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Quick Fixes to make pvp actually work


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Now we know energy and what not is coming.  But that is only one step in an on going balance.  Right now L weapons can still hit the smallest shit in the game, so no need to ever use M weapons.  Also range is huge factor so L core also has that in spades too.

 

- Cross section needs to go further.  Reduce probability even more for ships with smaller cross section. 

 

- Probability of hit needs to be also tied to how much damage is applied.  So if my L railgun has a 60k volley dmg, and I have 50% probability, and I actually land a hit, I should NOT do 100% of my volley damage.  This could be RNG'd to any degree, but something along the lines of 20%-80% and some adjustments based on probs.  100% probability means 100% damage.  

 

- Rework/Reduce voxels HP and resists.  Not a complete "nerf" but definitely lowered in some areas.  Also mix and match some resist "holes" so choosing ammo types can matter, but make it in a way that not 1 or 2 voxels are OP.  Tonight on stream 3 Small core pvp ships went out to fight, on stream.  They shot eachother for 2 hours. No one died.  This is a game above all else.  THREE ships, shooting for hours, and NO ONE DIES is terrible game design.  Fix it.

 

- Remove XS guns from the game.  They are worthless, and will always be worthless.  In space anyway.  Make Small guns be able to be used on XS and S cores.  And with max skills you can get 3 S guns tied to 1 cockpit of certain guns to give those "fighters" a little boost for later gameplay.  Maybe stick to 2 rails and 2 missiles to a cockpit, but 3 for lasers and cannons to aide in their terrible range.

 

- Weapon HP.  Its completely out of whack.  L weapons base hp is around 174k.  M is around 6k or so.  Total garbage.  increase M to around 80k base.  Increase S hp to around 40k base. 

 

- Element Lives in PvP.  L weapons are devastating and should be treated as such.  Use RNG so that when an element is destroyed in pvp, it has a 20% chance of taking 2 lives away from the element instead of 1.  Keep M weapons to always take away 1 life.  Small weapons when they destroy an element have a 20% chance of taking 0 lives away (the element still goes red and needs repair, just no life was reduced off the element count).   This reasoning goes hand in hand with the surgical strike to make it a viable pirate option, and also not too over-powered in its ability to target elements on an enemy ship.

 

- Surgical strike.  Give a reason to sometimes use Small weapons.  Make them able to target actual Elements.  Make a drop-down menu in the gunner seat.  Voxels can also be an option to target.  Use some RNG, so how it would work, is if I choose "adjusters" then when I shoot, and the game attempts to calculate my hits, it will search for adjusters, if found, it has RNG of 50-80% chance to hit an adjuster (based on new talents to train) and the time it misses it picks random like currently is.  Since its the smallest weapon in the game, it wont be "over-powered" but a it now makes S cores a viable option if you bring say 8 to swarm a L capital, and that capital ship only has L weapons and no support.  This leads to more indepth approach at how to shoot/disable ships.  And options for pirates, but also its not over-powered cause the reduced damage and range of Small weapons.  It also makes sense because they are smaller and you need to get closer to your ship to attempt a more precise hit, as opposed to a L railgun shooting a massive round at a ship from almost 2 su away.  M and L weapons would be too "large" for surgical strike, as they leave too big of a damage radius to attempt it.  

 

 

PvP balancing should be ongoing, but as it stands now, L core and L guns are only viable, and no signs of it changing at all, or anytime soon.  If this is how it will be even 12 months from now, you will have a stale game because no one wants to play something where there is only "one way" to play or else you get rolled on.  By making these changes (or any similar) you now make M weapons the "go to" as they well should be.  As they have decent range and dmg, can apply that damage to larger and smaller ships more easily.  By doing this, you also give S a niche reason to be used (as opposed to never right now) and L weapons are more seen as WAR ships trying to do devastating damage, but also big L core capital ships would need some sort of "support" as smaller M cores and S cores could swarm and never get hit, forcing people to think about how they field ships and fleets, and adding more roles to a fleet to maximize their pvp "potential" whether that be pirates, or a war machine looking to annihilate their enemy. 

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1 hour ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Now we know energy and what not is coming.  But that is only one step in an on going balance.  Right now L weapons can still hit the smallest shit in the game, so no need to ever use M weapons.  Also range is huge factor so L core also has that in spades too.

 

- Cross section needs to go further.  Reduce probability even more for ships with smaller cross section. 

 

- Probability of hit needs to be also tied to how much damage is applied.  So if my L railgun has a 60k volley dmg, and I have 50% probability, and I actually land a hit, I should NOT do 100% of my volley damage.  This could be RNG'd to any degree, but something along the lines of 20%-80% and some adjustments based on probs.  100% probability means 100% damage.  

 

- Rework/Reduce voxels HP and resists.  Not a complete "nerf" but definitely lowered in some areas.  Also mix and match some resist "holes" so choosing ammo types can matter, but make it in a way that not 1 or 2 voxels are OP.  Tonight on stream 3 Small core pvp ships went out to fight, on stream.  They shot eachother for 2 hours. No one died.  This is a game above all else.  THREE ships, shooting for hours, and NO ONE DIES is terrible game design.  Fix it.

 

- Remove XS guns from the game.  They are worthless, and will always be worthless.  In space anyway.  Make Small guns be able to be used on XS and S cores.  And with max skills you can get 3 S guns tied to 1 cockpit of certain guns to give those "fighters" a little boost for later gameplay.  Maybe stick to 2 rails and 2 missiles to a cockpit, but 3 for lasers and cannons to aide in their terrible range.

 

- Weapon HP.  Its completely out of whack.  L weapons base hp is around 174k.  M is around 6k or so.  Total garbage.  increase M to around 80k base.  Increase S hp to around 40k base. 

 

- Element Lives in PvP.  L weapons are devastating and should be treated as such.  Use RNG so that when an element is destroyed in pvp, it has a 20% chance of taking 2 lives away from the element instead of 1.  Keep M weapons to always take away 1 life.  Small weapons when they destroy an element have a 20% chance of taking 0 lives away (the element still goes red and needs repair, just no life was reduced off the element count).   This reasoning goes hand in hand with the surgical strike to make it a viable pirate option, and also not too over-powered in its ability to target elements on an enemy ship.

 

- Surgical strike.  Give a reason to sometimes use Small weapons.  Make them able to target actual Elements.  Make a drop-down menu in the gunner seat.  Voxels can also be an option to target.  Use some RNG, so how it would work, is if I choose "adjusters" then when I shoot, and the game attempts to calculate my hits, it will search for adjusters, if found, it has RNG of 50-80% chance to hit an adjuster (based on new talents to train) and the time it misses it picks random like currently is.  Since its the smallest weapon in the game, it wont be "over-powered" but a it now makes S cores a viable option if you bring say 8 to swarm a L capital, and that capital ship only has L weapons and no support.  This leads to more indepth approach at how to shoot/disable ships.  And options for pirates, but also its not over-powered cause the reduced damage and range of Small weapons.  It also makes sense because they are smaller and you need to get closer to your ship to attempt a more precise hit, as opposed to a L railgun shooting a massive round at a ship from almost 2 su away.  M and L weapons would be too "large" for surgical strike, as they leave too big of a damage radius to attempt it.  

 

 

PvP balancing should be ongoing, but as it stands now, L core and L guns are only viable, and no signs of it changing at all, or anytime soon.  If this is how it will be even 12 months from now, you will have a stale game because no one wants to play something where there is only "one way" to play or else you get rolled on.  By making these changes (or any similar) you now make M weapons the "go to" as they well should be.  As they have decent range and dmg, can apply that damage to larger and smaller ships more easily.  By doing this, you also give S a niche reason to be used (as opposed to never right now) and L weapons are more seen as WAR ships trying to do devastating damage, but also big L core capital ships would need some sort of "support" as smaller M cores and S cores could swarm and never get hit, forcing people to think about how they field ships and fleets, and adding more roles to a fleet to maximize their pvp "potential" whether that be pirates, or a war machine looking to annihilate their enemy. 

It's going to take them all of Q1 to get missions in the game, I doubt anything on the scale your talking would be 'quick' to do. Your balancing also does not change the core reason PvP is avoided by the vast majority of the population. 

 

 

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"use some RNG"

No, please don't. There is a reason why people don't like RNG in games and were annoyed by WoW for example. That is why they have rowed back with it.

 

And as the previous speaker said: 

PvP is avoided in first place because you loose items and 6 hours of mining. In this game stage you only lose and gain nothing from it. No territory, no conquest or anything else. It's just for "fun" - So you mine to destroy your stuff in the end.

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1 hour ago, SirJohn85 said:

"use some RNG"

No, please don't. There is a reason why people don't like RNG in games and were annoyed by WoW for example. That is why they have rowed back with it.

 

And as the previous speaker said: 

PvP is avoided in first place because you loose items and 6 hours of mining. In this game stage you only lose and gain nothing from it. No territory, no conquest or anything else. It's just for "fun" - So you mine to destroy your stuff in the end.

so obviously you are correct SOME people avoid PvP but that doesnt mean it isnt happening and changes can be implemented or worked on. also Missions should be bringing some PvP missions and possibilities in the game.... as well asteroids are around the corner so continued advancement in the concept of PvP is needed. 

Also just a heads up RNG is already in the game in the context of PvP if you actually did it you would know that...

I would like to add that one of the greatest improvements to PvP will be Server stability. Lag is a major setback in terms of PvP as it can be attributed to cause of misses when you have near 100% probs i should not be missing 30+ shots in a row

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Thats one of the biggest issues, everyone has the "there is nothing to fight over" mind set, and i get that. There has got to be some way that puts the focus on all areas of the solar system. As of now, everyone is just like ill stay in the safe zone. Money is so easy to be made in this game, and people are so scared to lose things, when u literally can just go mine for a few hours and have money to replace anything u ever lose. The catering to the " im going to warp everywere i go" play style can only go on for so long. Only having one side of gameplay that people enjoy the game wont last long u got to be able to cover all basis. The smaller weapons are literally poinless atm which makes it hard for a small org/solo player to just go spend 10 mil on a xs/s core pvp ship and go mess around and have fun. I watch 3 small core pvp ships have a fun who cares if we die fight last night. After a hour and a half of fighting they had to stop fighting cause everyone ran out of ammo. Same as L cores the voxel health makes it impossible to ever "win" a fight ammo is always a issue. Nerf voxel health is a huge change that needs to happen. Everyone just plasters there pvp ships with gold and unless u have unlimited storage make a pvp fight even more pointless than it already is. 

 

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EXACTLY... NQ was at the Talemai fight watching (or so they said in the streams lol) i mean there were 2 true good PvP ships there that got cored and that was because the pilots/crew were new (no shade being thrown just the truth) that fight lasted for an hour and a half 4 of the ATOM ships took ONLY voxel damage and then lost lives on adjusters and brakes... 

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new game, who dis? i cant do things because i suck. fight me

2 minutes ago, TheRose said:

EXACTLY... NQ was at the Talemai fight watching (or so they said in the streams lol) i mean there were 2 true good PvP ships there that got cored and that was because the pilots/crew were new (no shade being thrown just the truth) that fight lasted for an hour and a half 4 of the ATOM ships took ONLY voxel damage and then lost lives on adjusters and brakes... 

 

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Just now, FuriousPuppy said:

one thing I would agree on is server stability, Desync is brutal when you are trying to kill someone. and can we adress gold as the meta material? in Alpha it was marble... can we get a material thats sci fi or just steel or something?? since when is my gold jewelry stronger than the metal in tanks?

FACTS Titanium should be the best and gold should be used in high tier weapons and engines 

 

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13 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

and can we adress gold as the meta material? in Alpha it was marble... can we get a material thats sci fi or just steel or something?? since when is my gold jewelry stronger than the metal in tanks?

The voxel meta is driven by the fact that every voxel type has the same HP per kg of material, which makes the densest materials with the most resists the best for armor.  Which is garbage because the value of a lot of materials is that they are stronger for less mass (ie titanium).

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12 hours ago, TheRose said:

so obviously you are correct SOME people avoid PvP but that doesnt mean it isnt happening and changes can be implemented or worked on. also Missions should be bringing some PvP missions and possibilities in the game.... as well asteroids are around the corner so continued advancement in the concept of PvP is needed. 

Also just a heads up RNG is already in the game in the context of PvP if you actually did it you would know that...

I would like to add that one of the greatest improvements to PvP will be Server stability. Lag is a major setback in terms of PvP as it can be attributed to cause of misses when you have near 100% probs i should not be missing 30+ shots in a row

So if I read your follow up post correctly, 2 ships did pvp.... So I would just turn your sentence around and say "some people do pvp". The majority will still ignore the PvP zone in this current game stage. I have not heard a montage of a video or a message where many ships were involved and fought for something meaningful.

 

My point in saying this is not to criticise existing lock and fire mechanics but to address the suggestions that so much RNG in many improvements are desired from op in this post. But surely you would have seen that if you had read the suggestions. 

 

Neither a bounty system nor in any form was it announced that the PvP zone will be expanded. So if you want to mine, you will want to continue to avoid it. The universe is big. There is no reason to move into the zone if you don't have to.

 

My best bet is that nothing big is scheduled in this direction before the territory warfare update. I think then we can talk about it one more time.

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12 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

So if I read your follow up post correctly, 2 ships did pvp.... So I would just turn your sentence around and say "some people do pvp". The majority will still ignore the PvP zone in this current game stage. I have not heard a montage of a video or a message where many ships were involved and fought for something meaningful.

 

My point in saying this is not to criticise existing lock and fire mechanics but to address the suggestions that so much RNG in many improvements are desired from op in this post. But surely you would have seen that if you had read the suggestions. 

 

Neither a bounty system nor in any form was it announced that the PvP zone will be expanded. So if you want to mine, you will want to continue to avoid it. The universe is big. There is no reason to move into the zone if you don't have to.

 

My best bet is that nothing big is scheduled in this direction before the territory warfare update. I think then we can talk about it one more time.

Actually what i have proposed reduced RNG.  Right now its 100% RNG. You lock on a ship, fire, and its RNG where and what hits.  You would know that if you actually pvp'd.  And the smaller weapons are completely trash and NQ has gave us no hints on changing that, and adding a power system wont effect how L weapons are better.  My L weapons have hit the smallest warp shuttle in pvp before that had the lowest possible cross section you can get barring just throwing a seat on a core.  And it only took a couple shots and it was dead.  Something needs to be done to bring S and M weapons into line.

 

Second, I know the "why" to pvp is lacking too.  This post is directly talking about what happens when pvp actually happens.  Its already been discussed to death that 100% of the content in the game is in the safe zone currently, and that NQ said they are waiting on territory warfare to be done before opening things up, and in the mean time looks like we might get some asteroids in the pvp zone as a "reason" to go and engage in pvp.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Actually what i have proposed reduced RNG. 

Then I read again your op... highlighted some word in the quote...

 

Quote

- Probability of hit needs to be also tied to how much damage is applied.  So if my L railgun has a 60k volley dmg, and I have 50% probability, and I actually land a hit, I should NOT do 100% of my volley damage.  This could be RNG'd to any degree, but something along the lines of 20%-80% and some adjustments based on probs.  100% probability means 100% damage.  

 

Quote

- Element Lives in PvP.  L weapons are devastating and should be treated as such.  Use RNG so that when an element is destroyed in pvp,

Quote

- Surgical strike.  Give a reason to sometimes use Small weapons.  Make them able to target actual Elements.  Make a drop-down menu in the gunner seat.  Voxels can also be an option to target.  Use some RNG, so how it would work,

Didn't think I'd need a 2nd post to explain that. But a small problem, we take the time. After all, we are a helping community. Insight and enlightenment sometimes take time.

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2 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

Then I read again your op... highlighted some word in the quote...

 

Didn't think I'd need a 2nd post to explain that. But a small problem, we take the time. After all, we are a helping community. Insight and enlightenment sometimes take time.

PvP is currently 100% RNG. you would know that if you actually pvp'd.

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15 hours ago, Xennial said:

It's going to take them all of Q1 to get missions in the game, I doubt anything on the scale your talking would be 'quick' to do. Your balancing also does not change the core reason PvP is avoided by the vast majority of the population. 

 

 

Actually it does - it would make it more fun and accessible, which is a vast portion of why it is avoided by most players.  In many games, people PvP - and grind to afford it - because it is enjoyable.  Some of us dare to dream of that being a thing here too. 

In addition, I suspect you have also confused PvP with Piracy - I get that its confusing, sort of like veterans day and memorial day - but it helps if you look for context.  L-Cores, making them vulnerable, and diversifying strategy is not about piracy.

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1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

PvP is currently 100% RNG. you would know that if you actually pvp'd.

Quote

I would like to add that one of the greatest improvements to PvP will be Server stability. Lag is a major setback in terms of PvP as it can be attributed to cause of misses when you have near 100% probs i should not be missing 30+ shots in a row

And yet you suggest that you want even more RNG, as I highlighted things in the quote. So let's make it 120% RNG. But as the other user suggested, server performance seems to be the problem, that he fails to hit at least 30 shots in a row.  One of you two seems not to understand what the cause is. Is it now RNG or Server stability? 

 

I mean, I personally don't care, but it's amusing how you deviate from the problem to people and ignore the actual issue and try to defarm and discredit people. 

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2 minutes ago, SirJohn85 said:

And yet you suggest that you want even more RNG, as I highlighted things in the quote. So let's make it 120% RNG. But as the other user suggested, server performance seems to be the problem, that he fails to hit at least 30 shots in a row.  One of you two seems not to understand what the cause is. Is it now RNG or Server stability? 

 

I mean, I personally don't care, but it's amusing how you deviate from the problem to people and ignore the actual issue and try to defarm and discredit people. 

You, Sir, you are being disingenuous.  If you think there is an important issue to talk about that is missing from the OP's post - please do so.  If you have something to offer on how RNG works now, please do.  Instead, you are - to be blunt - right on the line of playing passive aggressive forums games and doing exactly the things you suggest yourself.  I am sure that as a good knight of the realm you are above such things now that they are brought to your attention and instead will offer something useful, yes?

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11 minutes ago, Copperwire said:

You, Sir, you are being disingenuous.  If you think there is an important issue to talk about that is missing from the OP's post - please do so.  If you have something to offer on how RNG works now, please do.  Instead, you are - to be blunt - right on the line of playing passive aggressive forums games and doing exactly the things you suggest yourself.  I am sure that as a good knight of the realm you are above such things now that they are brought to your attention and instead will offer something useful, yes?

I am only reacting to the tone that has been set in this discussion. And not by me. Here's the quote that started it:

Quote

Also just a heads up RNG is already in the game in the context of PvP if you actually did it you would know that...

I have mentioned my points about the bounty system and asteroid mining and that other mmorpgs have reduced the rng. Here is even a map of the solar system, why it is meaningless if you do not expand the PvP zone. Here a friendly reminder, how the current map looks like.

 

But thank you for your instruction.

 

map.png

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Yesterday we destroyed the ship, we destroyed the core, the ship stopped. The pilot didn't die, why? After the destruction of the core unit, the crew always died, now this does not happen. The pilot just got out of his seat and started removing loot from containers. Why should I be a pirate? 

Yesterday we were chasing a ship. We shot at him and hit him. The pilot of this ship left the game (logoff), his ship stopped immediately. We started to slow down, then this player came back and his speed immediately returned and became 30.000 km/h, but we already stopped.... NQ, fix please!

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This lack of PvP is starting to have very negative effects on the game's population.
We are only a small group whose hearts remain motivated and present in the game but on the other hand, it is impossible to retain new players and our allied gunners for our battleships ... The hemorrhage in each other's ranks really begins to make feel.
In some groups, there is talk of a loss of 80 to 85% of active members.

More than ever, we need this kind of balance proposed by the author and especially a reason to fight.

The game hasn't had any real gameplay additions since the mid-alpha phase.

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