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Jenshae

Linux crowdfund please

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2 hours ago, Jenshae said:

Making it more simple, what if they just added two more packages, Linux and Mac?
Again, they would have hard measurable figures and no need to do the two lower packs unless it exploded. We get it, less of us, pay a higher premium. :P

 

 

Dear developers,

 

Short version, please make a Linux crowd fund so that we can put our money where our mouths are. 

 

  • Top aim would be a native client.
  • Secondly, approaching Feral to help port the game.
  • Third being a supported Wine wrapper.
  • Finally, the lowest rung, some cornered off time that a developer writes guides or answers some questions that we can try get it running on Wine or in a virtual machine. 

 

It has been two years since I played EVE. When they sold skill points, that was a goal post moved that I could not accept but this game seems to hold a possibility of not only filling that hole in my mind but scratching an itch that I didn't think was there.

 

What I can find about it from you looks positive.

 

 

I can not promise that it is all sunshine but if you can become platform independent, surely:

Windows + Mac + Linux > Windows only revenues.


Vulkan has opened up a huge path for making platform independent games.


Many Linux gamers are counted in statistics as Windows players because we resort to virtual machines and Wine.

 

Statistically, we also spend more given the opportunity on our hobbies and passions.

 

Linux statistics can be surprising.

 

Personally, using myself as an example, I am on the following machine:

 

Intel Core i7-5820K (6 cores, 12 threads) @ 4.1GHz
Mobo: ASUSTeK model: X99-E
Memory: 16201.8/64335.1MB
Graphics card: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] Hawaii PRO [Radeon R9 390]

(I won't be buying MSI aka Micro Sun International again, the build quality does not impress me).
GLX & Vulkan Version: 3.0 Mesa 17.2.8
HDD Total Size: 2000.4GB (12.7% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: MZV6E500BW size: 500.1GB
           ID-2: /dev/sdb model: ST500LX025 size: 500.1GB
           ID-3: /dev/sdc model: ST500LX025 size: 500.1GB
           ID-4: /dev/sdd model: ST500LX025 size: 500.1GB

(That is an M.2 for boot and some games + 3x SSHDs in ZFS RAID 5 for bulk storage.)

My Steam account is also rather healthy.

 

We bought into a vague promise from Star Citizen and we are still waiting.

 

The key to this request is that you can see the direct contribution that Linux players make and adjust what you do for them accordingly.

 

Thank you,

 

Jen

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If the Linux community can make DU run while maintaining performance then great, good for those who choose to go that route. NQ should IMO stay far away from Linux as it is really not worthwhile for them to pursue and no, the Linux community would not be able to fund this (and NQ probably would not let them either), not even close. 

 

I think you vastly underestimate the cost of what you are asking. 

I think you overestimate the marketshare for linux users gaming on Wine.

It would not be needed to go Vulkan though as the existing engine support openGL/Linux just fine.

Valve tried to push Linux as a gaming platform, it's just not going to work.

 

NQ has been very clear DU is Windows only with no plans to support other platforms and seeing how minute these other platforms are as far as user base goes (and probably even smaller where gaming is concerned) that is the right call.

 

Since you linked it and this brought it up;

The linked post of 'linux statistics' is an interesting read, especially how the author tries to spin number to make it appear they indicate that Linux and Mac user are more likely to buy/play games and how he eventually comes to a 50-25-25 pie chart (for a fairly low number of sales on Humble indie bundles where many people just buy it for very little because they can) is an amazing example of data manipulation and clever placement of unrelated and meaningless pie charts where the desired outcome determines the way the path to it is set up and 'explained'. The article is in fact an infomercial from a game developer leading into the announcement of their next release. Clever but obviously not objective nor truthful as it is quite possibly a paid for piece. As this is published on Kotaku that's not really surprising though.

 

 

While I personally fail to see the point in putting this much effort into getting games to run while all you need to do is install/dual boot Windows is just silly, if the Linux community is up for it and make this happen then good for you. A simple one time investment in a copy of Windows would be cheaper, more effective and way easier than having to fund a port and guess what, your next desired game is all ready to go once you have this set up.

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Funding ports now helps build up Linux for the future.

 

I would rather not have Windows on my machine in any form. Currently, I run it as an application (VM) for a very few games. That is Win7. I won't be running Win 8 or anything newer. I don't agree with the business direction of M$ nor the constant series of vulnerabilities in Windows.

 

When it comes down to it, the most advanced IT users go for Linux because they know it is better.

 

The only place Windows is holding strong for now is on desktops (and Xboxes obviously). This is because:

  • ignorant users don't like change
  • Vicious circle of DirectX games, players buying them, developers getting stuck on them because of tools and so forth.
  • Another circle of users feeling dependant on Windows applications, like Office, Skype and such then development going into that.

Munich are dropping Linux, reasons being things like not being able to run Skype ... but there is a native client for it. That basic wilful ignorance will take a slow grind to change in the masses.

 

Quote

Desktop Linux mainly has caught on in technically savvy companies and organizations, such as Google, NASA, the U.S. DoD and CERN, King observed, citing a recent report showing the countries currently using custom Linux distros.

... and yet, Barcelona is going to go with Linux

The ultimate weakness of Windows, which will be its eventual downfall is that they don't patch out all of their vulnerabilities. They leave it to third parties, anti-virus companies and such to try and band aid fix things. 

... and if you are relying on well known commercial / business anti-virus or anti-malware companies to protect you then you might be in for a nasty shock.
 

Quote

His findings with Sophos' products led him to write a 30-page paper entitled "Sophail: Applied attacks against Sophos Antivirus" in 2012, which concludes that the company was "working with good intentions" but is "ill-equipped to handle the output of one co-operative security researcher working in his spare time" and that its products shouldn't be used on high-value systems.

Vulkan is better than OpenGL and is at least on par if not better than DirectX.

 

Vulkan is also being supported by both Nvidia and AMD.

 

https://developer.nvidia.com/Vulkan
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/02/vulkan-gets-official-with-1-0-release-and-amd-driver/

Historically, DirectX was doing work arounds for Nvidia that caused faults and tearing with AMD, who were blameless.

This created the Nvidia + DirectX and AMD + OpenGL divide.

Now that both of the giants are throwing their support behind Vulkan?

The writing is on the walls. 
It will take over the majority of PCs if not in this human generation, in the next or at the latest the one after that.


(I will tell you something, in the 90s, I tried Linux, Gnome and Knoppix, I didn't understand the hype.
I hated it, didn't understand it and couldn't get why people would want it. After Vista came out, I hung onto my WinXP machine for as long as possible then resolved to try Linux again. Not because I wanted Linux but because I was so determined to get away from Micro$h***. I completely understand the average user's mental block about it. I get why Linux has a reputation of being difficult to use. The leaps and bounds it has made to be user friendly are utterly staggering! 60% of my office are now on Linux, converted PCs that failed as Windows, were old 32 bits ones or are new Linux iGels. I also put the old people that live around me on Linux and Chrome. One of them installed Opera via command line without any help or prompting from myself in their first week of using it! (They didn't need to do it that way, there is an easy to find package that simply installs and updates automatically) They are happy and I am happy. They get updates, stability and easy to browse a free application library, while I don't have the headache of removing their viruses or trying to fix their corrupted / broken operating systems with formats and re-installs.)

Linux simply works.

 

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While that argument is incredibly compelling, i feel windows just has the user base to survive. So many people grew up knowing how windows work, and it all comes down to that. Yes, they may be classed as ignorant, but windows is just built into the infrastructure at this point. I do completely agree with that it might fall apart. Also i believe windows is so popular due to how easy it is to use. I do think DUAL universe should definitely go onto the other platforms though. this game should be avalible to everyone, in my opinion  the more players the better. ;)

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25 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

It will take over the majority of PCs if not in this human generation, in the next or at the latest the one after that.

While i would like it to for many reasons, its just not going to for one reason. That reason? People are stupid. The vast majority of consumers want easy to lean guis, not cmd line, as even though cmd line offers many advantages, they wouldn't be able to use it. Its for this reason that linux is mostly used for stuff like servers, supercomputers etc instead of everyday consumer goods. As for DU on linux, NQ are focusing on making the game work and be fun right now, not spending a ton of time and resources that they are limited on to port it to linux. It may happen at some point in the future, but not now at all, especially as they said windows only.

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1 minute ago, Evil_Porcupine said:

The vast majority of consumers want easy to lean guis, not cmd line, 

For most things, there are now packages, like .deb that configure themselves, just like Windows programs.

When they hit a point of needing a CMD line, that is usually beyond the point that they need IT support on Windows.

9 minutes ago, Anotaros said:

While that argument is incredibly compelling, i feel windows just has the user base to survive. So many people grew up knowing how windows work, and it all comes down to that. Yes, they may be classed as ignorant, but windows is just built into the infrastructure at this point. I do completely agree with that it might fall apart. Also i believe windows is so popular due to how easy it is to use. I do think DUAL universe should definitely go onto the other platforms though. this game should be avalible to everyone, in my opinion  the more players the better. ;)

 

Linux can be so easy to use, install it. Done.
(It updates while installing)


Windows, install it then get drivers, then download more driver updates then get updates 20 at a time because it chokes otherwise, have a nightmare with CD keys, etc.

On a day to day basis, I tease the two Windows die-hards on my floor every time I see them frustrated, "Please wait ..." while they get more updates, install and configure them. Linux? It downloads, installs without annoying you, at your convenience and then you restart without waiting during shutdown or boot up.
I convinced one accountant to go with a QEMU virtual machine of Windows (to run Sage - bleh) on one screen and then they can use the machine to do web business or load up a terminal server / remote session while waiting for Windows to muck about. They are now happy and that is how much they hate Windows updates, it was enough to get them to try Linux.

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DU is able to be run under WINE already.

 

Im not too worried about a Linux port provided DU runs good under WINE  ;)

 

A linux port would be great, but I think NQ has enough on its plate atm as it is Note: They do run Linux internally - what do you think their game engine for the servers run on, hint, its NOT windows ;)

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Early development is a good time to start laying the foundations for platform independence. 
Before you have a mass of players screaming for new content all the time and you have a massive pile of spaghetti code to wade through.

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@blazemonger:  I know you love to support Windows, thats fine, and a minority here run and use Linux, which is also fine.

 

NQ/DU is still young, and plans do and will change over time.

 

The true cost of a port to any platform is more the long term support instead of the port itself. A DU port should be relatively easy to do as NQ's development platform can target Windows,  Linux, and a few other platforms. Ports like these are often just a toggle box away as the development engine handles all the messy platform specific work in the background.

 

NQ has even admitted that several of their developers use Linux to develop DU.

 

So even though NQ may not, at this early stage, support Linux they could fairly easily do so in the future.

 

Until then it runs in Linux using the WINE API. So prepare for the Linux users in DU, Im sure there will be more than the low percentages indicate as there are geek's are more likely to run Linux, and Im sure DU will attract many geeks :)

 

 

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I know all this and as said, if the Linux Community can make the game work at a reasonable performance level then great.

 

NQ has made it very clear there are no plans to support Linux directly and sure, this may change in the future once the game is released, has matured somewhat and the resources can be freed up to do so.

 

Asking for NQ to set up a crowdfunding to provide a Linux port is IMO just silly and shows a lack of understanding what that would really entail and cost.

 

I basically put my comments in because frankly I had a good laugh reading the propaganda links that were posted..

 

 

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Here is a link/quote to NQs stance on this topic in case anyone was wondering. It's old, but it's the last time they said anything about it. 

 

 

Quote

"First, we love Linux! Actually, several of our programmers are running Linux on a daily basis as their main programming environment. The game currently runs on Linux every day, on these programmers machine. Now, it does not necessarily mean that we can ship the game on Linux, there are many issues that we need to solve: compatibility of all the third-party libraries we use, selecting a distro, deal with the maintenance efforts that goes with having a code base that runs on clang and visual studio, etc. It is not impossible, we would love to do it, but ultimately it will depend on the market size relative to the costs of maintenance. So, if we can see a strong movement of the community in favor of Linux, it will significantly increase the chance of the game being released on Linux."

 

- Mercutio

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26 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I know all this and as said, if the Linux Community can make the game work at a reasonable performance level then great.

 

NQ has made it very clear there are no plans to support Linux directly and sure, this may change in the future once the game is released, has matured somewhat and the resources can be freed up to do so.

 

Asking for NQ to set up a crowdfunding to provide a Linux port is IMO just silly and shows a lack of understanding what that would really entail and cost.

 

I basically put my comments in because frankly I had a good laugh reading the propaganda links that were posted..

 

 

The best trolling is when you look completely ignorant, even when you try to take the mask off and remain with the same appearance as before?

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1 hour ago, Jenshae said:

Linux can be so easy to use, install it. Done.
(It updates while installing)


Windows, install it then get drivers, then download more driver updates then get updates 20 at a time because it chokes otherwise, have a nightmare with CD keys, etc.

Not going to go into a bash fest as it's not needed but this is really incorrect and hopelessly outdated. I boot from a USB drive and install Windows in one go, no need to enter a license code, no need get extra drivers and available updates are pulled in as we go (i7 7700, 1080ti, USB audio).

 

But to the issue at hand.. and to wrap my comments on this. As long as linux support does not in any way delay or draw resources from main development I should and could not care less. I know the engine supports Linux and I know devs use it so sometime in the future, when the game has been released, sure why not. The reason why I would expect this to wait until then is simple, despite being often loud the installed base as far as consumer desktop based Linux systems is extremely small and on top of that wildly fragmented and diverse in distros and configurations. There is not 'one Linux', there are way more than a handful most of which will require specific and direct support for how they would work with and handle the code.

 

Support for Linux is very costly and time consuming, I would not want to see NQ pull resources to provide an very unbalanced amount of support for a very tiny segment of potential users. Again, if you as a community can make it work then great. If eventually NQ can spend time to support you without compromising main stream Windows support, then fine.

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

1) ... and on top of that wildly fragmented and diverse in distros and configurations. 

2) Support for Linux is very costly and time consuming, .

1) There are only a few core systems. Debian, Slack and Redhat. I think that even the Linux community can agree that if a game will run on Debian or even narrow it down to Ubuntu they can easily work from there. Why? It is what Feral and Steam support. Right tool for the job.
2) Not necessarily. For example, Unity, C++ and Vulkan would be a solid foundation, where you could (ironically) develop it on Linux and then almost simply run it on Windows with minimal tweaks. It is when you develop upon Windows that you get entangled with various Windows only dependencies.
 

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So now you are suggesting NQ should actually develop on Linux and then port to Windows?

 

I'm sorry, but you really have no idea what impact your suggesting has as far as resources and cost on a project like this. I find it 'interesting' that you come in and immediately start (as in with the intent to) evangelizing and advocating Linux. Then, when you encounter  an argument go into the usual 'lace the general and overall uninformed if not incorrect/outdated/debunked arguments with some personal jabs for good measure'.

 

While I understand your eagerness to get support for your choice of desktop OS/platform it is a fact of life that by making your choice you have placed yourself in a very small usergroup. Linux has no viable user base for a relative niche project like this where the development platform and method was decided years ago. Coming in with a call for NQ to provide a crowdfunding to support Linux is at best pretentious. Go HERE and contact the people in the thread on how to work on getting the game running in WINE. There is a few people there who have actual access to the game so they may be able to help/support once you come on board, provided you intend to do so.

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NQ already has some of its devs running Linux as their programing environment.....  so no need to force them to move over.... they are already there.

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It's much easier to start with OS non-specifity in mind to begin with, than it is to port it over.  Even if they have developed the game using OpenGL (which I can't seem to find confirmation from NQ, but who knows)... they still have to port over sound (ALSA vs DirectSound), input (xinput vs direct input).... etc.  There isn't one simple button to port a game over, as others have suggested.  It all depends on NQs current development environment, and whether they have been using system-specific development tools or not.

 

As a primary Linux user, I sincerely hope NQ implements Linux at some point... and I would definitely support a "pledge" page for that goal itself.  It could put a hold on your account for that amount until the crowdfunding reaches past the allotted amount by NQ.  Or something of that nature.

 

Linux is a superior OS hands down for performance and security.  But what many people don't understand is that malicious users cater their attacks to Windows because that's where the marketshare is.  A cyber criminal is looking to make money (for the most part), and if Linux became widely used... I guarantee there will be a larger number of "vulnerabilities" in Linux as well ;).  

 

Of course, being open-source means Linux will always be more secure than Windows.

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41 minutes ago, Hades said:

Of course, being open-source means Linux will always be more secure than Windows.

 

lol

Sorry, that's just too funny. Some of the most harmful general security flaws of the past years, impacting many millions of users originated from 'open source' code.

 

That you want to argue for Linux is fine and if direct support for Linux happened, great for the Linux users out there. But don't drag these nonsense arguments into these conversations. The one thing that triggers me is the seemingly never ending drive from Linux users to start by defending and evangelising their OS and the need for it to be supported.

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47 minutes ago, Hades said:

There isn't one simple button to port a game over, as others have suggested.  It all depends on NQs current development environment, and whether they have been using system-specific development tools or not.

 

 

On several game engines you can target the required  platform with a single option. However if  the game developer uses, external to the game engine, platform specific code, then that requires more work to port the game over.

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13 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

lol

Sorry, that's just too funny. Some of the most harmful general security flaws of the past years, impacting many millions of users originated from 'open source' code.

 

That you want to argue for Linux is fine and if direct support for Linux happened, great for the Linux users out there. But don't drag these nonsense arguments into these conversations. The one thing that triggers me is the seemingly never ending drive from Linux users to start by defending and evangelising their OS and the need for it to be supported.

Are we going to argue chemtrails are a thing too?  Open source is far more secure than closed source.  It's a standard.  Everyone in the security business knows it.

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19 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 I find it 'interesting' that you come in and immediately start (as in with the intent to) evangelizing and advocating Linux.
Coming in with a call for NQ to provide a crowdfunding to support Linux is at best pretentious. Go HERE and contact the people in the thread on how to work on getting the game running in WINE. 

Thank you for the link.

 

My original post is straight forward. If the cost of running a Patreon, Kickstarter or such is so unbelievably high then how come so many individuals manage it?

An official way of managing how much money Linux users give to this project takes away any guessing. It would be hard measurable figures.

5 hours ago, Hades said:

Open source is far more secure than closed source.  It's a standard.  Everyone in the security business knows it.

Open Source is better for security.

 

Why? Well if you don't trust code, you can read through it yourself and compile it yourself.

Other people can look for weaknesses in the code and help you fix them.

MANY more people from all walks of life can contribute, quite a lot of professionals working in some very advanced jobs put in an hour or two here and there to improve projects. That can amount to thousands of hours of professional work, which can swamp the entire effort of Microsoft.

M$ will always be limited by their own company. It goes as far as them and very occasionally do third party solutions make their way into Microsoft's effort.

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22 minutes ago, Jenshae said:

If the cost of running a Patreon, Kickstarter or such is so unbelievably high then how come so many individuals manage it?

Not talking about he cost of the fundraiser, the cost of porting, maintaining and supporting a Linux client would not be covered by the amount of revenue Linux users will bring in, thus it would be a loss and require to be carried/covered by those who do not need it.

 

You can feel however/believe whatever you want about Linux, you can't realistically expect others who have no interest in Linux as a desktop/gaming platform to carry the cost of supporting it for you. And no, some devs using Linux at the workplace does not mean it's easy or 'cheap' to develop an end user Linux client, maintain it and support it.

 

I use Linux every day, it manager and controls just about everything that goes on on my home network except for my router solution. I prefer it over Windows server for its simplicity and yes, it helps it comes free. I use Bash shell as integrated in Windows 10 daily for a number of jobs I need done because it is the best tool for the job. Outside of some scripting and programming jobs I would not consider using Linux for any productivity jobs I do or to play games. 

 

I find it interesting you seem to have signed up to the forum only to (immediately and fairly aggressively) evangelise and advocate a Linux client more than have a genuine interest in the game. The sense you seem to have a built in dislike for Windows which seems based on old, outdated and likely misplaced distrust is amusing to me as is the sense your home situation would be more secure by choosing Linux with a main argument it's open source.

 

 

But this argument is both pointless and irrelevant so let's agree to disagree and move on.

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Regardless of what blazemonger may say, he isnt NQ.

 

This was a proposition to NQ and they are the ones who will say yay or nay to the proposal.

 

The proposal is self funding IF the funding goal is both realistic and actually reached by Linux users.

 

Assuming the above occurs then its no skin off Windows users noses.

 

On a personal note however I would prefer to have DU released on Windows first, have NQ's developers time focused on getting the game out first, then later, if the Linux funding goal reached, port it over.

 

 

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