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Still the same problem as pre-schematic era


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hi ppl

 

The problem is still the same. Active orgs can still produce everything they need despite the high schematic price. Over time it's going to be worse. It's not going to be good for the economy. The only way around this to limit this by time.

 

I suggest to add an extra complexity to the formula by adding extra talent lines into the Industry tree. It would basically boost the endproduct.

 

for example

 

Space Engine Thrust Efficiency - 1%,2%,4%,8%,16%

Space Engine Warmup Time - 1sec,-2sec, -4sec, -8 sec

 

for this above, NQ would need to enhance the market as well by adding attribute filters, and perhaps change the naming convention of the crafted stuff such as Space Engine XL (stats) 

I would even let the players to name the elements that they make. Even color them :)

 

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It isn't a problem that organizations can build effective factories. The game is designed to encourage player's organizing amongst themselves to do things which are otherwise impossible for a single player.

 

The problem addressed by schematics was this: Rather than buying and selling at markets, nearly every player makes a small factory to produce the basic supplies he needs, stifling economic activity. Schematics serve to raise the cost of production to incentivize specialization and market participation. This has been achieved, and the schematic system makes it cheaper to buy items at market unless you want to mass produce them. This in turn incentivizes players and organizations to produce more goods and sell them to players now turning to markets for supplies.

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12 hours ago, fourteen said:

This has been achieved, and the schematic system makes it cheaper to buy items at market unless you want to mass produce them.

 

Would you care to provide the number to back that up?

 

The economy not starting is not and never was about solo players and small groups not using the markets. It is and was about big orgs pretty much ignoring the in game economy in favor of their internal (and frankly mostly better set up and managed) internal one. Big orgs build their own stuff, mine their own resources pay their org members with their own currency and pretty much provide everything (new) members need out of their own stockpiles. What surplus they have they may bring to markets at whatever price they want.

 

The economy is also not starting because players have no stake in it and using thein game economy means venturing into a lagfest around the markets that potentially could be providing goods at reasonable prices or going the long way around to distant markets and paying a premium.

 

Most of what you need for everyday needs can be made using the nanocrafter with no need for schematics anyway.. something NQ will probably nerf next..

 

The only reason players generally use the in game economy is to sell to bots as it's the only way to get money for now.

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14 minutes ago, Spaceboi said:

I buy almost everything off the market, I'm in a small org and we can't make most things. I'd imagine there are a lot of players like me, I see things on the market being sold constantly. 

yeah obviously. blazemonger is like the most active player on the forums, constantly butthurt, always raging at the developers.

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7 minutes ago, fourteen said:

yeah obviously. blazemonger is like the most active player on the forums, constantly butthurt, always raging at the developers.

Pffff, blaze still has 900 posts to catch me

 

Going to go after him now personally or care to react properly to his post?

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I don't really see the problem with big orgs being self sufficient. I don't think there is any way to avoid that sort of thing in these games. What we need to see is more money sinks, perhaps ones geared towards big orgs. Like... taxes per member per week or something? And maybe some way to sink their money in black markets, something I think could make the game much more interesting and help the economy if implemented right.

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12 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Would you care to provide the number to back that up?

 

The economy not starting is not and never was about solo players and small groups not using the markets. It is and was about big orgs pretty much ignoring the in game economy in favor of their internal (and frankly mostly better set up and managed) internal one. Big orgs build their own stuff, mine their own resources pay their org members with their own currency and pretty much provide everything (new) members need out of their own stockpiles. What surplus they have they may bring to markets at whatever price they want.

 

The economy is also not starting because players have no stake in it and using thein game economy means venturing into a lagfest around the markets that potentially could be providing goods at reasonable prices or going the long way around to distant markets and paying a premium.

 

Most of what you need for everyday needs can be made using the nanocrafter with no need for schematics anyway.. something NQ will probably nerf next..

 

The only reason players generally use the in game economy is to sell to bots as it's the only way to get money for now.

 

3 hours ago, Lethys said:

Pffff, blaze still has 900 posts to catch me

 

Going to go after him now personally or care to react properly to his post?

1. The idea that players have "no stake" in the economy is ridiculous

2. There is not a huge sector of players unwilling to trade at markets due to lag which isn't prohibitive

3. The supermajority of players do not exclusively participate in intra-organizational economies if they even are members of such organizations

4. Intra-organizational economies are an exceptional feature of DU, not a bug

5. I dont need a "number to back that up" to explain obvious realities, but I'll hold blazemonger's hand. To make a large retro brake, the schematic tree costs 1.5-2 million quanta (ballpark estimate). The industry units cost approximately 200k quanta. A large retro brake at market costs approximately 50k on Alioth, 150k elsewhere. I don't know input costs (and they're highly variable), but lets assume 25k quanta for a 50% profit margin on Alioth. If you want 4 large retro brakes for your ship, it costs 1.8-2.3 million to produce them yourself versus 200k to purchase them on Alioth. According to these estimates you would have to sell 72-92 large retro brakes to recoup your fixed costs.

6. The big problems in the economy are low player population, low physical density of this player population, and youth of the game so not enough factories yet

7. The idea that anyone, including orgs, can sell at whatever price they want is ignorant. They can't sell if nobody buys, and if there is a huge profit margin, a solo player can cut the price and make his own profit in that margin.

8. I agree that the nanocrafter is over-powered

9. My 'personal critique' of blazemonger is 100% accurate

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On 2/14/2021 at 9:47 PM, Lethys said:

Pffff, blaze still has 900 posts to catch me

 

Going to go after him now personally or care to react properly to his post?

having less posts than a player that doesnt play, he should be ashamed of himself then i guess ;)

 

The problem DU currently has that the production of nearly all elements is way higher than the demand, which leads to collapsing prices whenever more than only 2 or 3 ppl sell the same type of element at the same location, and the schematic exploit only made it worse (which is why its even more weird, that it wasn't adressed properly)

Without a huge influx of non-undustrialist players or a good and meaningful system to destroy elements that wont change and the economy will stay as crippled as it is.

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Schematics were just a hurdle. The bigger and more well equipped the org the easier it was to jump over and take advantage of production, market potential, and saturation of the market as the rest of the game caught up. It was just a momentary fix and until they limit how much you can put into the market along with adding upkeep/maintenence via repairing damage sustained through mass production as in rl and parts/machines constantly going down, and also how fast you can grab ore and process it due to scanners being used constantly to find what is left of the ore in the solar system nothing will fix this broken system from top to bottom

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On 2/16/2021 at 10:53 AM, Warlander said:

Schematics were just a hurdle. The bigger and more well equipped the org the easier it was to jump over and take advantage of production, market potential, and saturation of the market as the rest of the game caught up. It was just a momentary fix and until they limit how much you can put into the market along with adding upkeep/maintenence via repairing damage sustained through mass production as in rl and parts/machines constantly going down, and also how fast you can grab ore and process it due to scanners being used constantly to find what is left of the ore in the solar system nothing will fix this broken system from top to bottom

The goal is not to keep people from making large factories by simply increasing the cost. Idk why this misconception is so common, NQ never said that.

Yes, orgs can still make mega-factories, it just takes them a bit longer. This is desirable gameplay.

The goal of schematics is not to stop orgs from building factories, it is to stop solo players from building them, or at least make it only economical to build a small number of production lines for a few items for sale. This addresses the problem vylqun brought up (about low demand generally for goods) by greatly reducing the supply of goods to market, forcing most players to use markets rather than small personal factories.

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1 hour ago, fourteen said:

The goal is not to keep people from making large factories by simply increasing the cost. Idk why this misconception is so common, NQ never said that.

Yes, orgs can still make mega-factories, it just takes them a bit longer. This is desirable gameplay.

The goal of schematics is not to stop orgs from building factories, it is to stop solo players from building them, or at least make it only economical to build a small number of production lines for a few items for sale. This addresses the problem vylqun brought up (about low demand generally for goods) by greatly reducing the supply of goods to market, forcing most players to use markets rather than small personal factories.

I don't have the timestamp, but in the 0.23 patch video JC specifically said that he didn't think any org could produce everything with schematics in place. I think he said the cost came out to 150 billion quanta to do it. That was before the price reduction though. It's much more realistic now.

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10 hours ago, fourteen said:

The goal is not to keep people from making large factories by simply increasing the cost. Idk why this misconception is so common, NQ never said that.

Yes, orgs can still make mega-factories, it just takes them a bit longer. This is desirable gameplay.

The goal of schematics is not to stop orgs from building factories, it is to stop solo players from building them, or at least make it only economical to build a small number of production lines for a few items for sale. This addresses the problem vylqun brought up (about low demand generally for goods) by greatly reducing the supply of goods to market, forcing most players to use markets rather than small personal factories.

 

Lol thats pretty stupid and completely ass backwards way to put a band-aid on the problem.

 

So because megaorgs are destroying the market and the bots are automatically buying their ore already for super cheap and then adding it back in when the market actually starts moving to anchor it in place when actual demand hits the solution is to kill the competition of the mega orgs so that it forces you to join one to further help destroy the market through more hyper saturation of items nobody really needed in the first place because they took out the one thing that actually made sense that got the market moving but in itself created hyper inflation due to destructive elements?

 

It does not matter who has an industry if that is 1. 3, or a 1000 person org the scale is exactly the same in terms of what you can make and how much you can process and craft and the quota the machine demands along with the talents needed to do so. All these mega orgs with the KS, Alpha, and multi key backers who likely had a miner, pvp, and industrialist accounts are the ones to blame for this and got to take advvantage of that for quite a while.

 

For instance our 3 man crew was putting in 12-18hr days pulling anywhere from a minimum of 2-4 boxes a day, 12-24+ a week with 36-72+ boxes collectively because our industry we built had that high of a quota. We were not trying to destroy the market or even sell anything tbh as much as we wanted to keep ourselves stockpiled like every other org in the game is doing hoarding everything they can. Most of it was just being put into company vehicles, structures, and so on. But apparently our 3 man crew with a quota of like 750kl a day is going to destroy the game somehow vs a 1000 man org with the capability to scan moons in 24hrs or a whole planet in a weekend with ease and dispatch potentially hundreds of miners to clean it out then flood the market with mass goods and things nobody needs at cut rate prices is not the real issue here...

 

The problem isnt 1 guy who can keep up with an industry they built just because you might be entitled to their effort or market share to what they can reliably produce or work the market at rock bottom prices.

 

The problem isnt a small group of people having fun and working hard exploring or mining vs huge mining orgs with completely broken system mechanics raping the resource pool as fast as they can to snuff out their competition.

 

The problem isnt small crews just trying to experience the game and build something of their own vs an army of people creating marketing analytics scripts for them and their cronies to fill holes in the market vs a small pocket industry of people who cant see the trends before the larger orgs drop massive quantities of goods to force people who dont have that capability to lose money they dont really have in the first place.

 

I can keep going but nobody really needs anything as is and even if they did its as cheap as the market bots allow it to be with nothing to take items out of the game beyond the limited number of cores a person or pocket org can put down. The enemy isnt the bogeyman goliath titan of industry lone wolf guy out there destroying this game in every aspect, its the megaorgs who have exploited this game on all cylanders without limits, without reason to fight, and who dont need the massive hoards it things they create since they already won the game and have no reason to fight in this solar system even when TWs come into the game they already got everything during EZmode. They are stockpiling for what comes next to kill off their competition in T2 solar systems since there is likely only 1 jump gate in and 1 jump gate out.

 

If this fake monster rambo solo industrialist supervillian can only do so much damage vs 1000 other people doing the exact same thing regardless of scale in a shallow progression game. Nothing here is special at all its all basic shit tbh with no reason to really do anything in a game with like minimalistic combat, mining, and crafting.

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