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Belispeak

Could a Decentralised City Function?

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A social experiment:

 

Could players live and work together in a city that has no government, no organisation with complete control?

 

What if each territory unit in a city was 100% controlled by a different organisation?

 

What if we built a city in DU based on an anarcho-capitalist model?

 

In an anarcho-capitalist society, law enforcementcourts and all other security services would be operated by privately funded competitors selected by consumers rather than centrally through confiscatory taxationMoney, along with all other goods and services, would be privately and competitively provided in an open market

 

 

whether or not this would work in real life aside, I think this would be a far more enjoyable way to play the game. Not only would it be more enjoyable it would be a lot easier for the city to function as a whole. It would function like a natural ecosystem where things just happen naturally between different organisations, once you take a step back and view the city from outside you would find an extremely complex web of mutually beneficial relationships. It boils down to this, many players making much smaller individual decisions would be more enjoyable and more efficient than a select few elite members of one organisation calling the shots.

 

Thoughts?

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There are two and only two ways that any economy can be organized. One is by freedom and voluntary choice—the way of the market. The other is by force and dictation—the way of the State. Good to see we can experiment the first one in a metaverse called DU. Our government-centric worldview will hopefully change soon.

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On the other hand, people want action, hence the fact that nearly every org has security positions listed. Even with this highly militarized society, trolls griefers gankers err I mean people who take advantage of gameplay mechanics in a new and emergent way will be more common than in real life due to the low cost of dying compared to real life, especially since people won't be able to man security positions 24/7.  

 

Other implementations of anarchy, such as EVE Online, Ark Survival Evolved, 2b2t, and Somalia have worked out to varying degrees of success, but one thing is clear. In order for markets to function, there needs to be security, stability, and a peaceful way to handle conflicts - or I can bomb my market competition or that dude who pisses me off and call it a day. At that point, we no longer have markets, we have warfare.

 

So when can I get my A-10 delivered in the mail?

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8 hours ago, 0something0 said:

On the other hand, people want action, hence the fact that nearly every org has security positions listed. Even with this highly militarized society, trolls griefers gankers err I mean people who take advantage of gameplay mechanics in a new and emergent way will be more common than in real life due to the low cost of dying compared to real life, especially since people won't be able to man security positions 24/7.  

 

Other implementations of anarchy, such as EVE Online, Ark Survival Evolved, 2b2t, and Somalia have worked out to varying degrees of success, but one thing is clear. In order for markets to function, there needs to be security, stability, and a peaceful way to handle conflicts - or I can bomb my market competition or that dude who pisses me off and call it a day. At that point, we no longer have markets, we have warfare.

 

So when can I get my A-10 delivered in the mail?

I plan to create this city in a sanctuary zone to mitigate the risk of bombing or warfare. If players are causing havoc we can just place them on an economic blacklist and exclude them from being able to trade or restrict their access. Thoughts? 

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On 6/3/2019 at 8:11 AM, rothbardian said:

There are two and only two ways that any economy can be organized. One is by freedom and voluntary choice—the way of the market. The other is by force and dictation—the way of the State. Good to see we can experiment the first one in a metaverse called DU. Our government-centric worldview will hopefully change soon.

But people should make THIS voluntary choice because I SAID SO. haha Jokes.

 

I really think DU will be a great case study that could give food for thought IRL

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3 hours ago, Belispeak said:

I plan to create this city in a sanctuary zone to mitigate the risk of bombing or warfare. If players are causing havoc we can just place them on an economic blacklist and exclude them from being able to trade or restrict their access. Thoughts? 

The problem is most of the resources to support your city and its market will have to come from the outside. What will you do if someone on your economic blacklist starts wiping your supply chain? You don't need alarge force to stage raids on supplies driving up your internal prices and making the city no longer viable. I reckon a single org can manage that depending on the scale of your city.

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57 minutes ago, duckimus said:

The problem is most of the resources to support your city and its market will have to come from the outside. What will you do if someone on your economic blacklist starts wiping your supply chain? You don't need alarge force to stage raids on supplies driving up your internal prices and making the city no longer viable. I reckon a single org can manage that depending on the scale of your city.

This is where market makers and markets will do its amazing job to supply city needs, no matter who is blacklisted or banned. When there is liquid markets no more supply problems.

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12 minutes ago, rothbardian said:

This is where market makers and markets will do its amazing job to supply city needs, no matter who is blacklisted or banned. When there is liquid markets no more supply problems. 

Not sure you got my point, I'll try again.

 

So say I want to buy 1000L of rocketfuel. That is made from stuff, that stuff has to be mined, transformed into fuel, and then transported to your market depots.

 

At any point in the chain from mining to getting it to your city a person can slow down or cut off the supply entirely and cause the prices for rocket fuel to go way up.

 

So now I start doing my business where rocket fuel is cheaper. However me being at the other market place makes spending my money on other products there more economically viable too. This could kill your city.

 

Put a few people on that blacklist, and if they decide to make a concerted effort could can very well turn into will.

 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, duckimus said:

Not sure you got my point, I'll try again.

 

So say I want to buy 1000L of rocketfuel. That is made from stuff, that stuff has to be mined, transformed into fuel, and then transported to your market depots.

 

At any point in the chain from mining to getting it to your city a person can slow down or cut off the supply entirely and cause the prices for rocket fuel to go way up.

 

So now I start doing my business where rocket fuel is cheaper. However me being at the other market place makes spending my money on other products there more economically viable too. This could kill your city.

 

Put a few people on that blacklist, and if they decide to make a concerted effort could can very well turn into will.

 

 

 

 

I think rothbardian means that in this scenario someone else would just import rocketfuel and undercut the trade embargo. Things would balance out over time. Although I cannot speak for them.

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1 hour ago, duckimus said:

At any point in the chain from mining to getting it to your city a person can slow down or cut off the supply entirely and cause the prices for rocket fuel to go way up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

What happens when Exxon Mobil cut off the supply entirely? Chevron,Total, Royal Dutch Shell or BP takes the place. As @Belispeak correctly pointed out liquid market balances everything on the supply side. Your assumption was based on cartel things, and yes you would be totally correct if we operate on a totalitarian state.

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Speculation: What if someone just puts your 'sanctuary' under 'siege'.  They can't blast you inside the zone per se... but what if they could put a flotilla above it and prevent anyone from moving in or out of it.  How would you get supplies in, or people out for that matter.  We can 'guess' all we want to see how it's going to work, but as a long time Eve Online player... I can assure you that if there exists a mechanic by which they can stomp on you, they'll use it if they think they can get away with it.  

 

My tactic in Eve was to make sure they either couldn't catch me with my pants down... and that meant one of several things... 1) Timing.  Not being where they expected you on your own terms, 2) Superior Firepower when needed... blast your way out, or 3) Superior Speed when you needed it, and lastly, 4) Allies that would support you (typically negotiated through wheeling, dealing and diplomacy.  Nothing is foolproof, because if you create something you 'think' is foolproof, a bigger fool will come along and prove you incorrect.  Plan for everything you can think of.

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51 minutes ago, Lachenlaud said:

Speculation: What if someone just puts your 'sanctuary' under 'siege'.  They can't blast you inside the zone per se... but what if they could put a flotilla above it and prevent anyone from moving in or out of it.  How would you get supplies in, or people out for that matter.  We can 'guess' all we want to see how it's going to work, but as a long time Eve Online player... I can assure you that if there exists a mechanic by which they can stomp on you, they'll use it if they think they can get away with it.  

 

My tactic in Eve was to make sure they either couldn't catch me with my pants down... and that meant one of several things... 1) Timing.  Not being where they expected you on your own terms, 2) Superior Firepower when needed... blast your way out, or 3) Superior Speed when you needed it, and lastly, 4) Allies that would support you (typically negotiated through wheeling, dealing and diplomacy.  Nothing is foolproof, because if you create something you 'think' is foolproof, a bigger fool will come along and prove you incorrect.  Plan for everything you can think of.

In this situation I would engage their enemies in diplomacy and organise a strike where they least expect it. Spreading out their forces too thinly for their flotilla to be effective. That being said I see where you are coming from, if a feature that can be exploited I don't blame them for doing it, it could become a downfall depending on how you set them up.

I sometimes fail to grasp the scale and complexity of this game as I've never played an MMO before. Some Bismarck Style Diplomacy may be what is needed!

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20 hours ago, duckimus said:

At any point in the chain from mining to getting it to your city a person can slow down or cut off the supply entirely and cause the prices for rocket fuel to go way up.

 

 

 

 

 

Once one strong competitor arises to challenge it, the cartel is doomed. For as the firms in the cartel are bound by production quotas, they must watch new competitors expand and take away sales from them at an accelerating rate. As a result, the cartel must break up under the pressure of the newcomers’ competition.

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21 hours ago, duckimus said:

At any point in the chain from mining to getting it to your city a person can slow down or cut off the supply entirely and cause the prices for rocket fuel to go way up.

This is a good reason for other fuel suppliers to feed the market, as they can earn more here now. 

21 hours ago, duckimus said:

So now I start doing my business where rocket fuel is cheaper. However me being at the other market place makes spending my money on other products there more economically viable too. This could kill your city.

Or you can start doing fuel business on your own and decrease actual fuel price for your self as well as sell some fuel on market with high prices ;)

 

 

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On 6/5/2019 at 11:24 AM, Miamato said:

This is a good reason for other fuel suppliers to feed the market, as they can earn more here now. 

Or you can start doing fuel business on your own and decrease actual fuel price for your self as well as sell some fuel on market with high prices ;)

 

 

Even if you cannot profit from it you can sell fuel much cheaper and make your profit on another, non contested item. In general, people will adapt or die.

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On 6/9/2019 at 1:06 AM, Belispeak said:

Even if you cannot profit from it you can sell fuel much cheaper and make your profit on another, non contested item. In general, people will adapt or die.

I doubt it will be possible to make a blockade that no one can pass through. It's not EVE where you can almost instantly warp to any point of system. So for true blockade you'll need a lot ships to cover all ways to approach a base. Also 24/7 camping is not that funny if no real strategic is involved. 

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3 hours ago, Miamato said:

I doubt it will be possible to make a blockade that no one can pass through. It's not EVE where you can almost instantly warp to any point of system. So for true blockade you'll need a lot ships to cover all ways to approach a base. Also 24/7 camping is not that funny if no real strategic is involved. 

It will turn into a game of attrition for the attackers, which will be deadly if you focus on short term profits. If it is a longterm game you are playing blockading will be more costly than the rewards gained from blockading a city. Blockading will be a bad business decision. 

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13 hours ago, Belispeak said:

It will turn into a game of attrition for the attackers, which will be deadly if you focus on short term profits. If it is a longterm game you are playing blockading will be more costly than the rewards gained from blockading a city. Blockading will be a bad business decision. 

Totally agree with it. I've taken part in one big blockage in EvE. It was one week of 24/7 keeping enemy captured and trying not to let them escape. Not the funniest experience :)

So most likely raiding caravans and salvaging enemy bases will be more profitable and time efficient.

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I even dare to say the whole raiding will be inefficient, probably the most efficient way of playing will be to just go out and mine stuff yourself, or craft yourself and trade it.

PvP can only be more lucrative when the profit outwages the input in time and resources. that said, anything designed to be hard to capture and cheap to build will not be an efficient target. Same goes for ships, when you are sure to be overtaken or hacked, go to the nearest gravity well at full speed and make sure to ram a planet or moon at full speed, the value of your totally destroyed ship will be alot less then few minutes before. Maybe not the best option for yourself, but its better to loose a non valued destroyed item then to just handover a fully functioning ship that can be used to attack your other property.

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I think the biggest problem with cities/hubs in DU will be how to organize it, the whole thing will be a challenge. Who owns it the org, the people building their stuff and so on? Sprawl will be an enormous problem, people will be drawn to the City and build a box somewhere (without bothering with the creators plan) and then abandoning it. Is it doable? Certainly but it will require incredible organization skills and tenacity. In Landmark we did some big cooperative builds in the end and they where very hard on the people who organized them and volunteer burn out did happen and those things was simple little things compared to what we are talking about here. I think we will see many failed City projects just on the basic "getting things built" level then add trade, security, economy and war to that.  It will be interesting to see.

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On 6/8/2019 at 10:06 PM, Belispeak said:

Even if you cannot profit from it you can sell fuel much cheaper and make your profit on another, non contested item. In general, people will adapt or die.

Economic theory and history both tell us that maintaining a cartel, for any length of time, is almost impossible on the free market, as the firms who restrict their supply are challenged by cartel members who secretly cut their prices in order to expand their share of the market as well as by new producers who enter thefray enticed by their higher profits attained by the cartelists.  

 

In addition to this, one cartel or one firm could not own all the means of production in the economy, because it could not calculate prices and allocate factors in a rational manner.

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