kulkija
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Posts posted by kulkija
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3 hours ago, Jinxed said:
For me, the #1 priority is PLAYER CONTROLLED MARKETS.
For a game that is ostensibly "player controlled" it's stupid how many bots there are.... bot ore digging, bot or selling, bot scematic purchasing, bot land registry and remote disable of machinery, bot mission givers, bot mission receivers, bot marketplaces, bot taxmen, bot safe zone.
Players actually have very little agency at all in this game.
Yes please PLAYER CONTROLLED MARKETS as described at Kick starter.
Also whole "D" is missing in RDMS. D=Duties. RDMS is not yet finished.
QuoteHow can one create a market?
Markets are built within a construct. It starts with a Market Unit, which is an Element that you can craft or buy, and that you deploy somewhere in the construct. Various levels of Market Units will exist to stage the maximum number of orders it can support. Skills will also be involved to know whether you can operate a market of a given level.
QuoteWill there be market NPCs?
Yes, to help boost the economy we will introduce market NPCs, or “bots” (we prefer this term because they won’t have a physical presence in the world). Bots will appear as buy or sell orders in the list of player-made orders. The difficulty is to make sure that they stabilize but not disturb the natural market dynamics driven by players, which involves a bit of AI to get it right. Bots will amplify player activities, not replace them. If you set up a market in the middle of nowhere, isolated, don’t expect thousands of bots to come and sell you everything you need! Note: this may be different in alpha, as we will use bots on market to provide you with assets that you cannot yet craft.
In the long run, our hope is that bots will become less necessary, or even completely disappear, as humans take over the whole economy.
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1 hour ago, SlaySomething said:
Once the bots go, the market is going to be so saturated with lower tier ore that it won't be worth the cost of fuel to fly to the market and sell it. New players are going to have a terrible first time user experience trying to figure out how to make money.
If bots go...
Territory taxes are so heavy that if bots stop buying at Guaranteed price bad and unexpected things can happen.
It is also possible that if bots go ore supply decrease due players are not able to pay territory upkeep.
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6 hours ago, SlaySomething said:
By allowing anyone to simply purchase mining units to gain all tiers of ore passively, they are going to flood the market with raw ore.
I agree that mining is bad bad bad experience
How ever how it affects Markets and game economy is not this simple
Ore is material for all crafting and industry. If cheap ore is available then all prices are low. Ships, constructs, elements, warp cells etc. This benefits those who earn money by other means than just selling raw ore. (selling raw materials is not wery clever way doing business)
Mining units also need upkeep in terms of Territory taxes and tedious calibration. Who wants mine any more ore than necessary.
Lowest buy price is what bots offer. If selling to bots ore goes out of the circulation, vanishes from game world.
Free markets don't exist right now, because Market places are run by NPC (Aphelia)
Only when Player markets (Market units) are enabled free markets can emerge.
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I don't care about money of my subs.
I don't care about talent points because they are 100% passive nonsense.
I don't care about quanta or constructs.
I do care about my time. Time I've invested to this game.
I'm 66 years old, my time is slowly coming short.
Life is most valuable asset I have. Ever day, every hour i spend in this game I have less and less of my time left. It is not infinite.
@NQ When considering this wipe issue, please respect your players time.
- Sabretooth, Messaline, Bazzy_505 and 7 others
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49 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:
The people with 80 accounts definitely didn't pay 3600 Euros for them, although at some point someone did.
What has happened is that a lot of people have left the game over time and given their accounts to other people when they did so. Some people have collected a lot of accounts in this way so, although they weren't free to begin with, they were free to the person who is currently using them.
Of course there are also people who paid a lot of money for a lot of accounts and also people who paid for the accounts they got from others in other ways, I don't want to knock anyone's hard work or contributions. Just that there are people who have a lot of accounts and at least some of those are ones they got for free.
Also I think each account got an extra free beta key at some point and you could go '60E for 1 main + 2 beta', so 'only' 1,600E for 80 accounts. I think a lot of many-multiboxers have more like 20-30 each so it is believable that those were bought for hundreds of Euros.
I slightly disagree.
1st: Using other players main account is against EULA
There has been no extra beta-key giveaway by NQ.
QuoteAlso I think each account got an extra free beta key at some point and you could go '60E for 1 main + 2 beta',
Do you have source for this.
No beta-keys are "free". They were supposed to be gifted, so if someone has exploited that and got lots of those it is a shame. How ever event those were not free.
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2 minutes ago, Sycopata said:
Sorry but non exist PVE in dual universe.
We have this loop:
gathering>industry>build>PvP
some people avoid the last steep of the loop, but is the only loop we have.
I can easily see another loop:
gathering>mining>industry>Arms,Ammo,Fuel,Warp cells > Supply to pvp:ers
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1 hour ago, m0rrty said:
part of this description is implemented in the Dispensers, exactly how it is explained (with a link to a container).
Part of this is market unit that is used by Aphelia, this one does not have a link or a container, it is just connected to a global market system.
So, your answer to "how player is to manage the market" is the way how dispenser work?
There is organization, who has 90% of all elements in their big ship - SVEA. They manage it as you want. However, they also wish some more improvements to Dispensers, as they are not very comfy.
I do not think this all explains how player should manage market... sorry... I really wish you could share your own vision on it
Not my vision.
If you read the full article it is all there.
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24 minutes ago, m0rrty said:
Can anyone explain in details, how the player should manage the market? Is it only take tax to player, is that all? I wish someone could explain all the details
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I don't think that wipe has any game-play related reasons such as inequality.
It is also possible that it is wery difficult to fix known issues without a wipe.
Many are saying that problems must be solved and issues fixed before wipe.
How ever it may be that technically wipe is necessary part of those upcoming fixes.
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2 hours ago, PotatoMart said:
Your argument is lagging because what do we have now?
No margins, an oversupply of ores, elements that are sold below cost, and if everyone can make everything, there will be no more trade.
Corps always have advantages over single players and so it should be, DU is not a single player game.
If you have to destroy a certain number of Schematic to be able to make a better one, then the ore price would rise, while many Materials are consumed and not everyone can make everything, there would be much better trade.
This whole "oversupply conversation" is wrong at start.
Industry manufactures only elements witch are supposed to use in constructs.
Using automated machinery (Indy units) produces almost no added value. It is then no problem if elements or what ever is produced by industry has low margins. That is how free market works (capitalism)
When those standard elements are used in constructs, a skilled builder may add lots of value to final product, ship or base.
Then margins can be higher if elements and parts are cheap.
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11 minutes ago, Leppard said:
If big orgs suvive this wipe they will have the first tiles claimed on Alioth near a market (1-10) within the first day - and then everything will be quite like before the wipe.
This time it will even be faster than at the start of the beta, because the knowlege and experience is on the side of the older players.
Big orgs will have internal supply and demand.
Other players will create demand at starting moons.
So those orgs which wanna sell their stuff will put them for sale at markets there.
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After wipe there will be no "Market 6"
Supply will be where demand is.
When everyone starts at Sanctuary or Heaven, demand is there and so will supply be.
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I wonder what is the point to introduce late-game features, such as Space market, Alien cores, plasma collectors, plasma material, and all those new high tier elements.
While at the same time planning to reset game back to start.
If, after reset, player progression speed is "right", it should take reasonable long time before even veterans can access and utilize these new features.
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I wonder what is the point to introduce late-game features, such as Alien cores, plasma collectors, plasma material, and all those new high tier elements.
While at the same time planning to reset game back to start.
If, after reset. player progression speed is "right", it should take reasonable long time before even veterans can access and utilize these new features.
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If schemas go away I'm in favor of full wipe.
Please revert also Territory taxes to old system => No territory tax but old system with Increasing fee for extra territories.
If territories with mining units need upkeep make MUs to consume Nitron.
- decom70, Doltair, SpaceKirito and 1 other
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One note about Market is pace:
Easy access with space only hauler may not be enough to attract.
TAX free, may help it that.
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I am worried if this is "the last patch before launch". Or do we get final feature update at launch?
There are essential parts of the game still missing:
- RDMS is totally missing the D = Duties part
- Energy is not implemented
- Player markets are missing
- Only one star-system
- Star gates+probes to find other systems and build star gate networks
All these are "Big Game changers" and may create problems if introduced after launch.
Edit: And all missing pvp features
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Dev Diary: Player-driven economy
QuoteDev Diary: Player-driven economy
NovaquarkCreator
September 27, 2016
Dear Backers,
We are going to release a series of written dev diaries in which we will discuss the game mechanics. We start today with the topic of the player-driven in-game economy. There is already a devblog post talking about the market economy and how price equilibrium will be achieved in the game, so we recommend that you start there. If you have not done so, go take a look at it!NB: As a word of caution, this devblog was started more than two years ago. Some of the ideas depicted in it might have evolved slightly, so take it with a grain of salt! Also, what is described below might evolve and change a lot during the game development process for various reasons, as we are still far from the official release.
Now on more specific questions:
Is there a way to conduct basic bartering in the game?
Yes, it will be possible to simply barter with a nearby player in order to reach an agreement on a list of assets + money on both sides of a barter window. Upon official release, this will work like a classic “exchange window” as in all other MMORPGs; if you simply want to give or trade items to a nearby player, you will be able to do so.
After the official release, we will probably further develop this feature to add new possibilities, such as being able to barter from a distance. If the player to whom you give the item is not nearby, it will stay in your inventory but the ownership will change. This is an important difference from many other games: your inventory will be able to contain items that you don’t necessarily own. You will be able to transport items that belong to somebody else.
How can one create a market?
Markets are built within a construct. It starts with a Market Unit, which is an Element that you can craft or buy, and that you deploy somewhere in the construct. Various levels of Market Units will exist to stage the maximum number of orders it can support. Skills will also be involved to know whether you can operate a market of a given level.
Players will be able to interact directly with the Market Unit, or remotely using Trade Service Units connected to the Market Unit (proxies, basically, to offer several access points). There are also some remote access methods that will be described below.
For the market to host sell orders, or to receive buy orders, it must have containers connected to it. The simplest connection method will be direct contact, but we are still working on other ways to establish a connection between Elements in general. The important thing to understand is that the size of the container(s) will determine the capacity of the market, because everything that is traded on it must be contained inside those containers. This will favor very large structures to host large-scale markets with thousand of items on sale.
Will there be market NPCs?
Yes, to help boost the economy we will introduce market NPCs, or “bots” (we prefer this term because they won’t have a physical presence in the world). Bots will appear as buy or sell orders in the list of player-made orders. The difficulty is to make sure that they stabilize but not disturb the natural market dynamics driven by players, which involves a bit of AI to get it right. Bots will amplify player activities, not replace them. If you set up a market in the middle of nowhere, isolated, don’t expect thousands of bots to come and sell you everything you need! Note: this may be different in alpha, as we will use bots on market to provide you with assets that you cannot yet craft.
In the long run, our hope is that bots will become less necessary, or even completely disappear, as humans take over the whole economy.
How can one access information about available markets?
You can directly interact with a Market Unit or a proxy connected to it, called a Trade Service Unit. This is absolutely necessary when you want to place a sell order, as you have to deposit the asset you want to sell in the market containers (no need to access the containers, the interface will take care of the transfer).
If you simply want to buy, put in a buy order, or check what is available in a market from a remote place, or view all markets in a given radius , you will use an Information Unit (IU). The IU will come as an Element that you can deploy, and which will have a radius of action depending on its level, or as the integrated IU inside your Nanoformer, which has a limited range but is always accessible. NB: The Nanoformer integrated IU should be available at release, but the IU Element might make it in a further expansion.
Information Units will be able to collect all orders on various markets within their range and present you with an aggregated view, which will allow you to find the best price (to be balanced with their effective location, which can be far away). You will be able to place buy orders, or fulfill existing buy orders from them. The exciting thing is that if you own several active Information Units, they can form a network; when two IU zones overlap, they can access each other’s information. We plan to make it possible (in a post-release update for players to rent access to their IU network, creating telecommunication business opportunities all over the galaxy!
What level of customization for markets will be possible?
We want players to be able to make a business out of running a market, so it will be possible to set up fees with a large variety of models: fees based on the number of items traded, their price, their volume, per month, per transaction, etc. The goal is to let market owners compete with different models and different specializations.
How can one sell something on a market?
To sell something on a market, you have to physically transport that thing to the market, and then interact with the Market Unit or a Trade Service Unit connected to it. This will open your inventory and you will be able to transfer the items for selling, either immediately (if there is at least one buy order pending), or through a sell order with a price of your choosing. In any case, the item will then disappear from your inventory and go inside the containers of the market.
How can one buy something from a market?
You can either put [in] a buy order or get the best offer among the sell orders for an instant service. Whether it will be possible to do this from a distance will depend on your skill level. Once the order is completed, you can check what is in the market containers, but you will only see the items that are yours (for example, items that you just bought). From there, you can drag & drop them to your own inventory and go.
In the long term, we may have short-distance proxy units connected to your own containers that will be able to transfer bought items directly onboard your ship if it is not far away from the market, in order to avoid tedious back and forth logistics. Think about refuelling your ship, for example. This is still in discussion and won’t make it to the initial release in any case.
How can one sell ships?
Every Market Unit is surrounded by a visible bubble whose size depends on the market level. This bubble is called a "trade zone." Trade zones cannot overlap. For any construct inside the trade zone, it is possible to interact with the Core Unit to request a sell order that will be affiliated to the Market Unit in the trade zone, and the usual Nanoformer integrated Information Unit UI opens to set the price. When the sell order is validated, the construct then enters a frozen mode: it cannot be moved or interacted with in any way. Buying a construct from a market simply unfreezes the construct in the trade zone. The player can then simply go and retrieve it.
We have plans in a future expansion to introduce Hangars, which will be large areas that automate the process of parking ships and constructs, in order to avoid the difficulties of avoiding obstacles when moving in/out of crowded areas.
How can one set up an auction?
An auction is basically defined as soon as the order book will only one sell order (that defines the “instant selling price”) and a set of competing buy orders. Once the time for the auction is met, the best buy order wins the competition and gets the item.
That’s it, we hope this answered some of your questions and gave more details about this very important gameplay aspect. Looking forward to hearing your feedback and questions, as usual!
The Novaquark Team -
4 minutes ago, Distinct Mint said:
What NPC's are you talking about? There are none.
All markets are atm. NPC markets.
Player run market is one with market unit owned by player or org.
There owner can set up fees such as taxes and other. Owner also keeps that income.
Also owner decides who can access markets. etc.
Plauer run market are part of the original game consept.
At current NPC market "owned by aphelia" NQ is setting taxes and fees, etc.
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Space market is good addition how ever not as NPC marketplace.
@NQ: Now you have a change to finally introduce player-run markets and take first steps to real player run economy.
Other note:
50KM no-build zone is way too small. It must also include deploying dynamic constructs.
Also it must have quite short "parking permit"
Otherwise it is no use to approach with heavy hauler.
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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:
Well, you forget that from the KS, there will be 30.000+ DACs incoming into the economy.
It would be curious to know how much quanta a single DAC will be worth, 400-500 million quanta per DAC? I didn't back the KS, so I won't be getting any DAC initially. I also expect that just buying a years subscription will be more efficient...
I did not forget those. They are just part of the picture.
That situation is temporary and it is only some of those DAC which come for sale at markets. Even those DACs were paid with real money as a bonus for KS pledge.
I did pledge at kick starter. So I have 20 DACs / 20 months of playtime already paid.
But why I would sell them to gain Quanta? If I do so, lets say I sell all of them after launch. Then I need to buy new DACs right away.
Why I would sell DAC:s to get quanta?
If there is wery interesting ships or bases as token or BP for sale I may sell some of my DACs
After wipe there is none.
Selling kick-starter DACs to get quanta is zero sum situation.
If there will be no wipe, there will be players with lots of quanta willing to buy DAC:s
There will be also lots of interesting stuff to buy if you have Qs
Also there will be new players with almost no quanta. But wanna buy that interesting stuff.
What they do:
They buy extra DACs to be able to sell them at in-game markets to get quanta and to be able to buy interesting stuff earlier.
Now winner is NQ as DACs are sold more.
Game will survive only if there is lots of interesting content at launch. Wipe takes all content away and will kill the game.
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17 minutes ago, Nosomu said:
I hope NQ doesn’t wipe then I can use all my quanta to buy DACs and play for free for months or years even if that hurts their bottom line
If you have lots of quanta to buy DAC:s it will help NQs economy.
Because someone needs to buy those DAC:s first from NQ using real money.
Only after someone has bought DAC:s from NQ with real money and imported those into game markets you can buy them using Quanta.
- Atmosph3rik, Zarcata and GraXXoR
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28 minutes ago, Shredder said:
There’s an estimated 4K current subscribers, and DU need an estimated 50k - 100k to be viable. If NQ prioritise current players over new ones in any way, THEN they wouldn’t know what they’re doing.
New starters arnt going to care what NQ did during beta, release is when a promise of a ‘persistent world’ is deemed to truly start. Anything before then is fair game and the viability of the company is all anyone should care about.Source?
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1 hour ago, CyberDay said:
There are plenty of tiles with tons of resources on them all over. If I wanted to get more of anything, I'm 99% sure I could find a ton of good/decent tiles for them. Autominers make ore trivial and saying there is some kind of scarcity to any of it is just a lie. That and Asteroids can provide you 100% of anything you might need. Wiping is bad faith on those who stayed and played, those who paid, with no indication on the purchase page there would/could be a wipe, and will likely end up removing more people than they will end up back with. The game doesn't really have any good press to begin with, and as I have said many times, there isnt a huge crowd lined up ready for "release". The game has been out for awhile as soon as they started taking direct subs and not "founders early access".
I agree.
Any reason for a wipe will be bad and sends a messaged "we at NQ did not know what we were doing".
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