggesting makes no sense. I am asking you the simple question, after you finish building all ships/bases/constructs you want to build at your own pace, then what do you do? Many of those "diehards" you are referring to have already reached that point.
 
Someone who plays and tries more than another person is bound to have an advantage. This is reality. If not then why would they do it in the first place. You cannot restrict other people's progress because it doesn't suit your time schedule. You can still coexist with these people without expecting to be equal to them. You can still chill and do whatever you want at whatever pace you want inside the safe zone. The only thing that would change for you is that you won't have easy access to the top technology. You would have to buy that off those organizations.
 
I play a lot of hours every day and have made a lot of progress but i haven't even joined an organization yet. Why? Because i do not need to. I can do everything on my own and that shouldn't be so. The only thing i would need from an organization right now is information. 
 
The only idea i would agree with would be to keep the current solar system as is and create a new one to apply the changes to, like mentioned on a post above. The resources of the new solar system should be abundant in volume and greater in quality than the current resources. That way less people will cry and organizations get to play their game. Since the resources do not respawn the current planets will eventually dry out and only then it will start becoming a problem for the non pvper. If a moderate resource respawn is added to the original system then it would be perfect. It will be basically be the question, do you want a lot or do you want to grind a little safely.

It would be a cool idea to be able to tow/push/pull one ship with another. Now that move tool range limit is being considered it becomes even more appealing.
In combination with space overdrive mentioned on another post below in this thread it would be awesome. A module like tow beams or long range magnetism could be used.
It could have useful applications in many aspects of the game like:
 
-PVP: Slowing moving ships down and eventually stopping them by pulling and braking.
 
-Resque:
Pulling stuck ships from the bottom of ravines and so on.
Towing destroyed ships to their owners base.
Pulling space only ships that somehow managed to fall on a planet back in space.
 
It would be cool if space stations could be moved this way with limitations to where they can go of course.
 
 

I would like to see an option to add a talent and preferably the whole set (i.e If i want to add ranks 1-4 of the same skill) added to the front of the training queue.
 
Dragging skills 1 at a time up the queue is really sub optimal, made worse by the way it works.

Very bad way to implement this in my opinion. It should be so ONLY in space pvp. Distance in planet atmosphere should be much less. I'd say it should be the build zone of the core and only if someone with move tool or pilot rights is within it. If you load a ship in atmosphere and the game crashes in a populated zone like near a marketplace (happens regularly by the way), at least one person is bound to be in range of seeing your ship and it will crash.
 
+There are gonna be those people that will fly close to a disconnected ship so that it crashes on purpsose for a laugh.
 
A mechanic like magnetism or tow beams that lets a ship pull another ship from a distance to stop ships in pvp would be a great idea. It could also be used for towing or slowing something down in general. Would be a fine gameplay addition to resque ships/organizations. 

I've been discussing these changes with my friends since the start of the beta and its nice to see what we've been thinking from the start being considered. There are some issues to be addressed first though regarding these changes.
 
1. AGG 
As it has been mentioned above, the AGG mechanics should be made clear before any change is implemented. Is the AGG supposed to function without someone sitting on the command seat? If yes i suggest that the AGG is made to work reliably for a time limit after all players leave the construct. You should be able to enable AGG jump and and trade then go back up and move the ship. I think AGG ships that never land should be nerfed. You can make the ship at least be able to land itself without any cargo load. 
 
2. Time to move into command seat
I think there should also be a small time after loading back after a disconnect to get back to the seat before the momentum returns. For example after getting disconnected and loading back there should a warning that you have 20 seconds or something like that before the momentum returns and as soon as someone sits in the command seat the momentum should return. If you get disconnected during a crucial time like atmosphere entry without agg or landing close to the ground and the momentum returns instantly on load, even 2-5 seconds of not controlling the ship could be fatal. If it is to be perfect the ship should remember engine thrust levels too after loading back, but i do not expect that much ?
 
Further suggested changes:
AGG should start at your current altitude instantly on activation and then you can change the base altitude for it to move you.
AGG base altitude should be different for each planet considering what the mean altitude of the ground is at that particular planet. There shouldn't be AGG friendly planets like Thades.
All floating platforms should be nerfed and removed. Makes no realistic sense and also they are flying hazzards. You should not be able to place a static core if no part of the grid is touching the ground or another core. 
Core stacking on top of each other should be limited and space elevators be removed from the game. I managed to hit one in orbit with a speed of 3900 once  . Anyway its ugly makes no sense and it shouldn't be possible.
 
 

I've been discussing these changes with my friends since the start of the beta and its nice to see what we've been thinking from the start being considered. There are some issues to be addressed first though regarding these changes.
 
1. AGG 
As it has been mentioned above, the AGG mechanics should be made clear before any change is implemented. Is the AGG supposed to function without someone sitting on the command seat? If yes i suggest that the AGG is made to work reliably for a time limit after all players leave the construct. You should be able to enable AGG jump and and trade then go back up and move the ship. I think AGG ships that never land should be nerfed. You can make the ship at least be able to land itself without any cargo load. 
 
2. Time to move into command seat
I think there should also be a small time after loading back after a disconnect to get back to the seat before the momentum returns. For example after getting disconnected and loading back there should a warning that you have 20 seconds or something like that before the momentum returns and as soon as someone sits in the command seat the momentum should return. If you get disconnected during a crucial time like atmosphere entry without agg or landing close to the ground and the momentum returns instantly on load, even 2-5 seconds of not controlling the ship could be fatal. If it is to be perfect the ship should remember engine thrust levels too after loading back, but i do not expect that much ?
 
Further suggested changes:
AGG should start at your current altitude instantly on activation and then you can change the base altitude for it to move you.
AGG base altitude should be different for each planet considering what the mean altitude of the ground is at that particular planet. There shouldn't be AGG friendly planets like Thades.
All floating platforms should be nerfed and removed. Makes no realistic sense and also they are flying hazzards. You should not be able to place a static core if no part of the grid is touching the ground or another core. 
Core stacking on top of each other should be limited and space elevators be removed from the game. I managed to hit one in orbit with a speed of 3900 once  . Anyway its ugly makes no sense and it shouldn't be possible.