vylqun

then you didnt really understand the context of the last few posts, it was related to blazemongers suggestion about killrights.

You can discuss everything in the internet as long as you stay with facts and don't get offended if someone has a different opinion. Having to moderate discussions about any topic, as controversial as it might be, shows only that either the community members are unable to control their emotions and have a proper argument or that the moderators suffer from the "I'm offended because others might regard the topic as offensive"-syndrome. No topic by itself is offensive!
 
If you want to test if a community is able to have proper arguments just ask them to list some positive points about something they most likely hate, be it a different religion, the third reich, genocide, communism or whatever. If they can give several positive arguments despite being absolutely against it then you can proper discussions about most topics. If you get answers like "nothing is good about that" or "you can't talk about that" then you're in presence of people who are unable to be reasonable and you should probably try not to be to engaged in that community.

We really should have an account system that mimics the game. You have a Master Account that you log into, and then you can post as each Character or as the Player. 

maybe, but there still is a chance, and dedicated headhunters can camp their bases to wait till they leave or try to construct stuff. Otherwise its absolutely impossible to do anything to them as long as they are in those zones. turtling in a base or just being restricted to the arkship and sanctuary moons is a big difference.

It appears to me that DU is exactly a fantasy land where you can build air castles

that sounds so desperate...

I thought the point of having a forum pre launch is for people to speculate, discuss ideas and getting to know each other.

the core of DU is do whatever you want, you have to deal with the consequences yourself tho. Its like a good old rts, if you expand to much without any defense you'll suffer. In the end DU is a game without any rights and rules, thus you can't really forbid people to kill and rob. But with mechanics like bounties and similar you might make them reluctant to do so. But that will depend on the "peaceful" part of the community, how much they'll try to secure their selfproclaimed rights.

we do, some are cloaked as tv sattelites while in reality they are and send just garbage^^

I love those assumptions taken out of thin assir.
1. Cloaking means you can't be detected. It doesn't have to mean "visually invisible". It may mean "designed in a way that greatly reduce radar/heat/magnetic/mass signature". It's probably much easier to detect objects that way in space. And visual invisibility is bad for most pvp games that implemented it.
2. IMO being undetectable would be better as mostly passive action - not moving (too fast), not firing, not actively detecting, ect. Rather than active "turn cloak device on".
3. Ship designed to be stealthy would use much smaller part of it's mass/volume on firepower/armour/speed. And could be (as any other ship) built in a way where you have more elements that use energy than those that produce it - thus being forced to choose which system to power up.

i can just repeat myself again and again, no magic tricks in a hard sci fi game !
CLoaking means technology (shape, surface, fields etc.) that reduces the signal close to backgroundnoise level, they don't get automatically disabled when someone attacks. What could happen is that a scanner on the other ship picks up the direction of the attack and thus look for minimal signals and lock on in this way, that would require another module again tho.
Also cloaking doesnt magically disable upon being attacked, only when the module/structure was destroyed.
 
i hope we see heat sinks, anti radar plating, mass cloaking fields etc. but please, don't suggest those fantasy mmorpg mechanics that are highly illogical. (and especially nothing like a 50/50 chance, any random chance mechanic just destroys good pvp)

sounds slightly sarcastic  
 
to be a little more exact with what i wanted to say, i don't talk about giving some random attribute like strength, perception etc. but reasonable attributes for those pieces.
Helmets can have different light sensitivity, special visions (nightvision, infrared, internal close range ore sensors etc.). Chest pieces can have different ranges of energy production which defines the total amount of energy your armor can use or they can have additional inventory slots. Boots can give movement speed, jump heigth, noise while walking, there are many reasonable attributes that parts of the space suit can have which help different play styles.

You can discuss everything in the internet as long as you stay with facts and don't get offended if someone has a different opinion. Having to moderate discussions about any topic, as controversial as it might be, shows only that either the community members are unable to control their emotions and have a proper argument or that the moderators suffer from the "I'm offended because others might regard the topic as offensive"-syndrome. No topic by itself is offensive!
 
If you want to test if a community is able to have proper arguments just ask them to list some positive points about something they most likely hate, be it a different religion, the third reich, genocide, communism or whatever. If they can give several positive arguments despite being absolutely against it then you can proper discussions about most topics. If you get answers like "nothing is good about that" or "you can't talk about that" then you're in presence of people who are unable to be reasonable and you should probably try not to be to engaged in that community.

You can discuss everything in the internet as long as you stay with facts and don't get offended if someone has a different opinion. Having to moderate discussions about any topic, as controversial as it might be, shows only that either the community members are unable to control their emotions and have a proper argument or that the moderators suffer from the "I'm offended because others might regard the topic as offensive"-syndrome. No topic by itself is offensive!
 
If you want to test if a community is able to have proper arguments just ask them to list some positive points about something they most likely hate, be it a different religion, the third reich, genocide, communism or whatever. If they can give several positive arguments despite being absolutely against it then you can proper discussions about most topics. If you get answers like "nothing is good about that" or "you can't talk about that" then you're in presence of people who are unable to be reasonable and you should probably try not to be to engaged in that community.

You are turning your post away from DU Ports, and toward Win vs Linux debate.  There are plenty of places that debate can be made, but this game forum probably isn't the best place.

In the end, if people invest a large amount of work and wealth into detection components they really should detect every ship that comes close, but i'd imagine that all the necessary components will be quite big/heavy/power hungry so you would need a dedicated "radar-ship" if you want foolproof detection.

you can add endless grind thats obly inportant to the player himself to the game, but its definitely impossible to add long time, grindy, jobs like those to the game if other players depend on them. 
Boring work is only feasable if you cant live without it, this sense of urgency is impossible in a game. And i dont talk about the few instances of hardcore rp here.

sensors and jammers can also have different tech Levels, so just because a fleet includes every possible sensor it doesnt mean they'll detect everyone.

I'm all in for stealth.....but not in the way eve does it (cause that's just bad)
 
DU could do WAY better in this regard by simply adding a little more stuff (will rewrite the stuff I talked with beloved twerkmotor about)
- do different type of radar/sensor: gravimetric (mass), lidar (light), magnetometric (magnetic fields), radar (cross section), thermal (heat, obviously)
 
each sensor goes for a different attribute of the ship. We've already seen in videos that DU uses a crosssection in the build widget.
 
Smaller crosssection -> radar can't detect you that easily.
Small and light ship -> gravimetric sensors don't catch you well
Dark/light absorbing voxels -> lidar can't detect you well
few elements used (turrets, engines, certain voxels...) -> magnetometric doesn't pick you up
Coat ship in thermal-resistant voxels -> thermal sensors won't be good
 
all of that can be balanced by simply putting different attributes on voxels and elements: you can build an extremely dark ship to evade lidar, but that increases your mass. Use anti-magnetometric voxels ....but increase the heat.
Balance it so, that you can't build a ship which is undetectable - but may be very, very hard to detect. That has to be an extremely small and expensive ship for maybe 1-5 ppl - to allow black ops kind of tactics.
imho this can be added easily as it only adds some more numbers which then can be calculated just like the rest of the pvp system (chances).
 
Such a system would be way more engaging and emergent as the builder would have to pay attention to what he wants to build - and ppl have to think about different ways of defending their base.
You may be able to build a battleship which can't be detected by lidar - but it's cross section is a moon. Works pretty well against an outpost which only has a thermal sensor.....
But radar would be the most basic sensor - because it detects a simple crosssection - and therefor be the cheapest....
 
You see, this system would be easily balanceable and it would add way more emergent gameplay for everyone (shipbuilders, basebuilders, pilots, tacticians, miners, producers,...) than just having a full invisibility cloak element like in eve - which is basically an I win button. Plus it can be implemented very well with the existing idea of pvp-mechanics
 
 
 
 

To have a somewhat imersive experience in Dual Universe we definitely need to see cities. But why exactly would people create cities in DU if just use a vast amount of resources without any real benefit except for showing off?
 
Normally city planning depends on  a lot of different factors, like the environment, available resources, especially food, the condition of the ground, expected industries etc. Those are mostly things that wont work in DU. On the other hand, building cities in DU has quite a lot of disadvantages, like being target for raiders, warmongers or just griefplayers. So without any real benefit or need to create cities we will at most have very few large organization building and maintaining a city as HQ and maybe one or two trading hubs. Mostly we'll see well hidden factories and bases which are statistically placed across the planets with nearly no clustering.
 
There are two possible ways to facilitate cities. One is giving artificial benefits like production bonus or similar things, i wont advocate that as it is unrealistic and just shows a lack of creativity in the game design. The second way is giving realistic incentives. The only incentives that work on larger scales in a mmorpg are economic or security benefits or needs. Social or educational facilities can be mostly ignored (there could be University-Type elements that increase the speed of accumulating xp for the first 20% or something of the skilltree, with which organizations can cater to new players, but that wont be a real incentive for creating a city).
 
In my mind there are three mechanics which would directly create the need for clustering buildings on a small area:
 
1. Powergrid
The first suggestion is, that all functional elements (Doors, electronics etc.) require electricity. Standard, small sized elements would need a marginal amount of power so, that a small generator that can easily be installed in every ship/building is sufficient to support them. More advanced facilities like factories, Elements with strong supporting effects (something like the University for example, or greenhouses), military elements (planetary turrets, shields, sensor units ...) however should have an exponential increase of the power required. Factory units for example should require enough power, that no stacking of small generators can support them.
To support those power hungry elements players can build power plant elements which are extremely large on scale, like 64³m³. They would support buildings within a certain radius with a set amount of power and to increase that radius you could create power-relay stations. What does this do for city building? If players want to run a factory or other facilities they need to create a power plant. If a single power plant generates enough electricity to support several factories, then the economic way of action would be creating enough factories within the vicinity of a power plant to  effectively use the generated power. A large cluster of factories in turn needs military protection as it is a nice target for raiders, thus we have some kind of city growth. At the same time owners of those power plants could rent space in the effective radius for players which can afford to create a factory, but not the required power plant.
 
This can be extended to every kind of large scale element which would be nice to have in a city, for example if we want a space port in the city. The simplest way would be to just create some flat areas for ships to land on. But what about quality of life services like refuelling or rearing constructs? Those actions can take ages. If we had large scale elements like a repair Dock, which repairs damaged ships in the vicinity if activated or refuelling stations, those can save a lot of time to players. Elements like that would also require a lot of power, thus the need for a power plant in the vicinity.
 
In short, if every advanced element has a big size and a large power requirement, coupled with the need of power plants, we would by default see clusters of buildings which can be called cities.
 
2. Resources
We can see in some videos how the ground is removed with a tool, its fast, efficient and effortless. if we can mine resources in this way, then DU players will be like a big locust swarm, run across the surface of a planet, scanning and within hours mining all interesting resources. But a big influence on city-building is the need to create a permanent structure in specific places, thus mining resources should definitely not be near-instant. Optimally mining out a big underground ore vein should take years if done by hand or several months when done with elements for mining. If we have long term mining then locations get a certain economic and strategic importance. If an organization finds a large vein of a rare metal it can't just mine it and go away, it has to defend this place against other players. Thus they need to create defensive structures, which again need power plants. If you have defensive structures and power plants on a mining base and some power surplus due to it then its economic to just continue and create the needed refinery elements etc. too, which in turn leads to clusters of buildings again.
 
3. Dependencies
Similar as all functional elements require electricity there can be other dependencies which make it necessary to create several constructs at the same place. In the new content update we learn about market Bots, where resources can be sold for quanta and elements can be bought (probably very limited after crafting is implemented, but maybe some of the most basic elements can still be bought). Those Quanta and elements aren't created from void and the sold resources can't spontaneously vanish. So if someone wants to place market bots in his base, it would make sense to require a trading hub element in the vicinity. There are quite some heavy industries which are dependent on water as coolant, so some refinery elements could actually need water purification plants in the area, the same plants could be used to support greenhouses or other buildings with water. If several buildings depend on each other there is a huge potential to incline people to gather together and create cities. Especially as everyone has a limited amount of cores available.
 
########
 
I really think that those three points are absolutely necessary for a good experience in DU and will lead to some pretty interesting results.

thats exactly what i wouldnt want to see in DU, because is basically magic, not really scientific.

Yeah, that's the usual response: "The game must be very "realistic", except it mustn't have the boring parts of RL that make up 90% of our daily lives"
 
Cities in RL exist for reasons that cannot be duplicated in an MMO. In RL, people live in cities because it's the most likely place to find work (within a reasonable travel distance) and/or a mate. Neither of those needs exist in an MMO. The need to socialise in an MMO is easily met by a voice chat channel, there's no need for physical proximity to other players. Global chat takes the place of going to a bar and chatting to strangers.
 
In RL, industry clusters around cities mainly because it's the best way to gain access to a big pool of labour, and because there's some economic benefit in being closer to the dozens of other industries that supply them with things they need. None of those reasons apply in MMO's.
 
That's why MMO's have to provide specific (usually artificial) incentives to encourage players to concentrate together in the game world. Players are usually highly mobile, and they're playing because they want fun action, not because they want to RP an office cleaner on nightshift.
 
In MMO's, players don't need to commute to work every day, or sleep 6 hours every night, or worry about freezing to death if they can't pay the heating bills in winter. In MMO's, players don't go home every night and watch some TV after a hard days questing... 
 
In MMO's, cities are mostly the equivalent of RL shopping malls, players go there briefly when they need to buy stuff. Then they leave.
 

To have a somewhat imersive experience in Dual Universe we definitely need to see cities. But why exactly would people create cities in DU if just use a vast amount of resources without any real benefit except for showing off?
 
Normally city planning depends on  a lot of different factors, like the environment, available resources, especially food, the condition of the ground, expected industries etc. Those are mostly things that wont work in DU. On the other hand, building cities in DU has quite a lot of disadvantages, like being target for raiders, warmongers or just griefplayers. So without any real benefit or need to create cities we will at most have very few large organization building and maintaining a city as HQ and maybe one or two trading hubs. Mostly we'll see well hidden factories and bases which are statistically placed across the planets with nearly no clustering.
 
There are two possible ways to facilitate cities. One is giving artificial benefits like production bonus or similar things, i wont advocate that as it is unrealistic and just shows a lack of creativity in the game design. The second way is giving realistic incentives. The only incentives that work on larger scales in a mmorpg are economic or security benefits or needs. Social or educational facilities can be mostly ignored (there could be University-Type elements that increase the speed of accumulating xp for the first 20% or something of the skilltree, with which organizations can cater to new players, but that wont be a real incentive for creating a city).
 
In my mind there are three mechanics which would directly create the need for clustering buildings on a small area:
 
1. Powergrid
The first suggestion is, that all functional elements (Doors, electronics etc.) require electricity. Standard, small sized elements would need a marginal amount of power so, that a small generator that can easily be installed in every ship/building is sufficient to support them. More advanced facilities like factories, Elements with strong supporting effects (something like the University for example, or greenhouses), military elements (planetary turrets, shields, sensor units ...) however should have an exponential increase of the power required. Factory units for example should require enough power, that no stacking of small generators can support them.
To support those power hungry elements players can build power plant elements which are extremely large on scale, like 64³m³. They would support buildings within a certain radius with a set amount of power and to increase that radius you could create power-relay stations. What does this do for city building? If players want to run a factory or other facilities they need to create a power plant. If a single power plant generates enough electricity to support several factories, then the economic way of action would be creating enough factories within the vicinity of a power plant to  effectively use the generated power. A large cluster of factories in turn needs military protection as it is a nice target for raiders, thus we have some kind of city growth. At the same time owners of those power plants could rent space in the effective radius for players which can afford to create a factory, but not the required power plant.
 
This can be extended to every kind of large scale element which would be nice to have in a city, for example if we want a space port in the city. The simplest way would be to just create some flat areas for ships to land on. But what about quality of life services like refuelling or rearing constructs? Those actions can take ages. If we had large scale elements like a repair Dock, which repairs damaged ships in the vicinity if activated or refuelling stations, those can save a lot of time to players. Elements like that would also require a lot of power, thus the need for a power plant in the vicinity.
 
In short, if every advanced element has a big size and a large power requirement, coupled with the need of power plants, we would by default see clusters of buildings which can be called cities.
 
2. Resources
We can see in some videos how the ground is removed with a tool, its fast, efficient and effortless. if we can mine resources in this way, then DU players will be like a big locust swarm, run across the surface of a planet, scanning and within hours mining all interesting resources. But a big influence on city-building is the need to create a permanent structure in specific places, thus mining resources should definitely not be near-instant. Optimally mining out a big underground ore vein should take years if done by hand or several months when done with elements for mining. If we have long term mining then locations get a certain economic and strategic importance. If an organization finds a large vein of a rare metal it can't just mine it and go away, it has to defend this place against other players. Thus they need to create defensive structures, which again need power plants. If you have defensive structures and power plants on a mining base and some power surplus due to it then its economic to just continue and create the needed refinery elements etc. too, which in turn leads to clusters of buildings again.
 
3. Dependencies
Similar as all functional elements require electricity there can be other dependencies which make it necessary to create several constructs at the same place. In the new content update we learn about market Bots, where resources can be sold for quanta and elements can be bought (probably very limited after crafting is implemented, but maybe some of the most basic elements can still be bought). Those Quanta and elements aren't created from void and the sold resources can't spontaneously vanish. So if someone wants to place market bots in his base, it would make sense to require a trading hub element in the vicinity. There are quite some heavy industries which are dependent on water as coolant, so some refinery elements could actually need water purification plants in the area, the same plants could be used to support greenhouses or other buildings with water. If several buildings depend on each other there is a huge potential to incline people to gather together and create cities. Especially as everyone has a limited amount of cores available.
 
########
 
I really think that those three points are absolutely necessary for a good experience in DU and will lead to some pretty interesting results.

I'm sorry to necro this thread, but just for the sake of ppl who read this topic and Eternals explanation about lasers, literally everything he wrote concerning Lasers is wrong, so please don't remember or even distribute it.

Eve has probably the most successful community in an mmo to date. What are you taking about? 
 
 In eve there is an unprecedented amount of player cooperation to achieve group goals.  nothing in eve is made by just one person, it is a collaboration of players against other players.
 
What you call griefing is people going about thier business, thier business might be to attack your ship.