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Kurock

Taking loot to the cleaners

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Finally a counterargument. :)

You make disenchanting sound like a bad thing. :P Call it what it is: Removing tags.

Soulbound is again unnecessary hyperbole (though, to be fair, that is what the current unfinished RDMS system effectively is). The only soulbound items should be Quanta (that's the money in DU) and master blueprints. The rest can be hacked and cleaned.

As for pirates complaining about having to drop their goods off at a fence (that's a person that buys illegally obtained goods)... well they were going to do that anyway. The fence just happens to have to clean the goods before reselling. Complaining about that is a bit like miners complaining that they have to learn how to scan for resources as well as all those mining skills. It's not like this is a MMO with other players that will do those jobs you don't want to do.  But wait.  It is.

Now you missed the mark entirely. BPOs in EVE (Blueprint Originals) are not impossible to loot if someone's stupid enoiugh to move them out of a manufacturing plant. MAster Blueprints being Impossible to be stolen, is the kind of mentality that I am talking about on this very idea of "Cleaners". It's "people be scared, wanting immunity to losing items". Deal with it, if someone outsmarts you and backstabs you (which they will attempt and quite possibly succeed in a certain capacity), you'll lose your precious Master Blueprint.

 

You may say "nah lad, I got it covered, I'll keep it in a safezone and move the Copies with haulers". Yes, cause you are the first person to tihnk of that master stroke of ingenuity. Cause nobody will tell people "Kurock is moving his BPCs of his highly successful Ship design at that time, on that shuttle". Yeah. Then one day, after a lot of lost Copies to pirates, you'll try to move the Master Blueprint to your manufacturing center, where your faction's fleet holds the space there safe and clean of pirates, and guess what,  the same people selling you out, will sell you out again and people will steal your Master Blueprint. It's how one person in EVE, got hold of all Tier-2 Blueprint Originals.... yeah... 

 

And you want to remove that part of the game, the sandbox. There's no "industrial espionage" gameplay definition in EVE. It's an EMERGENT gameplay activity.

 

Having "Cleaners" is not Emergent gameplay. It's a skill training meant for one use only, to Disenchant Spacemagic RDMS. It's not Gunnery training, meant to be adapted for railguns or blasters or lasers or machineguns. It's not Navigation, that adapts to starfighters, shuttles and cruisers. It's one single thing, one single skill, that can't benefit any other gameplay. You can't use Cleaner skills to hack. 

 

And gues what? You just made the game into EVE's alt-frenzy cancer. "You better have a Cleaer Alt for your loot", which translates to "if you don't got a second account to spend cleaner training in, prepare to waste a lot of weeks mastering Cleaner 5 if you can't afford a second account".

 

Yeah. That's right. People will do that. Cleaner gameplay? It's as much of a joke as Dedicated Miner in EVE or Dedicated Industrialist. Everyone and their dog got an industry alt account or miners in  EVE. NQ possibly made miners a legit business only to have Cleaner Alts in their stead? And since the game is not "autopilot crafting", means you'll have to waste a lot of hours "Cleaning" loot. And I do mean a lot of hours. Tedious, click and disenchant, repetitive, boring, waste of time on grinding. In fact, the word grinding applies to that Cleaner idea spot on.

 

And again, there's no such thing as "illegal" goods. There are ports that are pirate friendly and ports that shoot pirates or affiliates with pirates on sight. You assume trade will be open and free and that nobody will cut corners. Which is the inherit problem with Cleaners. It's a faux idea of "fairness", based on a gameplay that will delegated to atls with those who spend Cleaner skillpoints on their main characters being dubbed all sort of "french" words and you just introduced an alt frenzy into the game with one single skillpoint training that serves no other purpose.

 

I can mine and sell to a pirate port without my goods being illegal. Or you think there's legal and illegal titanium? A fence works only in a legal framework, for a person that undercuts via shadey means. A fence will buy smuggled goods. It's the rule of half - you sell the stolen goods on a half price of the actual market, to a person that will sell for full price in a market with high need. You sell at half the price of the market, cause you don't have costs to upset AKA, the reason for being a pirate. If a pirate has a cost on their good, or fence has any other cost added to the Rule of Half, then the system is BROKEN.

 

That's what most people call "broken mechanics".

 

I was under the impression of people knowing a bit about any form of economics, but I guess I was wrong. Given how easily you people confuse the terms Broker and Fence.

 

 

 

P.S. : Quanta being unlootable makes absolute sense, cause :

 

1) it's a digital currency.

 

2) it's - as I have said many times - the actual ENERGY bar of a character. Without it, you can't do much, unless you are well connected or very valuable and people give you stuff for free.

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Master Blueprints (aka original blueprints) being lootable or not is also not part of this discussion (though JC did say they would be not be lootable, though again anything can change.)

 

The Cleaner alt argument is pretty null and void since the same can be said for pretty much any set of skills. I have faith that NQ will make a system that is not tedious. Just because I certainly have not thought of all the minutae that could make for an interesting cleaner gameplay, does not mean its not possible.  Perhaps a similar system to hacking could be used. Perhaps they are just specialized hackers that need to use a massive machine instead of being out in the field.  Just as a miner does not have to be an industrialist, a pirate does not have to be a cleaner.

 

broker - a person who buys and sells goods or assets for others

fence - a person who deals in stolen goods

So I very much mean a fence. A fence buys and sells *stolen* goods.  So I did mean "stolen" instead of "illegal" though usually the one does mean the other. Though I do agree "illegal" in DU is pretty subjective and pretty meaningless in this discussion.

 

And I would tone down the condescension a tad and explain difficult concepts like economics in a friendly and pleasant fashion involving many MMO references.

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I think this entire back and forth between Kurock and Twerk is based around the idea that the whole Cleaner matter is based around a skill that lets you clean items. I believe in the OP Kurock said the Cleaner would be an Element, that I assume wouldn't be *too* expensive to make, and that removes tags from whatever items you put in it, at whatever quantity, thus meaning that you can use them without being labeled an outlaw (assuming the person you killed has no idea who you are and hasn't tagged you as an outlaw already). While you can take the ore, and the ammo, and whatnot, if you want to use the guns or the boots you gotta hack them or clean them, otherwise you'll be labeled an outlaw. Most pirates (or soldiers on the battlefield) don't care, so meh, they'll be able to make full use of the stuff they loot. However, some people don't want to get the infraction against them, so they can pass through cities with no one giving them the stink eye, but still be a proper mafia boss, so they take it to the cleaner before they use it.

 

Also I find that such a black and white system for determining who an outlaw is or isn't is kind of lacking. If my friend lends me an item but I don't have the tags for it, do I get labeled an outlaw for having 'stolen' the item? Will there be a 'trade' option where two characters face to face can exchange items without fear of such a thing?That'd be the catch-all I'd expect.

 

EDIT: I assume the element would be small enough to fit into a frigate, but not something you could stick on a tiny little two man ship. For balance.

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Master Blueprints (aka original blueprints) being lootable or not is also not part of this discussion (though JC did say they would be not be lootable, though again anything can change.)

 

The Cleaner alt argument is pretty null and void since the same can be said for pretty much any set of skills. I have faith that NQ will make a system that is not tedious. Just because I certainly have not thought of all the minutae that could make for an interesting cleaner gameplay, does not mean its not possible.  Perhaps a similar system to hacking could be used. Perhaps they are just specialized hackers that need to use a massive machine instead of being out in the field.  Just as a miner does not have to be an industrialist, a pirate does not have to be a cleaner.

 

broker - a person who buys and sells goods or assets for others

fence - a person who deals in stolen goods

So I very much mean a fence. A fence buys and sells *stolen* goods.  So I did mean "stolen" instead of "illegal" though usually the one does mean the other. Though I do agree "illegal" in DU is pretty subjective and pretty meaningless in this discussion.

 

And I would tone down the condescension a tad and explain difficult concepts like economics in a friendly and pleasant fashion involving many MMO references.

Well, given NQ wants to have an EVE-style economy, there's no easy way of explaining how economy works in MMO referrences, cause it took 5 economists to build EVE's trading rulesets and gameplays. There's a reason in EVE's micromanagement hell, there's no such thing as "cleaners". It's because it violates the Rule of Half (item costs 100 bucks on the main trading hub, you sell it at 50, cause you got no production to upset, you are a pirate).

 

Having a window of "nuh ah ah! Can't sell the item yet, cause it's Soulbound" is just making piracy the kind of "patient" gameplay pirates OPENLY elected to avoid by being frigging pirates. People in EVE pirate stuff off of others, then sell them for profit. And if EVE, the king of micromanagement MMOs, has no such thing as cleaners, I can't see why in DU there should be, that's a game with no insane levels of micromanagement like EVE.

 

I am all in for RDMS "locks" on containers. But RDMS "locks" on any item, is just gonna make those pirates into mindless griefing. PEople will go like "oh, let's jsut kill anything, and sent the loot for cleaning, we gotta maximise the time for profit, let's farm ANYONE for nor reason".

 

Fun times. Not even the casual EVE interaction of "drop your cargo, and you just walk away". Just blow a person up, you can't waste time, you need to keep up hoarding more loot to have it cleaned on your cleaner alts your and your crew have. Cleaner Gameplay? More like Grind Universe Online. They'll do what miners do with ore, mine a lot of ore an process it? Only other players are the ore, and processing is "Cleaning".

 

Mhmmmm, objectifying other players because of a pointless profession that's gonna be eventually delegated to players' alt accounts. Who wins? Well, NQ does, cause of the obligatory Cleaner Account people will need to stay competitive in piracy or even seizure of spoils. Even worse if the cleaning can be done via scripts, and you just need to be near the script on an alt-tab account or a second rig. Dual-boxing Cleaner ? Sounds balanced, amirite? And it's not like mining, where refining minerals as a skillset makes sense. Cleaning has NOTHING to offer the pirate and it's just taking away from their skill training queue.

 

This is a sad reality, nobody is gonna be a Cleaner / Disenchanter, everyone will have cleaner alts, and those who don't will lag behind at a significant disadvantage.And EVE's cancerous alt frenzy will spread in DU, as you either have a Cleaner alt or you are not able to sell as fast as those who do have a second account. You may think having everything being Soulbound is gonna be a good addition, but it's just gonna cause agitation to pirates and turn them to griefers who can't waste time, cause time is money on a subscription MMO that has a lot of grind to sell items you already looted.

 

In fact, having "Cleaner" gameplay, is like haivng the part of Archeage where you identify items (grindey grind of the grindiest order), only you are not playing a Free-to-Play, run of the mill Korean MMO-trash, you are playing a subscription based MMO.

 

 

 

This is a commentary on the suggestion of Cleaners, again, not on NQ's part in this. They haven't disclosed their ideas on loot and hacking or how it works. I point out the flaws of thinking "Cleaner is gonna be a fun gameplay for players", which it won't be Kurock, no matter how much yo udefend it. It's just gonna be grind of the highest order.

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I think this entire back and forth between Kurock and Twerk is based around the idea that the whole Cleaner matter is based around a skill that lets you clean items. I believe in the OP Kurock said the Cleaner would be an Element, that I assume wouldn't be *too* expensive to make, and that removes tags from whatever items you put in it, at whatever quantity, thus meaning that you can use them without being labeled an outlaw (assuming the person you killed has no idea who you are and hasn't tagged you as an outlaw already). While you can take the ore, and the ammo, and whatnot, if you want to use the guns or the boots you gotta hack them or clean them, otherwise you'll be labeled an outlaw. Most pirates (or soldiers on the battlefield) don't care, so meh, they'll be able to make full use of the stuff they loot. However, some people don't want to get the infraction against them, so they can pass through cities with no one giving them the stink eye, but still be a proper mafia boss, so they take it to the cleaner before they use it.

 

Also I find that such a black and white system for determining who an outlaw is or isn't is kind of lacking. If my friend lends me an item but I don't have the tags for it, do I get labeled an outlaw for having 'stolen' the item? Will there be a 'trade' option where two characters face to face can exchange items without fear of such a thing?That'd be the catch-all I'd expect.

 

EDIT: I assume the element would be small enough to fit into a frigate, but not something you could stick on a tiny little two man ship. For balance.

That's irrelevant. To build an Element, you need training, to use it, you need training. Training takes time, and people will have alt accounts to max the Cleaner training, like people do for EVE miners and industry alts.

 

And for the Element to take time to process the items, means it has capacity and a cycle of its work to be done. So, welcome to Dual-boxing or Multiboxing Universe Online, where people use three or four accounts to do cleaning jobs via Lua scripts.

 

Fun.

 

You guys think so small, it's impressive at times. You think "lolzies, I'll go pirate, pew pew, lol, and have five to six items and clean them and sell them, loluziels". People who want to make mad banks on piracy, will just eject you out of any market, by griefing mindlessly, looting, sending the loot back with a hauler, then having their multiboxing cleaner alts run cycles.

 

Fun fun, amirite? Hauling alts are already an issue, but let's just throw in more incentive for people to have more alts, right? 

 

I hope NQ sees the problem with having tags on items and keep the RDMS as a lock type of system for containers, while making it a form of law system for actions taken on a construct or territory. Cause a realistic economy with magical Soulbound Leather Boots, doens't mix.

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I didn't actually specify any actual gameplay but I did make a suggestion on how to get around a locked down RDMS.

 

What this discussion has made clear is that a cleaner, while it would be an interesting hacker job, is not the answer to the RDMS lockdown, which was the point of this thread.

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the cleaners?

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You guys think so small, it's impressive at times. You think "lolzies, I'll go pirate, pew pew, lol, and have five to six items and clean them and sell them, loluziels". People who want to make mad banks on piracy, will just eject you out of any market, by griefing mindlessly, looting, sending the loot back with a hauler, then having their multiboxing cleaner alts run cycles.

Fun fun, amirite? Hauling alts are already an issue, but let's just throw in more incentive for people to have more alts, right? 

 

Please play nice so we can discuss ideas without resorting to belittling. The backsliding into old ways are entirely unnecessary.

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I didn't actually specify any actual gameplay but I did make a suggestion on how to get around a locked down RDMS.

 

What this discussion has made clear is that a cleaner, while it would be an interesting hacker job, is not the answer to the RDMS lockdown, which was the point of this thread.

 

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the cleaners?

Ah, we agree on something. 

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So much life in the forums today, and yet so much anger too.

 

I still stand by my statement that 1) items themselves shouldn't be tag locked, only the containers and 2) having a "washing" element that just takes items and cleans them over time would not be very fun. I would much rather there be thinking involved.

 

And remember what JC said: stealing items may be as simple as right click -> steal

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So much life in the forums today, and yet so much anger too.

 

I still stand by my statement that 1) items themselves shouldn't be tag locked, only the containers and 2) having a "washing" element that just takes items and cleans them over time would not be very fun. I would much rather there be thinking involved.

 

And remember what JC said: stealing items may be as simple as right click -> steal

I'd want contaienrs to follow the rule of "if you can't open the container, then smash it, but be prepared to have a loss of loot in the process". I mean, be prapared or be a scavenger >.>

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I'd want contaienrs to follow the rule of "if you can't open the container, then smash it, but be prepared to have a loss of loot in the process". I mean, be prapared or be a scavenger >.>

That's a really good idea. And chopping up ships could damage the elements as well

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I think Just a long time to hack should be enough for pirating.Sure chop shops exist and are in movies and such, but i honestly think it will just add extra storage to manage on DU's part for storing whos sticker belongs to who. liek sure elements and such need that, but i bet my left arm peopel are gonna use "stickers" amnd such way too much in game to where it would just be an impractical load to keep track of not just so many stickers, but their proper owners. i think it would be better if stickers didnt belong to anybody but were just placed. and anyone can take one down in say 20 minutes for a nice double delux extra layered paint. thatway it still takes a while to replace everything, but you wont have the servers clogged up with whos "graffiti" belongs to who

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So much life in the forums today, and yet so much anger too.

I still stand by my statement that 1) items themselves shouldn't be tag locked, only the containers and 2) having a "washing" element that just takes items and cleans them over time would not be very fun. I would much rather there be thinking involved.

And remember what JC said: stealing items may be as simple as right click -> steal

No anger, just disappointment.

 

I kind of agree with point 1 but for 2 I never defined exactly *how* it would work, just a broad idea on *what* it could be. It could be no more boring than hacking e.g. Using a mini game.

 

After an item is stolen, does the thief automatically get full use of it? That seems highly abusable. When (if ever) does it lose its "stolen" status? Would people be happy if a stolen item remains stolen but is still useable/sellable with exception of some items that can be locked down e.g. Containers, doors, ships etc. (These would need to be hacked to gain access). So now that cleaners are out of the picture, an item can only lose its stolen status when returned to its rightful owner.

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I'm fairly certain that Items will not have RDMS tags.  They will simply be items in your inventory, much like or, but usable.  When you think about it, there is no need for this, and it would be ridiculous.  RDMS will be for constructs and containers.  If you don't want someone to have access to the guns, you lock the gun case.  Also, I don't think having items tagged as possessions is a good idea either.  The RDMS can, and probably should have an ownership tag, so that when someone hacks into it, it flags them as a thief for however long or to whomever.  As far as breaking into a case, I think that shooting, or blowing it up, should destroy the case along with everything in it.  Much like blowing a hole in a ship will destroy what is blown up, you can salvage what of the ship you didnt blow up, granted you either hack, or destroy the core.  Similarly, you should be able to hack the crate.  However, I would also say for those that don't want to go down the hacking skill tree, allowing one to use a crowbar to pry the thing open would be a good idea.  The container is damaged in the process, becoming unlock-able.  Perhaps the goods inside are damaged by this, that's optional, and reasonable as a punishment for not having the hacking skill.  But I feel this system is fair, and balanced.  As far as blueprints, that's a little trickier.  If you sell a blueprint copy to someone, they can print the construct.  If you have the printed copy disable the core so it cant make new copies, then the player can simply destroy the core and make a new one, thus allowing Blueprint making again.  You cannot disallow the replacement of a core, because then you cant repair constructs that have been core-disabled.  One option is to disable basic LUA code creation for cores being placed in existing structures.  Thus requiring manual reprogramming.  If you could somehow make basic LUA code have a tag or trigger allowing the making of blueprints, that cant be reproduced by manual programming, then problem solved. Simply make 'non-Master Copy' Blueprints have the 'Enable Blueprint creation' disabled in the core of the construct.  Otherwise, it's a tricky situation.

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I'm fairly certain that Items will not have RDMS tags.  They will simply be items in your inventory, much like or, but usable.  When you think about it, there is no need for this, and it would be ridiculous.  RDMS will be for constructs and containers.  If you don't want someone to have access to the guns, you lock the gun case.  Also, I don't think having items tagged as possessions is a good idea either.  The RDMS can, and probably should have an ownership tag, so that when someone hacks into it, it flags them as a thief for however long or to whomever.  As far as breaking into a case, I think that shooting, or blowing it up, should destroy the case along with everything in it.  Much like blowing a hole in a ship will destroy what is blown up, you can salvage what of the ship you didnt blow up, granted you either hack, or destroy the core.  Similarly, you should be able to hack the crate.  However, I would also say for those that don't want to go down the hacking skill tree, allowing one to use a crowbar to pry the thing open would be a good idea.  The container is damaged in the process, becoming unlock-able.  Perhaps the goods inside are damaged by this, that's optional, and reasonable as a punishment for not having the hacking skill.  But I feel this system is fair, and balanced.  As far as blueprints, that's a little trickier.  If you sell a blueprint copy to someone, they can print the construct.  If you have the printed copy disable the core so it cant make new copies, then the player can simply destroy the core and make a new one, thus allowing Blueprint making again.  You cannot disallow the replacement of a core, because then you cant repair constructs that have been core-disabled.  One option is to disable basic LUA code creation for cores being placed in existing structures.  Thus requiring manual reprogramming.  If you could somehow make basic LUA code have a tag or trigger allowing the making of blueprints, that cant be reproduced by manual programming, then problem solved. Simply make 'non-Master Copy' Blueprints have the 'Enable Blueprint creation' disabled in the core of the construct.  Otherwise, it's a tricky situation.

 

Actually, items will currently have some sort of tag: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10995-devblog-organizations-purpose-management/ 

But the current iteration is not final and does make stealing impossible (which is why this thread was created in the first place).

 

Interesting points about the blueprints.  If a ship is stolen, and the core is destroyed and replaced and the outside voxels and elements are still intact, will the new owner be able to create a master blueprint of effectively a stolen ship design, albeit without any custom scripts (destroyed with the core).  This doesn't seem right.  I don't have an issue with someone putting in the time and manually copying someone elses design, but stealing a single ship and getting infinite blueprints out of it seems like there is little point to selling blueprints.

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Reverse engineering will be common.  You won't get the core or scripts, but you will be able to disassemble a construct to see how its made, so that you can create your own master.  There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

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Reverse engineering will be common.  You won't get the core or scripts, but you will be able to disassemble a construct to see how its made, so that you can create your own master.  There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

 

 

It's not like Lua is rocket acience.

 

 

Algorithms though are, so good luck reverse engineering those :P

 

 

Knowing how something is built and what makes it tick are two totally different things.

 

 

Imo, GTA in DU should involve hacking a core unit. It transfers ownership of the vehicle, not overriding the RDMS restrictions imposed on its blueprint. So yeah, we knida agree on something for the majority of it.

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Reverse engineering will be common.  You won't get the core or scripts, but you will be able to disassemble a construct to see how its made, so that you can create your own master.  There's nothing stopping you from doing that.

 

No. With this feature there wouldn't be which would mean we would need a way to protect your CU from being hacked. You would need to hide it well enough to where an attacker couldn't find it. Also, maybe put up fire walls and such but now you are confusing people who can't code. It is a cool idea but flawed in way too many ways. It would be cool though if you could hack it.

 

Maybe when you hack it, it allows you to sell it on the market or scrap it, but no disassemble it to where you can understand how it was built.

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From my understanding, JC has indicated that all constructs and scripts are automatically downloaded to EVERY player's PC when they get within a certain range.  You may not have ownership of the construct, but it resides on your PC.  The construct itself may not be usable, but you're gonna have a lot of scripts (whether you know what construct they're related to).  If they're not immediately readable, I'm betting it won't be long before an app will allow you to read them.  A builder can reverse engineer the voxel construction, and possibly figure out which scripts were associated with the original.

 

There have already been threads on the issue.  Scripts are not currently encrypted.  Therefore, they're readable.

 

A coder's best bet (at least in the beginning) is to obfuscate their code.

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From my understanding, JC has indicated that all constructs and scripts are automatically downloaded to EVERY player's PC when they get within a certain range.  You may not have ownership of the construct, but it resides on your PC.  The construct itself may not be usable, but you're gonna have a lot of scripts (whether you know what construct they're related to).  If they're not immediately readable, I'm betting it won't be long before an app will allow you to read them.  A builder can reverse engineer the voxel construction, and possibly figure out which scripts were associated with the original.

 

There have already been threads on the issue.  Scripts are not currently encrypted.  Therefore, they're readable.

 

A coder's best bet (at least in the beginning) is to obfuscate their code.

...what.

 

No. That's not how Procedural Generation works. It's not only applicable to planets...

 

If that was the case, the servers would crack, and there would not be a strong RAM-wise Motherboard to run the game. It's the same ridiculous arguement some other people made of :

 

 

"how will you saves planets in serverz? I dont understands, howz will youz savez planetz mades of voxelz in serverz?".

 

They don't, they save a number entry on a planet, that comes out of a procedural generation algorithm. The server only saves geocodes of "planet Core Units", "construct Core Units" and the entry on the algorithm that pulls out a certain voxel combination and the 3D mesh models (Elements) placement. That's not the same as having 10 airplanes in War Thunder, loaded into the game within Rendering distance. In DU, you can see a planet from a great distance.

 

Scripts will be most likely streamed to you and ran on your PC upon interacting with a Control Unit. Same principle of streaming, it's procedural generation (shocker, I know). Otherwise those Youtube vides you watch would tkae 5 minutes to load, even the smallest one. The procedural generation is what makes streaming possible.

 

Also... how will you obfuscate your scripts? Are you gonna hack into the game's source code and obfuscate it? Obfsucation is a tactical fustercluuck on the code. NQ needs to know what the obfuscation mathod is on the server side to decypher the messed up script. Are you gonna haxxor your way into NQ's datacenters and ninja place your reverse obfuscation method?

 

NQ and only NQ can obfuscate the scripts. There's no bet you, or I or anyone can take on their own in this regard.

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I'm not sure how far the RDMS feature is going to go but on guns and ammo it sounds like a biometric lock which is logical in a space era. The ammo lock is due to it not recognizing your guns IFF or ID. Long story short bring enough ammo and allies on your side to a fight. And don't expect to gain necessities on the fly until later when you can macro wipe the tags. All I'm saying is our governments today are interested in making weapons and ammo along with assests locked to their side or specific individuals so the enemy doesn't use their tech against them, at least not right away (obviously if they can wipe the original bio and update it to a new one then they would be able to use it.). RDMS can be viewed as this system realized. Although locking raw materials and ingots outside a container is a bit overkill.

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