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Orbital Mechanics

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What do you guys think about orbital mechanics and other realistic physics elements? I personally think it would be cool to do a Hommen Transfer in my custom-built starship and sneaking up on enemy ships where they don't expect it. I suppose it would be cool to have other realism features, but this isn't that kind of game. Still, orbital mechanics are cool. 

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As I asked NQ in the devdiary, we don't know yet if those orbits DU will have are automatic (reach escape velocity and start orbiting just in a predefined orbit (=layer) around the planet) or kind of like in KSP.

 

A Hohmann transfer is not possible when there's only one layer of orbit around a planet, as you need the orbital trajectory burn to reach orbit, then the first escape burn to elongate your orbit to (in the best scenario) the farthest possible apoapsis AND FROM THERE another escape burn to slingshot yourself to the other planet.

 

The farther away the apoapsis, the slower you are at that point (possibly only a few m/s) so the less delta v you need to transfer to another orbit.

 

I would LOVE to have such mechanics ingame, but as I said I'm not sure they will go for this, as it introduces other huge problems

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@Lethys there's not 1 layer, the game works with physics already, you can orbit at the altitude you want. They may choose to create an element to set you on predefined orbits, for people that don't know how to do that, but that doesn't mean that will be the only way. To orbit you just need planet gravity and a construct moving, they don't need to do anything, it comes with physics

 

The question is, what if we go offline, does the construct keep moving even if the map is not loaded? There'll be attriction in space? May lag, synch or whatever related to the server kick out a construct from an orbit in the long term?

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I don't think KSP-type mechanics would add much to the game. Anyway with magic future engines you don't need to worry about saving fuel by doing transfers and gravity assists.

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@Lethys there's not 1 layer, the game works with physics already, you can orbit at the altitude you want. They may choose to create an element to set you on predefined orbits, for people that don't know how to do that, but that doesn't mean that will be the only way. To orbit you just need planet gravity and a construct moving, they don't need to do anything, it comes with physics

 

The question is, what if we go offline, does the construct keep moving even if the map is not loaded? There'll be attriction in space? May lag, synch or whatever related to the server kick out a construct from an orbit in the long term?

One layer, many, or 6. Doesn't matter at all. From the looks of it you only need escape velocity and reaching a certain height. That's it. No suborbital trajectory needed. (March and April dev diary videos). Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with this simplified version but real orbits (as asked here)are another story.

 

And on a more general matter:

I would love to have real orbits but you introduce extremely hard mechanics with such a thing in a mmo (if even possible). Only think of a rendezvous in space, docking ships, meeting a friend, getting to another planet, ....

 

It would be cool though if you could do slingshots and use gravity assisted turns plus aerobraking to get somewhere far with a lowtier engine. If you can't do it, wait for the hightier engine to unlock via skills but if you're competent enough , you can make it work with a lowtier too while using game mechanics - just an idea

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As I asked NQ in the devdiary, we don't know yet if those orbits DU will have are automatic (reach escape velocity and start orbiting just in a predefined orbit (=layer) around the planet) or kind of like in KSP.

 

A Hohmann transfer is not possible when there's only one layer of orbit around a planet, as you need the orbital trajectory burn to reach orbit, then the first escape burn to elongate your orbit to (in the best scenario) the farthest possible apoapsis AND FROM THERE another escape burn to slingshot yourself to the other planet.

 

The farther away the apoapsis, the slower you are at that point (possibly only a few m/s) so the less delta v you need to transfer to another orbit.

 

I would LOVE to have such mechanics ingame, but as I said I'm not sure they will go for this, as it introduces other huge problems

I mean, we can add some sort of a loading zone(like in KSP) where the object orbits and the voxels are rendered but it acts like a point(with the characteristics of the object) until there is an object a certain distance from the primary object.. Yes, the game is supposed to be Single-Shard, but I don't think this would be such a huge problem. I'm fine with Patched Conics orbits, and have automated calculations doing it all for you.

 

Also, I wanted to bring another point to the game: will the engines run on handwavium or have actual rocket-sciency stuff to it(Specific Impulse, radiation(if nuclear), heat generation, that sort of thing.

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I mean, we can add some sort of a loading zone(like in KSP) where the object orbits and the voxels are rendered but it acts like a point(with the characteristics of the object) until there is an object a certain distance from the primary object.. Yes, the game is supposed to be Single-Shard, but I don't think this would be such a huge problem. I'm fine with Patched Conics orbits, and have automated calculations doing it all for you.

 

Also, I wanted to bring another point to the game: will the engines run on handwavium or have actual rocket-sciency stuff to it(Specific Impulse, radiation(if nuclear), heat generation, that sort of thing.

Since I am no game dev nor do I have the ability to understand (even remotely) game engines or how certain things are programmed: I have no clue what you're talking about.

 

On the second part I agree though: would be nice to know

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I mean, we can add some sort of a loading zone(like in KSP) where the object orbits and the voxels are rendered but it acts like a point(with the characteristics of the object) until there is an object a certain distance from the primary object.. Yes, the game is supposed to be Single-Shard, but I don't think this would be such a huge problem. I'm fine with Patched Conics orbits, and have automated calculations doing it all for you.

 

Also, I wanted to bring another point to the game: will the engines run on handwavium or have actual rocket-sciency stuff to it(Specific Impulse, radiation(if nuclear), heat generation, that sort of thing.

Each planet is more or less a micro-service or an instance inside a larger server - the star system, which is part of the entire server. Each sever-system has a server-cluster that composes it in cases of stress. The game is continuous as far as interpolating coordinates when entering and exiting planets and systems (no Empyrion witchcraft with flat "planets", it's why NQ ditched Unity for Ungine 2 , a totally different game engine ).

 

Unigne 2 has all the different componets in its libraries for all sorts of spaceship associated or physics related formulas - Unigine 2, unlike Unity, is used by Russian Aerospace companies to simulate spaceship flights. Go figure why NQ chose it.

 

I tricked you, it's because of its tesselation techniques.

 

However, as far as gameplay features like radiation, heat, etcetera, what we know so far is, planets have atmospheric density and temperatures associated with them and the game's devs have a "spheres of influence" mentality for damage in combat with an inverse square formula for the tappering of the effect. That means they can use it for heat emissions / radiation.

Does that mean heat is in the works and by extension radiation? I don't know, but they sure as heck can do it and very easily, since the game uses the Actor model for its programming, which means it all comes down to "predetermined" actions, so it's not a "what would happen if the radiation was to not sync with a ship's movement". It won't sync-off, that's practically why the Devs went with the Actor model. It keeps track of "what will happen if radiation was to explode here" in a database and pulls the result off when the question is asked, while normal CSP (Communicating Sequential Processes) are the kind of thing that makes Space Engineers the "special" case of exploding rotors it is.

 

 

So to possibly give you an answer, given the game is going for EMULATION not SIMULATION, a thing like a Patched Conics Approximation is possible, but to a lesser extend - and with a twist. This is why Lua is there also, the scripting language that is meant to be used for parabolic flights (but don't tell anyone it's there for that reason, most guys think it's there for making Terminators or some shit).

 

So, if you like parabolic flights, find someone who can script in Lua and knows what a Fibonacci ratio is. Cause, you know, otherwise you gonna have a bad time.

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I'd like to point out that parabolic flight isn't necessary when you can travel at 10C.

 

Lets use the latest devdiary as an example. They traveled between two planets in 15 minutes. IF the planets were using orbital mechanics, they wouldnt have shifted far enough to justify plotting a parabolic course.

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I'd like to point out that parabolic flight isn't necessary when you can travel at 10C.

 

Lets use the latest devdiary as an example. They traveled between two planets in 15 minutes. IF the planets were using orbital mechanics, they wouldnt have shifted far enough to justify plotting a parabolic course.

You leaps in logic always amaze me.

 

At 2c a trip from Mars to Earth would take 15 minutes. And given the planet they go to is a  sort-of gold world with thin atmoshpere (look at the atmospheric density on the video wink-wink ) it means the planet is close enough to the star to have water to turn into ice but not enough exposure inside a Goldilocke zone to be a golden world. Thus, the planet they go to, is at approximation, the equivalnt of Mars. You know, a 2c drive would be excellent for a small craft like the one on the video, an clearly affordable for its powergrid.

 

Now, please, do tell me where you pulled the 10c speed out of. My guess is thin air, but do humor my curiosity good sir.

 

Also, will you Warp right into a landing zone? Otherwise, you better have Lua scripts to pla na perfect coruse to the LZ if you don';t wanna bother landing it manually. Please, do explain the warp onto the LZ part of your reasoning though kind sir.

 

Parabolic flights can serve many purposes.

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I was thinking more about the tactical applications of orbital mechanics when I first posted it. The improved orbits also add new quirks to space stations and as someone above me said, getting to places with low-tiered ships.

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The game is continuous as far as interpolating coordinates when entering and exiting planets and systems (no Empyrion witchcraft with flat "planets", it's why NQ ditched Unity for Ungine 2 , a totally different game engine ).

 

Unigne 2 has all the different componets in its libraries for all sorts of spaceship associated or physics related formulas - Unigine 2, unlike Unity, is used by Russian Aerospace companies to simulate spaceship flights. Go figure why NQ chose it.

Quick note, sorry for double-posting. KSP uses Unity.

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You leaps in logic always amaze me.

 

Now, please, do tell me where you pulled the 10c speed out of. My guess is thin air, but do humor my curiosity good sir.

 

 

I took your previous statement of 8C and rounded up.

 

:P

 

If you remember, in a previous thread I said I would prefer speed limited to 15-20C depending on scale. You said 8C. I thought 10C was a good compromise.

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But consider our real life solar system.

 

It takes 5.3 hours for light to reach Pluto from the sun.

 

Traveling 1C would be slow and boring in game time, but do you honestly think Pluto would have shifted enough in 5 hours to justify parabolic flight?

 

A half second course correction would be all thats needed at that speed.

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I took your previous statement of 8C and rounded up.

 

:P

 

If you remember, in a previous thread I said I would prefer speed limited to 15-20C depending on scale. You said 8C. I thought 10C was a good compromise.

I said 8c was a max number given by JC.

 

You won't an 8c drive on a star-fighter, not without that starfighter being the equivalent of a Ferrari in cost.

 

Just saying, realistic economy.

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Subluminal flight WOULD require a parabolic course IF the pilot was stupid enough to drop out of FTL at too great a distance.

 

Yeah, Im gonna take a trip from NY, to LA but Im landing in KC and walking the rest of the way.

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And this thread is about orbital mechanics. I've denonstrated that parabolic flight is not needed at FTL speeds. (Even 1C)

 

My point is "why waste development hours on a mechanic that would rarely be seen or used by players?"

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And this thread is about orbital mechanics. I've denonstrated that parabolic flight is not needed at FTL speeds. (Even 1C)

 

My point is "why waste development hours on a mechanic that would rarely be seen or used by players?"

You don't get it. Parabolic flights happen in-game regardless. Gravity = what causes parabolic flights. There is gravity are-game, and there is aerodynamic profiles (latest DevDiary of April).

 

Lua scripts can take care of the rest. You are telling people they are stupid for wanting not have shisp that don't waste fuels on trying to "air-brake" here.

 

You know what costs less fuel? A parabolic flight.

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Subluminal flight WOULD require a parabolic course IF the pilot was stupid enough to drop out of FTL at too great a distance.

 

Yeah, Im gonna take a trip from NY, to LA but Im landing in KC and walking the rest of the way.

Do you know what happens when you don't drop out of FTL before reaching a stargate?

 

You get farmed by smart pirates like me that will be waiting you right on point. 

 

Do you know who's smart? A person that warps at a 200 km ping off a point.

 

Welcoem to the real world. People like me are cunning like that.

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Do you know what happens when you don't drop out of FTL before reaching a stargate?

 

You get farmed by smart pirates like me that will be waiting you right on point.

 

Do you know who's smart? A person that warps at a 200 km ping off a point.

 

Welcoem to the real world. People like me are cunning like that.

Which is it Twerk?

 

Players come in too close at FTL speeds and cant land in an LZ...

 

Or they drop out of FTL too far away and get ganked by you.

 

You've argued both sides of the argument, because you have a beef with the person you're talking to.

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Which is it Twerk?

 

Players come in too close at FTL speeds and cant land in an LZ...

 

Or they drop out of FTL too far away and get ganked by you.

 

You've argued both sides of the argument, because you have a beef with the person you're talking to.

You know that there's being playful, and being trollish.

 

I did tell you the example of a stargate on what happens if you try to warp to 0. I won't end well for you. If people know where you gonna land, they'll bewaitign for you like a pack of wolves - which is what it's called in EVE, a wolf-pack, it's when ships wait on less that stellar individuals who warp to 0 on points.

 

Warping to a planet and warping to a stargate are the same. And even better, NQ plans on introducing interdiction bubbles (Kickstarter AMA) to tackle ships off warp and / or prevent warps within that sphere. You are free to warp right into one. Some people need to learn the hard way why you gotta check both ways when you cross the street.

 

Like all the nooblords of high-sec in EVE, you need to learn the hard way why "warping to 0 km" on a target ,is not the fastest way to travel, especially if you got no idea how to scan ahead of you before a warp.

 

So far you assume distances you pull out of your rear, while I provide sources on relevance of times involved. I provide factual evidence of why your way of thinking is flawed, but do keep going, You just don't know when to stop.

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"Subluminal" covers a HUGE range of speeds.

 

Your example of 200km can be crossed in a fraction of a second at sub-light speeds.

 

Exactly what speed would you like to argue your point? So we can accurately continue this discussion.

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"Subluminal" covers a HUGE range of speeds.

 

Your example of 200km can be crossed in a fraction of a second at sub-light speeds.

 

Exactly what speed would you like to argue your point? So we can accurately continue this discussion.

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