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The thing is, they want to be building shiny things, but not having any risk in a game advertised for its emergent gameplay. If a guy builds a factory and I have to take the factory out in a small time-frame due to travel-times and that person's timezone faction's limitations, I should not be limited.

 

so you say you explicitly dont want to play fair game by outsmarting them or anything but by abusing their real-life limitations and attack them when they cant fight back?

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so you say you explicitly dont want to play fair game by outsmarting them or anything but by abusing their real-life limitations and attack them when they cant fight back?

It's a tactic to catch someone off-guard. If they only recruit X timezone players, they are risking having particular downtimes.

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It's a tactic to catch someone off-guard. If they only recruit X timezone players, they are risking having particular downtimes.

 

sooooo... its their fault for having a life besides the game?

(or for making a corp with only RL friends, or similar craziness....)

 

sounds like fair game design :P

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I agree, there cannot be game mechanics that punish people for not being online. Nor should it be possible to destroy someone's things without them having the opportunity to do anything about it.

 

But to remove the ability to damage someone's things when they're not online not only ruins the sandbox, but presents potentially game breaking exploit opportunities.

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I agree, there cannot be game mechanics that punish people for not being online. Nor should it be possible to destroy someone's things without them having the opportunity to do anything about it.

 

But to remove the ability to damage someone's things when they're not online not only ruins the sandbox, but presents potentially game breaking exploit opportunities.

 

absolutely, hence why i'd say its hard limited as to how and when you can use that invulnerability to prevent the aforementioned exploits. 

time limits, traversal limits, other drawbacks you have to take for using the system.

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sooooo... its their fault for having a life besides the game?

(or for making a corp with only RL friends, or similar craziness....)

 

sounds like fair game design :P

Well, the Devs said that exiting the safe-zone would be something risky.

 

I rest my case at that. People can wait for you to log in and destroy you when your personal "afk magic bubble" is not there.

 

I guess that would be fair if 50 guys were to blow your shack off the map so they can mine the area around you. -shrug-

 

The game's selling point is congregation in one place. Large cities should be the ones having access to force fields, cause they got resources.

 

If everyone has  magical space field around them for 24 hours, that defuses the point of the game's main social feature. Everyone will build on their own.

 

You find a guy who went offline in a heavily pirated area? Nah, 24 hours magical force field. Seems legit :V

 

Also, EVE had this mechanic, because EVE had to deal with queues of people hopping into a server-system. 

 

What's next? Time Dilation because carebears can't use keybinds and can only click with their mouse? :V

 

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Found some of the unfo on the wiki, and here is how it sounds like it'll work.

 

Territory Units (TU's) are what will allow an organization to claim an area. Once that TU is in place, seems like that org will unilaterally get to decide how that zone will work. Laws, building rights, mining rights, etc. This makes sense from a "we want players to be able to build civilizations" standpoint to prevent random players from walking into your metropolis and turning it into swiss cheese with sphere voxel deletion, or crashing their ship into your base.

 

This also makes it sound as though in a hex with a TU, unauthorized players won't be able to edit terrain at all, so no mining or digging, no greifing whatsoever.

 

But before you pvp folks flip out over this, I don't thing TU's will be safe zones, i bet structures can be attacked and damaged, just not built or edited by outsiders. So you won't be able to walk in and delete the wall to my vault, but i'm willing to bet you could shoot it up and eventually destroy components that can be locked onto. We might see a system like rust where attackers can damage strictures, but it would take a good ammount of time and resources to break through defenses. A seige should take long enough that an all-nighter can't undo enough work to shrek people who have day jobs.

 

Link http://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Territory_Control

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Where to start - I guess IMO - no free kills (you're gonna have to work for it ;) )

 

If we're going to talk about this, we can't limit ourselves to the idea that it's all pure PvP only. DU's setting (whether or not it's reflected IN GAME) literally will have millions of people in it.

 

So Lone Wolf's aside (having been one myself in games - it's the risk you take against reward in PvP)... Let's look at some basic realistic principles - NPC's are a good starting point. In ANY RL environment, you have consequences to an action.

 

If you show up to blat some player's city (or even an org's city) when they are "AFK", reality would point out that PEOPLE LIVE THERE. And they won't just be passive about things. The NPC populace would react - some would fight back, some will run (causing attackers and defenders logistical headaches) etc. Other orgs and NPC's would also move to take advantage - you'll get White Knights joining the defence. You might get other Orgs or NPC's attacking your bases while you're blatting the AFKer.

 

Sieges and attacks on settlements (as opposed to pure raiding - in and out) should take MONTHS. Really. Unless you want to nuke the place from orbit. (It's the only way to be sure after all). They should not be lightly entered in to. They should be expensive endeavors. They need to be planned, you need intel and stuff.

 

IT SHOULD BE HARD, and it SHOULD be rewarding if you succeed.

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I suppose a possible solution is to actually have a major city that is "alive" almost 24/7 - and then perhaps have some other defensive measures. That would be the safest thing you could have compared to some lone base in the middle of nowhere that is only staffed partially during specific hours but 'empty' for the other half of the day or so.

 

This however demands some form of sacrifice or willpower to work / live with others, depending on having your little lone kingdom in some place - you could also have both, of course.

 

Collaborate and profit - or try it on your own. Many ways, many possible scenarios. Possible pros and cons for most of those.

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Thats why there are safezones - park your ship there

Thats why there will be player run lots - park your ship there and pay for security

Thats why there will be Mercs - pay them to protect your ship

Thats why there will be other Stuff like Camo, Stealth, Shields, underground bases, hiding ships in plain sight - be creative how to protect your ship/city

 

With a major settlement there come lots of people living there, from all timezones - they can and will have to defend the city.

 

No need for a magical shield of some sort which protects you in hostile territory. If there would be such a thing I will be abusing that like hell

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Well, the Devs said that exiting the safe-zone would be something risky.

 

I rest my case at that. People can wait for you to log in and destroy you when your personal "afk magic bubble" is not there.

 

I guess that would be fair if 50 guys were to blow your shack off the map so they can mine the area around you. -shrug-

 

The game's selling point is congregation in one place. Large cities should be the ones having access to force fields, cause they got resources.

 

If everyone has  magical space field around them for 24 hours, that defuses the point of the game's main social feature. Everyone will build on their own.

 

You find a guy who went offline in a heavily pirated area? Nah, 24 hours magical force field. Seems legit :V

 

Also, EVE had this mechanic, because EVE had to deal with queues of people hopping into a server-system. 

 

What's next? Time Dilation because carebears can't use keybinds and can only click with their mouse? :V

 

 

 

you just failed the turing test.

 

who said everyone? 

who said that it could work without setup time in a moving object?

 

you could /read/ what other people write for a start.

 

hard limits on where and when the protection is usable at all.

 

setup times, recharge times, whatever.

 

but the point is to level the playing ground between people in different time zones.

being concentrated in a specific region of the real life world shouldnt produce an inherent disadvantage against groups who are localised in other areas.

 

if theres a bunch of eurodudes they shouldnt lose against a bunch of murika dudes just because the US dudes are awake (and can organise /something/) during the euro play time and the US can play when all the euro gamers are asleep.

 

 

and what do reinforcement timers have to do with system transition queues?

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you just failed the turing test.

 

who said everyone? 

who said that it could work without setup time in a moving object?

 

you could /read/ what other people write for a start.

 

hard limits on where and when the protection is usable at all.

 

setup times, recharge times, whatever.

 

but the point is to level the playing ground between people in different time zones.

being concentrated in a specific region of the real life world shouldnt produce an inherent disadvantage against groups who are localised in other areas.

 

if theres a bunch of eurodudes they shouldnt lose against a bunch of murika dudes just because the US dudes are awake (and can organise /something/) during the euro play time and the US can play when all the euro gamers are asleep.

 

 

and what do reinforcement timers have to do with system transition queues?

First, that turing joke is old, you copycat :P

 

Secondly, call me an elitist, but I don't like being pampered. I plan on ultra paranoia and keeping myself safe with manual means. Those manual means, include paying a rent to others who took the time to deply force fields to protect their territory. It's called economy. If everyone has a personal field of protection, there's no need for large cities and the protection they provide.

 

 

Safezones will be plenty, possibly one person system. That's overly enough for carebears to live in.

 

 

I rest my case to that.

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As an aside - this discussion should include 1 vs 1 etc out of safe zones. NPC's etc should react if you break into a house, mug someone, commit murder. Nothing worse in an MMO for immersion breaking than NPC's who are just like "meh".

 

I for one want NPC women/men to run inside, slamming doors while clutching screaming children, and NPC bartenders to shake nervously while pouring me a drink because they've "heard of me", or just left a fool dead with a hole through him slumped over a table after a card game gone wrong. If you know what I mean.

 

(Hell - in a long game scenario - I'd love kids to see me save em from something and come back a year later IRL time to find a grown up NPC who joined X because I inspired them. You know, cause I'll be playing over a 10 year period n all)

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First, that turing joke is old, you copycat :P

I havent yet seen anyone else using that joke, only myself a couple of times :P

 

Secondly, call me an elitist, but I don't like being pampered. I plan on ultra paranoia and keeping myself safe with manual means.

thats fine, that doesnt make it the only playstyle that should even be considered valid :P

 

If everyone has a personal field of protection, there's no need for large cities and the protection they provide.

I never said "everyone".

 

What im thinking about is that small-ish groups at least get a chance to react when something happens.

 

Like 10-20 people that build a small ish something out in the wild.

 

They shouldnt be casually curbstompable without them having time to even try to fight back.

I dont say that the protection should enable to prevent the impending doom, it should just delay it long enough that they can get back to their computers and do something about the apocalypse.

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As an aside - this discussion should include 1 vs 1 etc out of safe zones. NPC's etc should react if you break into a house, mug someone, commit murder. Nothing worse in an MMO for immersion breaking than NPC's who are just like "meh".

 

I for one want NPC women/men to run inside, slamming doors while clutching screaming children, and NPC bartenders to shake nervously while pouring me a drink because they've "heard of me", or just left a fool dead with a hole through him slumped over a table after a card game gone wrong. If you know what I mean.

 

(Hell - in a long game scenario - I'd love kids to see me save em from something and come back a year later IRL time to find a grown up NPC who joined X because I inspired them. You know, cause I'll be playing over a 10 year period n all)

I was under the impression that there will be no NPC's in this game apart from the commerce/trate bots that will be around just long enough to get an economy going?

 

If there was a response system to punish aggressive action in a controlled area, I imagine instead it would look something like this.

 

In a controlled territory, where an org has set laws, they would set penalties/punishments for unauthorized actions that are not prevented by game mechanics. For example a TU will probably prevent unauthorized players from deleting chunks of buildings, but if a hostile player shows up and starts spawn killing residents, the city itselt might put out bouty hunting contracts to capture or kill the offender. That would turn any nearby merc into instant law-enforcement, and would allow for a player-driven defense to be mounted.

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I feel this discussion isn't going anywhere. The matter of hard timers or miracle shields and how necessary they are can hardly be discussed in isolation, as so many other aspects of PvP are hinging on it. For example:


  • How easy is it to destroy voxels in foreign controlled territory? How big of a hole can I make with a bunch of rockets and bombs? How expensive is the ammo? Can I even damage voxels at all, or only constructs? How easy is it for the defenders to repair the damage? Does the game memorize the blueprint so I can just bring the materials and the holes get filled up more or less automatically?
  • How easy is it to locate the Territory Unit? Does it show up on my HUD when I'm nearby? Do I need special scanners to help me locate it? Or do I need to find it manually, eyes only? This can be a considerable effort on a 1 km² stretch of land.
  • Can territories change owner immediately or is there a timer during which only the defenders / last owners can reclaim it?

These things make a big difference to base planning, sieges and general PvP.


 


Imagine for example if it was fairly difficult to destroy voxels in enemy territory. Even as a solo player I could deter most random griefers quite easily by digging a deep hole in a mountain, filling it up with thick doors and bulkheads, and plopping my Territory Unit at the very end. An attacker would need time and maybe explosives to get in there and take the territory from me.


 


--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---


 


In such a scenario a magical bubble of immunity wouldn't really be necessary, imo. Instead, just a spontaneous idea, maybe instead my stuff could always be vulnerable, but broken elements could have a timer during which I can repair them at reduced cost, including the Territory Unit. Let's call this timer survivability. The amount of time granted for this could be determined by the local infrastructure.


 


Imagine if you could juice up this survivability of your elements with special elements that use up a lot of energy, say for a maximum of 24 hours (if you have a lot of them and supply them all with energy). An attacker could go straight for the Territory Unit, break and besiege it while the survivability timer is ticking, and considerably reduce the time by either breaking power plants or directly breaking our magical survivability elements (say the timer goes down to half an hour when all the supporting infrastructure is gone). When the timer runs out for each broken element, it explodes and is gone; when the Territory Unit is gone, the attackers can plop down their own, thusly claiming the territory as their own.


 


This way war would be costly: You need some manpower, you need to destroy and rebuild some valuable infrastructure (and not just the Territory Unit). Battles between equals can be long and fierce, yet powerful organizations can steamroll the little man in an hour or two (a good amount of time imo: It's long enough that they are unlikely to just gank someone's home while passing by, but short enough that there is little to no arbitrarily waiting around during an actual siege). If your neighbour doesn't play the game anymore and doesn't bother to log in, you may just break his Territory Unit and wait for the next day to claim his land.


 


If your organization is limited in its global reach (and thus in its time of the day where anyone is online) you can invest in massive infrastructure that will effectively make it impossible to take the territory without your rivals either pulling an all-nighter, or by outgunning you to a degree where you probably wouldn't have had a fighting chance anyway. Or you can try and take it back next day, or take one of their territories. Your enemies have to sleep, too.


 


--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---


 


Yes, this still leaves the problem where certain timezones have an advantage over others. But I agree with HelloKitty that formally declaring war and then twiddling thumbs for a day is also a bit lame. I'd much rather have a system where you can spontaneously get into the action at any time, but random passers-bys can't just take over my homestead without at least a bit of time and effort (they can still cause damage and grief on the go if they want). That's the kind of balance I'd like to see.


 


The game probably needs a notification system telling you the names of everyone that attacked your constructs (or even just cratered the terrain in your territory), so you can repay them in kind or hire mercenaries.


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I feel this discussion isn't going anywhere. The matter of hard timers or miracle shields and how necessary they are can hardly be discussed in isolation, as so many other aspects of PvP are hinging on it. For example:

  • How easy is it to destroy voxels in foreign controlled territory? How big of a hole can I make with a bunch of rockets and bombs? How expensive is the ammo? Can I even damage voxels at all, or only constructs? How easy is it for the defenders to repair the damage? Does the game memorize the blueprint so I can just bring the materials and the holes get filled up more or less automatically?
  • How easy is it to locate the Territory Unit? Does it show up on my HUD when I'm nearby? Do I need special scanners to help me locate it? Or do I need to find it manually, eyes only? This can be a considerable effort on a 1 km² stretch of land.
  • Can territories change owner immediately or is there a timer during which only the defenders / last owners can reclaim it?

These things make a big difference to base planning, sieges and general PvP.

 

Imagine for example if it was fairly difficult to destroy voxels in enemy territory. Even as a solo player I could deter most random griefers quite easily by digging a deep hole in a mountain, filling it up with thick doors and bulkheads, and plopping my Territory Unit at the very end. An attacker would need time and maybe explosives to get in there and take the territory from me.

 

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

 

In such a scenario a magical bubble of immunity wouldn't really be necessary, imo. Instead, just a spontaneous idea, maybe instead my stuff could always be vulnerable, but broken elements could have a timer during which I can repair them at reduced cost, including the Territory Unit. Let's call this timer survivability. The amount of time granted for this could be determined by the local infrastructure.

 

Imagine if you could juice up this survivability of your elements with special elements that use up a lot of energy, say for a maximum of 24 hours (if you have a lot of them and supply them all with energy). An attacker could go straight for the Territory Unit, break and besiege it while the survivability timer is ticking, and considerably reduce the time by either breaking power plants or directly breaking our magical survivability elements (say the timer goes down to half an hour when all the supporting infrastructure is gone). When the timer runs out for each broken element, it explodes and is gone; when the Territory Unit is gone, the attackers can plop down their own, thusly claiming the territory as their own.

 

This way war would be costly: You need some manpower, you need to destroy and rebuild some valuable infrastructure (and not just the Territory Unit). Battles between equals can be long and fierce, yet powerful organizations can steamroll the little man in an hour or two (a good amount of time imo: It's long enough that they are unlikely to just gank someone's home while passing by, but short enough that there is little to no arbitrarily waiting around during an actual siege). If your neighbour doesn't play the game anymore and doesn't bother to log in, you may just break his Territory Unit and wait for the next day to claim his land.

 

If your organization is limited in its global reach (and thus in its time of the day where anyone is online) you can invest in massive infrastructure that will effectively make it impossible to take the territory without your rivals either pulling an all-nighter, or by outgunning you to a degree where you probably wouldn't have had a fighting chance anyway. Or you can try and take it back next day, or take one of their territories. Your enemies have to sleep, too.

 

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

 

Yes, this still leaves the problem where certain timezones have an advantage over others. But I agree with HelloKitty that formally declaring war and then twiddling thumbs for a day is also a bit lame. I'd much rather have a system where you can spontaneously get into the action at any time, but random passers-bys can't just take over my homestead without at least a bit of time and effort (they can still cause damage and grief on the go if they want). That's the kind of balance I'd like to see.

 

The game probably needs a notification system telling you the names of everyone that attacked your constructs (or even just cratered the terrain in your territory), so you can repay them in kind or hire mercenaries.

 

With some tweaks this might be a viable solution 

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Found some of the unfo on the wiki, and here is how it sounds like it'll work.

 

Territory Units (TU's) are what will allow an organization to claim an area. Once that TU is in place, seems like that org will unilaterally get to decide how that zone will work. Laws, building rights, mining rights, etc. This makes sense from a "we want players to be able to build civilizations" standpoint to prevent random players from walking into your metropolis and turning it into swiss cheese with sphere voxel deletion, or crashing their ship into your base.

 

This also makes it sound as though in a hex with a TU, unauthorized players won't be able to edit terrain at all, so no mining or digging, no greifing whatsoever.

 

But before you pvp folks flip out over this, I don't thing TU's will be safe zones, i bet structures can be attacked and damaged, just not built or edited by outsiders. So you won't be able to walk in and delete the wall to my vault, but i'm willing to bet you could shoot it up and eventually destroy components that can be locked onto. We might see a system like rust where attackers can damage strictures, but it would take a good ammount of time and resources to break through defenses. A seige should take long enough that an all-nighter can't undo enough work to shrek people who have day jobs.

 

Link http://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Territory_Control

 

Good info. Yeah with what we know so far seems like theres some room to have things to prevent/minimize the 4am raids and have it be organic ie not solely relying on stuff like timers and prearranged battles.  Use of force fields and turrets, scripted defenses are all things that could be put in place.

 

Besides having WoO -Windows of Opportunity whereby structures are only vulnerable during certain times, isn't the end of the world and have been used quite often to great effect. I mean even SWG back in the day, IMO one of the better sandbox games to exit (before the killed it) had WoO on base raids where it could only be destroyed during certain times.

 

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