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Zen001

Programming Gameplay and Continuity

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Will the organizations having talented coders in their ranks get an edge over others? Probably.

But the same could be said for organizations having pro-gamer level players, that can win fights on 1 vs 3.

The same could be said for organizations having 10, 20 times the number of people than others. There is strength in number as well.

This is part of the game too.

 

This!  And as many other things like this that give players/organisations with particular talents a way to leverage them.

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Good post, plenty of information for me to catalogue away in the brain box for pulling out at a later time and linking people to :)... I might start something where I catalogue all the responses you've given in a fashion that can be searchable... But I already have to much on my plate for work :(... Someday maybe :)

 

If you want to contribute in gathering relevant/meaningful information about the game, you can help building the official community wiki ;)

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

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If you want to contribute in gathering relevant/meaningful information about the game, you can help building the official community wiki ;)

 

Best regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

I will have to look into that for a weekend endeavour, given that I need to design, code and implement a new system at work in the next month or so, I'm going to be a little full of busy, especially working the forums like I am right now ;)... If I can squeeze some time out as spare I'll look into it but i'll have to learn how to do things on there first, not really updated a wiki in 'ages'... 

 

nora,

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Hello there,

 

If you are worried about programmers getting an unfair advantage, there is an elegant and simple solution in theory (it may have a lot of practical concerns to address) : all programs must be open source and everyone can copy the programs if they want to.

 

Regards,

Shadow

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Hello there,

 

If you are worried about programmers getting an unfair advantage, there is an elegant and simple solution in theory (it may have a lot of practical concerns to address) : all programs must be open source and everyone can copy the programs if they want to.

 

Regards,

Shadow

 

Sorry but no, definitively no.

Everybody want to get a reward or appreciation for his/her work and there is nothing wrong with it.

Like I already said they should be able to sell there scripts InGame.

 

And with our new knownledge we can say that they dont whould have an to big Advantage.

Edited by Azrael

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Hello there,

 

If you are worried about programmers getting an unfair advantage, there is an elegant and simple solution in theory (it may have a lot of practical concerns to address) : all programs must be open source and everyone can copy the programs if they want to.

 

Regards,

Shadow

I second Azrael's strong objection to this. As I described in my post above, LUA scripting will just be for writing control systems for your constructs. Why would you make players' DPUs open source but not their construct blueprints?

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Hello there,

 

If you are worried about programmers getting an unfair advantage, there is an elegant and simple solution in theory (it may have a lot of practical concerns to address) : all programs must be open source and everyone can copy the programs if they want to.

 

Regards,

Shadow

 

 

No to this as well. If i create a 'top of the range' script that does something others haven't been able to get to work yet, i don't want someone just waltzing into my base and copying it without any effort.

 

Scripts should be attached to the 'Master blueprint' of the construct, you sell the construct you sell the script attached. But if you sell a copy of the blueprint (the one off spawning blueprints) you don't get it to edit but you can use it, just like the copied voxels in the blueprint.

 

I vote no for this. Unless we all have misinterpreted it as something else that what it describes currently.

 

nora,

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I didn't said I was for it, I just said that if you want to leverage the advantage of programmers (which was a strong concern so far), that was an idea.

Of course, I prefer to sell my programs :).

 

Regards,

Shadow

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Scripts should be attached to the 'Master blueprint' of the construct, you sell the construct you sell the script attached. But if you sell a copy of the blueprint (the one off spawning blueprints) you don't get it to edit but you can use it, just like the copied voxels in the blueprint.

 

 

We'll be able to script Control Unit DPUs, and package them up as components which we can name and then sell as a product. Whether DPUs will be a part of your construct blueprint or not isn't really clear. Maybe a component DPU will be one of the "materials" needed to build the thing. Or maybe it's as you describe. Or maybe you can choose whether to include a prescripted DPU as part of the blueprint or not... or maybe it will be a completely different system altogether.

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Klatu is correct.  The LUA devblog indicates we can create "Components", that contain our scripts.  

 

I would imagine a component is like an electronic device with an embedded operating system.

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Klatu is correct.  The LUA devblog indicates we can create "Components", that contain our scripts.  

 

I would imagine a component is like an electronic device with an embedded operating system.

 

Yes but are they sellable/tradable by themselves or do they have to be attached to a Construct/blueprint to be sold ?

 

I'll have to look at the Lua thing again to find out i guess.. That one was one of the first i read so i've not so much in the front of my mind anymore :)

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Hey Zen,

 

I know you're excited about this game, and its easy to project the problems of other game developers onto it.  It appears that the majority of forum members are aware of the other projects and the challenges they're experiencing, so I'm sure NQ is aware as well.

 

The "Project Charter" will have all of the features and goals that were initially stated.  You and I may not ever see it, but we can get a good idea of what is in it by reviewing the details of the Kickstarter campaign.  Scope crepe comes in, when you don't have a good project manager.  There will certainly be revisions and addendums to the charter.  Some may be critical, and delay the initial release, but a good PM will make those "additional features", future expansions.

 

But your suggestion shouldn't be dismissed outright.  At the moment, we're "Pre-Alpha" so things a pretty fluid.  Feel free to make recommendations.  They can easily be added to the project before Kickstarter.

 

As for the economic viability...  JC Baillie is an entrepreneur.  He already owns other companies.  I'm confident he's aware of the demand for the project he's developing.  He's already heavily invested in this project, and I'm confident his business model has been heavily researched.

 

Zen,

 

Here's a question to you...

 

Since all the other "sandbox games" have a scriptable interface, why should DU hamstring itself by not providing a common feature? 

 

I would expect not providing a common feature in your product, would turn off more customers than it will generate.

I see your points and they are reasonable enough and I do plan to support DU up to Kickstarter when more details are available - from there I'll make a decision whether to financially support the game. As for your question, I guess it would depend on what kind of 'sandbox game' we are talking about. Are we talking about games that players can purchase for their server or are we talking about a single shard universe like EVE where you cannot script interface? If we are indeed talking about a single universe similar to EVE then there is a very good reason why you cannot script - scriptable anything would completely unbalance gameplay and create a nightmare of re-balancing; otherwise EVE would become a scripting war and not a game based on existing assets and gameplay! Of course you could argue that scripting can and will be an essential part of gameplay, but again I have to ask how many potential supporters are going to spend weeks if not months to learn how to code? And what's going to keep another developer from making a similar game that doesn't involve coding, thereby cutting into players support in an increasing market? Of course no one has control over what other developers build but it is something to consider - broad appeal will be absolutely critical to insure long term viability. Coding will greatly undermine widespread appeal, not to mention gameplay and immersion, in my opinion. But building? Absolutely! But spending weeks and/or months to learn LUA to build? I don't see the broad appeal in that. But again if DU is more interested in filling a niche market, sure....go for it! 

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Yes but are they sellable/tradable by themselves or do they have to be attached to a Construct/blueprint to be sold ?

 

I'll have to look at the Lua thing again to find out i guess.. That one was one of the first i read so i've not so much in the front of my mind anymore :)

 

I was under the impression the DPU control system could be sold as a package when I read the Dev blog. Because they discuss having basic control packages available to all to use with their constructs without learning LUA. 

 

I see your points and they are reasonable enough and I do plan to support DU up to Kickstarter when more details are available - from there I'll make a decision whether to financially support the game. As for your question, I guess it would depend on what kind of 'sandbox game' we are talking about. Are we talking about games that players can purchase for their server or are we talking about a single shard universe like EVE where you cannot script interface? If we are indeed talking about a single universe similar to EVE then there is a very good reason why you cannot script - scriptable anything would completely unbalance gameplay and create a nightmare of re-balancing; otherwise EVE would become a scripting war and not a game based on existing assets and gameplay! Of course you could argue that scripting can and will be an essential part of gameplay, but again I have to ask how many potential supporters are going to spend weeks if not months to learn how to code? And what's going to keep another developer from making a similar game that doesn't involve coding, thereby cutting into players support in an increasing market? Of course no one has control over what other developers build but it is something to consider - broad appeal will be absolutely critical to insure long term viability. Coding will greatly undermine widespread appeal, not to mention gameplay and immersion, in my opinion. But building? Absolutely! But spending weeks and/or months to learn LUA to build? I don't see the broad appeal in that. But again if DU is more interested in filling a niche market, sure....go for it! 

 

 

I get what you keep going on about, but remember, we are not scripting game elements. Just linking the functionalities of in game items. We cannot create new functions. 

 

And I have to state this because it is annoying me. LUA is not a programing language, it is a scripting language. Theres a difference, and a whole order of magnitude for complexity. It is seriously a string of "if this do this" statements. And the Devs have stated already, you do not need to learn LUA to play.

 

Personally I am glad they are doing this, afterall the game is marketed as 'you can do anything'. If I cant determine how my constructs behave and react to inputs, how can I do anything. You will have the basic control packages, that would be the same as if they hardcoded them in, but then you can modify and change them as you please. Or buy someone elses if you like what they did. 

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I was under the impression the DPU control system could be sold as a package when I read the Dev blog. Because they discuss having basic control packages available to all to use with their constructs without learning LUA. 

 

 

 

I get what you keep going on about, but remember, we are not scripting game elements. Just linking the functionalities of in game items. We cannot create new functions. 

 

And I have to state this because it is annoying me. LUA is not a programing language, it is a scripting language. Theres a difference, and a whole order of magnitude for complexity. It is seriously a string of "if this do this" statements. And the Devs have stated already, you do not need to learn LUA to play.

 

Personally I am glad they are doing this, afterall the game is marketed as 'you can do anything'. If I cant determine how my constructs behave and react to inputs, how can I do anything. You will have the basic control packages, that would be the same as if they hardcoded them in, but then you can modify and change them as you please. Or buy someone elses if you like what they did. 

 

Sorry but LUA was mentioned on forums and as this game is pre-Alpha, it appeared that LUA would be a part of game play. That said, if LUA is indeed not going to be used and everything has a basic control package and/or hardcoded in, and as long as it has a workable relatively easy UI to use for the average gamer, then this is absolutely a winning format. But of course we will have to see what the Kickstarter will reveal but I am feeling more confident in DU's success. But of course your statement 'And the Devs have stated already, you do not need to learn LUA to play' is ambigous as it may not be necessary to play but advantages. So again we shall see. What's more, mechanics, scripting and or coding aside, design can be in of itself competitive - especially if supporters are making income from sales - so it is crucial for everyone to go into DU on equal footing. 

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Sorry but LUA was mentioned on forums and as this game is pre-Alpha, it appeared that LUA would be a part of game play. That said, if LUA is indeed not going to be used and everything has a basic control package and/or hardcoded in, and as long as it has a workable relatively easy UI to use for the average gamer, then this is absolutely a winning format. But of course we will have to see what the Kickstarter will reveal but I am feeling more confident in DU's success. But of course your statement 'And the Devs have stated already, you do not need to learn LUA to play' is ambigous as it may not be necessary to play but advantages. So again we shall see. What's more, mechanics aside, design can be in of itself competitive - especially if supporters are making income from sales - so it is crucial for everyone to go into DU on equal footing. 

 

You misunderstood my statement. You do not need to, but it will be advantageous if you wish to have more control over your construct. Have you read the Dev blog on LUA and DPUs? If not please do. 

 

The Devs have mentioned everyone will have access to basic control packages to control their constructs without learning LUA, but for those who wish, you can design your own control systems. There will be limits on what you can do, as the modules that your are wiring together can only do so much. 

 

Think of it this way, I am not programing a turret that has massive damage and fire rate, I am telling that turret what and when to fire, but it has predefined set parameterless. In a normal game (think SE or Emperyion) your turrets follow a predefined script based on what is detected and its enemy status. You CAN use the package like this that will be provided, or you can write your own, or you can buy one that is better for what you want. But what you cannot do is progam an ultimate weapon, just how it reacts to stimuli. 

 

 

And I dont see what the fuss is about starting on 'equal footing', no one is on equal footing. Those who have good hand eye coordination and play a lot of shooter and fighter games will be better at combat, those with military training will be good at tactics and leadership, those with business background will be good at running an organization, some people are good at trading and know tips and tricks, some are good with art and design and can make really amazing looking creations, some just know how to balance systems really well for a great construct, others can think large scale and set the goals needed to accomplish the task. 

 

People will be naturally good at things, all you are doing is adding programmers (really anyone who can break a process down into logical steps since scripting is easy) to the list of people that will have a niche advantage. Would you want them to say that you cannot build your own ship as well, since I know people who are much better at amazing looking designs than I am and it gives them an unfair advantage. Or how about banning any CEO or business owner from running an organization since that is an unfair advantage. 

 

No, because that would defeat the point of the game, it is a game where you can do anything you wish, they are only giving us the physics to work in, just like the real world. Do what you are good at to excel at the game and let others do what they are good at. Find those that can do what you cant and form a group. Or use it as an opportunity to learn a new skill. I know a mathematician who learned LUA scripting for MC and he loves it, now he is going to school to be a programmer. I am a very logical and data oriented guy, my degrees are in electrical and computer engineering. I never once touched LUA when we played , even though I could have.  I left that to him to learn. Instead I played around with aesthetic builds and running the group. But we all had our niche we were good at, but none of us knew it all. I knew the power system in and out, down to number crunching on efficiencies, but I had no clue how the ME system worked, or the magic mods in the pack. But I could still play the game just fine.

 

So dont let the fact that you can script certain interactions turn you off from DU.  It adds a whole new level to the game and what you can do with it. If you never wanna touch it, fine. Need a control system for your spacecraft, use the one provided or buy some from the market and install them. Do what you are good at to make money and let others do what they are good at. 

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You misunderstood my statement. You do not need to, but it will be advantageous if you wish to have more control over your construct. Have you read the Dev blog on LUA and DPUs? If not please do. 

 

The Devs have mentioned everyone will have access to basic control packages to control their constructs without learning LUA, but for those who wish, you can design your own control systems. There will be limits on what you can do, as the modules that your are wiring together can only do so much. 

 

Think of it this way, I am not programing a turret that has massive damage and fire rate, I am telling that turret what and when to fire, but it has predefined set parameterless. In a normal game (think SE or Emperyion) your turrets follow a predefined script based on what is detected and its enemy status. You CAN use the package like this that will be provided, or you can write your own, or you can buy one that is better for what you want. But what you cannot do is progam an ultimate weapon, just how it reacts to stimuli. 

 

 

And I dont see what the fuss is about starting on 'equal footing', no one is on equal footing. Those who have good hand eye coordination and play a lot of shooter and fighter games will be better at combat, those with military training will be good at tactics and leadership, those with business background will be good at running an organization, some people are good at trading and know tips and tricks, some are good with art and design and can make really amazing looking creations, some just know how to balance systems really well for a great construct, others can think large scale and set the goals needed to accomplish the task. 

 

People will be naturally good at things, all you are doing is adding programmers (really anyone who can break a process down into logical steps since scripting is easy) to the list of people that will have a niche advantage. Would you want them to say that you cannot build your own ship as well, since I know people who are much better at amazing looking designs than I am and it gives them an unfair advantage. Or how about banning any CEO or business owner from running an organization since that is an unfair advantage. 

 

No, because that would defeat the point of the game, it is a game where you can do anything you wish, they are only giving us the physics to work in, just like the real world. Do what you are good at to excel at the game and let others do what they are good at. Find those that can do what you cant and form a group. Or use it as an opportunity to learn a new skill. I know a mathematician who learned LUA scripting for MC and he loves it, now he is going to school to be a programmer. I am a very logical and data oriented guy, my degrees are in electrical and computer engineering. I never once touched LUA when we played , even though I could have.  I left that to him to learn. Instead I played around with aesthetic builds and running the group. But we all had our niche we were good at, but none of us knew it all. I knew the power system in and out, down to number crunching on efficiencies, but I had no clue how the ME system worked, or the magic mods in the pack. But I could still play the game just fine.

 

So dont let the fact that you can script certain interactions turn you off from DU.  It adds a whole new level to the game and what you can do with it. If you never wanna touch it, fine. Need a control system for your spacecraft, use the one provided or buy some from the market and install them. Do what you are good at to make money and let others do what they are good at

Well, lets put this a different way, if this game required 3ds max design and importing, and I have a few years experience in this department - although you wouldn't think so looking at my creations - I would have a HUGE lead going into the game because I can design and build something that probably 95% of other supporters would take months if not years to learn the basics. So thanks DU for making a game I can make oodles of money with immediately stepping into the game. Don't know 3ds Max? Tough! Don't like the fact that I scripted my own kick ass fire control but won't sell it too anyone? Well, tough! Spend a year or two learning the basics....but have fun anyway while I crush you and potentially own every system nearby with my wad of cash. ;)

 

What's more your 'Do what you are good at to excel in the game' analogy is false. No one would argue that different people shouldn't use their different talents. That isn't the point. The point is creating a level playing field so players can utilize their given talents, equally. But when you are giving someone with a particular talent an advantage from the outset - then the game is rigged. Whether it is scripting, coding, 3ds max or what have you - if it requires using gaming files, basic knowledge of scripting or what have you - it smacks of Developers building games for scripters , coders and the like.....and that would be unfortunate given the solid overall concept of the game. 

 

Anyway, I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree, but whether we agree on the basic parameters of the game or not, I do appreciate your civility.

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Well, lets put this a different way, if this game required 3ds max design and importing, and I have a few years experience in this department - although you wouldn't think so looking at my creations - I would have a HUGE lead going into the game because I can design and build something that probably 95% of other supporters would take months if not years to learn the basics. So thanks DU for making a game I can make oodles of money with immediately stepping into the game. Don't know 3ds Max? Tough! Don't like the fact that I scripted my own kick ass fire control but won't sell it too anyone? Well, tough! Spend a year or two learning the basics....but have fun anyway while I crush you and potentially own every system nearby with my wad of cash. ;)

 

What's more your 'Do what you are good at to excel in the game' analogy is false. No one would argue that different people shouldn't use their different talents. That isn't the point. The point is creating a level playing field so players can utilize their given talents, equally. But when you are giving someone with a particular talent an advantage from the outset - then the game is rigged. Whether it is scripting, coding, 3ds max or what have you - if it requires using gaming files, basic knowledge of scripting or what have you - it smacks of Developers building games for scripters , coders and the like.....and that would be unfortunate given the solid overall concept of the game. 

 

Anyway, I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree, but whether we agree on the basic parameters of the game or not, I do appreciate your civility.

 

 

Well there is a 3D design system in the game, and your knowledge of 3D modeling as well as your talent at doing appealing designs can be utilized and give you an advantage over me on that. And it isnt like they are requiring you to learn Java or C++, Lua is to programing what the modeling systems these games use are to Maya or your 3DS Max. 

 

Just because my advantage is in coding and yours is in designing means nothing, infact thats when you partner up. You build the ship, I build the systems then you both profit. I hope I can automate everything and solo pilot ships, I dont like the idea of requiring 20 people to run my creation. Granted it may not be effective, but as long as I can make it function. 

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Well there is a 3D design system in the game, and your knowledge of 3D modeling as well as your talent at doing appealing designs can be utilized and give you an advantage over me on that. And it isnt like they are requiring you to learn Java or C++, Lua is to programing what the modeling systems these games use are to Maya or your 3DS Max. 

 

Just because my advantage is in coding and yours is in designing means nothing, infact thats when you partner up. You build the ship, I build the systems then you both profit. I hope I can automate everything and solo pilot ships, I dont like the idea of requiring 20 people to run my creation. Granted it may not be effective, but as long as I can make it function. 

Sure, teaming up would be advantages but that in itself could be a problem because there will be people who want to play a game that's doesn't rely on other players. EVE for example has had to add gaming mechanics that takes this into account because corporations were dominating game play. Personally I would want the option of teaming up or going it alone. But if a coder/scriptor can create a devastating fire arch with ultimum range, it will turn my beautiful spaceship into a heap of floating rubble. So what choice do I have but to team up with a coder/scriptor.....so one hand is already tied behind my back. 

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Sure, teaming up would be advantages but that in itself could be a problem because there will be people who want to play a game that's doesn't rely on other players. EVE for example has had to add gaming mechanics that takes this into account because corporations were dominating game play. Personally I would want the option of teaming up or going it alone. But if a coder/scriptor can create a devastating fire arch with ultimum range, it will turn my beautiful spaceship into a heap of floating rubble. So what choice do I have but to team up with a coder/scriptor.....so one hand is already tied behind my back. 

 

Well rest assured, form what the Devs have stated I will not be able to code a 'devistating fire arch with unlimited range'. That would be programing in a new weapon, which I wont be able to do. What I can do is write a script that tells it to target you when my sensor sees you and fire when in range. But you will have the same guns as me, the same sensors, and all the same components otherwise. 

 

The scripting only effects how theses modules talk to each other and react. 

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Well rest assured, form what the Devs have stated I will not be able to code a 'devistating fire arch with unlimited range'. That would be programing in a new weapon, which I wont be able to do. What I can do is write a script that tells it to target you when my sensor sees you and fire when in range. But you will have the same guns as me, the same sensors, and all the same components otherwise. 

 

The scripting only effects how theses modules talk to each other and react. 

 

Having the ability to script how modules talk to each other and react is no less devastating, especially for gamers who are not competent scriptors. So again we are at an impasse. :( . I suppose it really boils down to how DU implements scripting. Whether it will be user friendly requiring a day or two to learn, or whether it will be a frustrating, time consuming experience. 

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