Jump to content
MrFaul

Blueprint Editor for advanced building

Recommended Posts

Full blown Blueprint Editor

 

OK there will be trade able BPs (BP=Blueprint) we knew that already and we will be able to "print" them.
And JC mentioned somewhere there will be a "testing" mode.

However I think there is much more potential in a good BP ecosystem.

 

Since it is very very very annoying to build only in first person view for some people. (Like me, an engineer who loves good CAD software)

I'd rather a have good editor which allows me easy access to all voxels, elements and tools like a x-ray view or a quick access to the elements for scripting.

Don't get me wrong here, the FP building is vital too and also needs love :-)

 

 

A little example to demonstrate what I'm bitching about, building a big box:

First person:

Select box tool adjust size, look at your starting point click move physically around until your view and the box size matches what you want to accomplish, click again.
(I acknowledge that first person is better for polish and details but that is it)

Editor:

Click and hold on the grid, move mouse for x/y size, scroll the mouse-wheel for z and stop holding the mouse button, done.

 

 

DU is a game where we will be able to build fairly complex constructs so we need good tools to make that enjoyable.

If you want a bad example how it's not done look at SE, building constructing stuff in the survival mode is painstaking annoying,

you can't make fast iterations or changes of your creation to find something that works or/and looks good.

(The actual building mechanic is rather enjoyable and hope DU will have something similar)

So to make live easy a good editor is a must. But since we have so many aspects already and to avoid a sensory overload of its users only "one" editor won't cut it and several "modes" should be available.

 

What the editor should support:

Voxel mode
Element mode
Painting mode
(Prefab and)Planning mode
Simulation mode

 

 

Voxel mode:

Well all the tools to shape the voxels to your hearts content.

It would be nice if the simple forms had handles for manipulation similar to those found in vector programs.

 

Element mode:

Designed for easy clean access to the parts list and friction free placing of the elements.

 

Painting mode:

Yes a dedicated mode just to bring out the artistic side in you.

No seriously, I personally, I don't care much about the paint job but a lot of people will do.
DU is going to be a very social experience it is in my opinion vital to give people the option to develop color schemes for their fleets.
(Feature wish: the option to load SVG files as decals, allows to put logos and such on your ships :-)

 

(Prefab and)Planning mode:

This mode is for managing and adding the brains to your construct.
It allows you to access all scripts/elements, setup limits/properties of the moving parts,
define areas/spaces for a use case, setup the access rights,
manage and create prefabs/templates for easy use later on and
allows you to select a area to move it around(cut, copy and paste).

 

Simulation mode:

Well a mode to test all the stuff you just made to confirm that it works before you put all the resources and effort into building it only to discover it is a total failure.

 

 

A live version of a BP of each individual construct should be contained in the core block so you can easily access it, make modifications or copy it for sale.

Once you made changes to the "live version" and hit apply you only need to grab your building tools to disassemble/reassemble your construct without the need to constantly fiddle with your tool bar for the right parts.

This mechanic would also allow contractors/friends to build your construct since they won't need access to the BP only to the building site.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Full blown Blueprint Editor

 

OK there will be trade able BPs (BP=Blueprint) we knew that already and we will be able to "print" them.

And JC mentioned somewhere there will be a "testing" mode.

However I think there is much more potential in a good BP ecosystem.

 

Since it is very very very annoying to build only in first person view for some people. (Like me, an engineer who loves good CAD software)

I'd rather a have good editor which allows me easy access to all voxels, elements and tools like a x-ray view or a quick access to the elements for scripting.

Don't get me wrong here, the FP building is vital too and also needs love :-)

 

 

A little example to demonstrate what I'm bitching about, building a big box:

First person:

Select box tool adjust size, look at your starting point click move physically around until your view and the box size matches what you want to accomplish, click again.

(I acknowledge that first person is better for polish and details but that is it)

Editor:

Click and hold on the grid, move mouse for x/y size, scroll the mouse-wheel for z and stop holding the mouse button, done.

 

 

DU is a game where we will be able to build fairly complex constructs so we need good tools to make that enjoyable.

If you want a bad example how it's not done look at SE, building constructing stuff in the survival mode is painstaking annoying,

you can't make fast iterations or changes of your creation to find something that works or/and looks good.

(The actual building mechanic is rather enjoyable and hope DU will have something similar)

So to make live easy a good editor is a must. But since we have so many aspects already and to avoid a sensory overload of its users only "one" editor won't cut it and several "modes" should be available.

 

What the editor should support:

Voxel mode

Element mode

Painting mode

(Prefab and)Planning mode

Simulation mode

 

 

Voxel mode:

Well all the tools to shape the voxels to your hearts content.

It would be nice if the simple forms had handles for manipulation similar to those found in vector programs.

 

Element mode:

Designed for easy clean access to the parts list and friction free placing of the elements.

 

Painting mode:

Yes a dedicated mode just to bring out the artistic side in you.

No seriously, I personally, I don't care much about the paint job but a lot of people will do.

DU is going to be a very social experience it is in my opinion vital to give people the option to develop color schemes for their fleets.

(Feature wish: the option to load SVG files as decals, allows to put logos and such on your ships :-)

 

(Prefab and)Planning mode:

This mode is for managing and adding the brains to your construct.

It allows you to access all scripts/elements, setup limits/properties of the moving parts,

define areas/spaces for a use case, setup the access rights,

manage and create prefabs/templates for easy use later on and

allows you to select a area to move it around(cut, copy and paste).

 

Simulation mode:

Well a mode to test all the stuff you just made to confirm that it works before you put all the resources and effort into building it only to discover it is a total failure.

 

 

A live version of a BP of each individual construct should be contained in the core block so you can easily access it, make modifications or copy it for sale.

Once you made changes to the "live version" and hit apply you only need to grab your building tools to disassemble/reassemble your construct without the need to constantly fiddle with your tool bar for the right parts.

This mechanic would also allow contractors/friends to build your construct since they won't need access to the BP only to the building site.

 

extremely good idea, yet i would like to object to your last paragraphs... It is quite destroying of the blueprint economy if you can duplicate original blueprints. the solution is to handle it like in eve, but you can modify the original, and make backup copies that become an original blueprint once the origin has been modified more than n%. You can hack a ship and get copies of the core blueprint, or sell any amount of copies you can make (at a cost of time/material)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are (and those with the appropriate rights) the only one who is able to access your core the rights and duty system also manages BPs so I don't see any problems here. Which makes it your responsibility to setup the right rights...

 

And please, don't quote stuff that is on the same page unless it is really necessary....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are (and those with the appropriate rights) the only one who is able to access your core the rights and duty system also manages BPs so I don't see any problems here. Which makes it your responsibility to setup the right rights...

 

And please, don't quote stuff that is on the same page unless it is really necessary....

I'll try thanks :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally i don't like that. Specifically:

 

- I don't like the idea of a virtual/instanced world where you can build safely. I wouldn't mind the abiity to build in the open world with some kind of hologram blocks, that you don't really waste resources on. So it would still be a safe way to build, more realistic, and more cool to see players building around a city instead of nothing. 

- Since this is supposed to be a game, not a modeling software, I'd like only first person view possible or third with limitations in range. I'd like to see scaffolding, serious planning and a lot of people needed to build 1 large ship. Being able to just create a huge hull in a couple of minute with "god mode" makes me sad. It doesn't feel you're playing a game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shynras, I dont think this is about what it is supposed to be, it is about what it is supposed to do. This would allow for a more comfortable user experience and is in no way a mechanic that can be used to unbalance the game. The only result will be that we will have prettier and better designed ships. why disallow something that hasn't got any disadvantages except the comfort of other people?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure the 'Virtual Zone' (The place you go to build without risk the Developers mentioned) will be mainly for constructs that fly, hover, and so on. While I agree that it would look better if players could be seen designing ships in the main world, not everyone enjoys the fatal setback that a failed ship gives you. This is why they are planning the Virtual Zone. If your design goes wrong, it's not totally crippling.

I do like the idea of there being different 'Modes' inside the builder. Especially the planning mode.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You mention that the building process in survival Space Engineers is painstaking, but that's the point. It shouldn't take you 45 minutes in an editor to have a battleship constructed. The point in Space Engineers is that it takes a long time to lay out and weld together a spaceship... The thing is though that that aspect, in my opinion, is perfect for that game. Having to piece together and weld your ship is great for Space Engineers, but in Dual Universe things are made of voxels, not blocks, and the welding/industrial/construction environment doesn't fit it. So I do agree 3D modeling software of some kind would be a decent addition for designing blueprints only, but to a point.

 

I personally wouldn't want it to get too easy to design a ship or building. If it's too simple, than just about anyone can have an easy time designing a ship, making the industry not difficult to be a part of, and therefore not diverse. If it is time consuming and somewhat difficult to produce a good ship, than that will allow certain individuals to stand out as being good ship designers. In Space Engineers, lots of people don't finish ships simply because they don't have the time to. This allows those who do take the time to finish a good looking and/or functional ship to stand out. With 3D modeling software, yes there would be a lot more good content, which would certainly be great; but as a game it's supposed to be fun, not efficient, and as such I think it's better from a certain standpoint to limit the abilities of individuals so that others can stand out and have fun with it.

 

 

Personally i don't like that. Specifically:

 

- I don't like the idea of a virtual/instanced world where you can build safely. I wouldn't mind the abiity to build in the open world with some kind of hologram blocks, that you don't really waste resources on. So it would still be a safe way to build, more realistic, and more cool to see players building around a city instead of nothing. 

- Since this is supposed to be a game, not a modeling software, I'd like only first person view possible or third with limitations in range. I'd like to see scaffolding, serious planning and a lot of people needed to build 1 large ship. Being able to just create a huge hull in a couple of minute with "god mode" makes me sad. It doesn't feel you're playing a game. 

This, I definitely agree with. 3D modeling software is great if you're trying to make a pneumatic press for your company. But when you're trying to enjoy a fun game, efficiency is not the purpose. And if taking the time to design a large ship in first person piece by piece is too much work for you, then the system is working exactly as it should.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i disagree, have you tried using a cad software? it's not that simple either. since voxels are not blocks, first person construction will never have the fine tuning a cad has. I have worked with catia and solidworks, and it is not easy to use either, but it is way more precise. you should be able to make ugly ships fast and beautiful ones slowly, as a decent cad does. not having ones will make ugly ones slow and beautiful ones slower to make.

 

it's like the difference between sculpting with fingers or a fine stick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not saying that cad-like hasn't advantages, like being easier and faster, but it doesn't feel you're building a ship, it feels you're designing at best. i don't like "creative mode", it feels like i'm cheating. Designing in the real world doesn't have disadvantages beside the fact that someone could spy you while building (and that would provide more depth in the gameplay, since you'd need to find a way to hide, maybe building in a base underground), you could still use some kind of hologram block that doesn't require materials and if you get killed while building in the open world, you'd just keep the blueprint without damage to the design. I mean don't expect to be killed often, this'd happen rarely, the open world is huge (+ territorial control unit protection, safezones, and more)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand your need to argue against a feature others like and that does not deprive you of doing yours. Please use objective arguments, or at least ones that objectively justify the non implementation of it. 

I understand your point but both are not mutually exclusive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point of a good editor is accessibility and what I criticized about SE isn't the building mechanic it is the bad toolbase for construction in survival. Most people design their stuff in creative mode and use the projector to build it in the survival mode. Which would be comparable to using a editor.

 

Bad tools to "limit" accessibility aren't good for any game.

A good and easy toolset won't turn players off who wouldn't tried it otherwise.

Building and planning is essential for DU without it JCs "Death Star" would be impossible.

Those are scales where first person view wouldn't be of any use.

 

Just because you used the editor to plan your construct doesn't make it physical in the game you still need to build it. But since it is a BP there is no worry what goes where and you can focus on gathering resources and manpower to make it real.

 

First person building is still required anyway I'm not saying to abandon it, on the contrary it also needs good and easy tools.

But it won't do any good for big projects.

 

And if you think about it those two are different:

First person building and

constructing in the editor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is there are two sides to this, and they are both very valid. You say limitation isn't good for any game, but I say otherwise because then it means that it takes significant skill and technique to make something worthwhile. As for a death star, it certainly needs planning but I don't believe an editor is a requirement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a myriad of limitations already for the actual building process, why in the world should the planning be one too.

And even with the editor designing a good ship isn't easy. I have a feeling you underestimate how much a challenge it is to build big functional stuff.

Placement matters in DU, you can't just slap a few engines together and call it a day. It may be able to fly but it will be a nightmare to use.

I doubt that any of the stuff shown in the pre-alpha demos will be able to stay in the air later on.

 

The editor can also provide additional features like placing elements that are not in your skill group so a contractor can install it.

Heck you can even make a skill set of such advanced features.

 

There is no rational reason why there shouldn't be a editor.

Getting one however is depended on the mercy of the devs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure you're getting my point. I understand all too well how much of a challenge it is to build big functional stuff. This is exactly why I think it should be kept a challenge, so that as a game it is fun for those few who have the time, patience, and skill to work on these projects and thus it is uncommon to see seriously good work.

 

I'm replying merely to state what I already have, and to again tell you that this area is opinion based, but both opinions are valid from a certain standpoint.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there were to be an editor in game it should have to constructed, not initial available. Once you've researched the technology and skills necessary you should be able to build an editor; however, the size of the editor is limited by the materials you or your organization have and ship/station size would be limited by the editor's size. It would be a kind of Holodeck. Initially you would not have access to this and it would not be necessary for smaller constructs. But when it becomes economically viable to build an editor, then the organization or player would construct it. Furthermore it might be possible to rent these structures out for players that simply cannot afford the materials, at a reasonable price of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coming from Space Engineers, I can already say that this will be a huge timesaver compared to SE's survival. The demo of the building system showed a system more akin to SE's creative, with line and plane tools, and presumably mirror plane tools eventually. We will also have jetpacks, so we will be able to go and fly around anywhere (contextually) around a build. If you just remove the player's arm from the screen, it becomes essentially a 3rd person editor. Not only that, but the Virtual Simulation will allow "free" building inside, allowing you to design anything.

 

My point is the balance is already heavily skewed in favor of easy design. 90% of what OP mentioned looks like it's going to be in the game in one form or another. Sure, there's no extremely advanced building tools, but this is a game, not CAD software.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My answer to those who don't like safe designing in virtual solo-instance inside DU:

 

If I recall correctly, developers said there will be way to design stuff in-game, they referenced the Inception syndrome (in this case it will be system in system), so we will be able to use in-game editor, which is literally just the game in solo-instance.

 

And I see no problem in it. Do you think it will break immersion? No way.. in civilization building game we need tools and options so we can make creations as in real world. So logically there are two ways and you are free to choose what suits you better:

 

Approach 1 - design blueprint in virtual system/tool -> test it in virtual system/tool -> manufacture it or sell the blueprint copy

Approach 2 - build whatever you want directly

 

Both of these are required, but Approach 1 is safe and ONLY possible way to make really nice and great creations without risking that someone comes and destroy your creation in middle of process. This game would die really quickly, because the creative people would just leave it immediately after first such experience. There must be way to design safely and have these blueprint masters permanently linked to your account (and if you delete them, they should be recoverable through support ticket). And that's ok, we are talking about plans here, not physical creations. Once you make them, they can and should be destroyable. But with the plans, with enough resources you can rebuild it.

 

 

 

 

Now, to Mr. Faul...

 

I think that your ideas are nice, but this in-game editing will probably already work very similar way, it just won't be standalone, you need to launch the game, log-in and enter the editing mode. Considering size of their team, this is only way to go for now. In future, maybe they will separate it, who knows. But I don't think it's necessary. It would mostly be helpful to us only right now, because we are bored and waiting :-)

 

 

 

And finally just few things of support for the devs if they read this

 

I'm ruby backer, love the idea and all you are planning. I also like that you are realizing that if you let players to make chaos, they will. And complete chaos and destruction without no backups and basic safeties (for example, builder who spent 1000 hours building space station should have the original blueprint permanently protected and linked to his account) would mean death for this game. There must be balance and this game needs all kinds of players. But without builders, there will be no civilization to fight for, only eternal chaos - guaranteed. If that would happen, even if I pledged a lot into this game, I would simply leave it. So don't mess up and keep your promises please because your dream is mine now. I'm going to stay around to make positive posts on your way to make sure the roadmap won't change dramatically just because of few hater with no development experience (this is not related to Mr. Faul, he is cool guy and with plenty of great ideas) :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...