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captured ships and selfdestruct

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Ok, I'm done defending myself, you obviously can't understand that not everyone is a pirate out to get you. Also, the CSYN does not support piracy, they just make deals with pirates to leave CSYN alone. The CSYN pretty much controls the universe at this point :P So by saying that the CSYN supports piracy, you're saying that pretty much all the big organizations support piracy. And lastly, I'm not describing the UDF as the Mafia, I'm describing them as a security service, you pay us, we protect what you want us to protect.

Thank you :) This made my day. Apparently, as y member of the CSYN you also represent the Terran Union as well. 

 

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 Wondering if self destruct destroys the whole ship or just the core/reactor/engines

Probably, depending on how much power the core / reactor can output and its material type, the larger / stronger the explosion.

 

An anti-matter reactor that is overloaded would be devastating for example.

 

A small reactor, with a very weak output, probably would cut the ship in half and take out its Core Unit (starting block of the construct).

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i think:

 

1.) Self destruct may (or may not) kill all nearby players, firiendly and hostile.

 

Death is, must be, heavy and serious event.

 

If so, both sides need to consider risks of selfdestruct. This can be serious enough for both sides of the coin.

 

2.) Selfdestruct dont need to be "binary event". It can have all shades of grey. From simple sabotage, disabling ships componetns, to partial destruct, mabye jetting all fuel to space, etc. The big booom could be only one form of selfdesruction.

1) a grenade is not C4. Same goes with power cores. A level 1 power core won't have the same blast radius as a level 10 power core. Fuel type plays a role as well. 

 

When a player dies ,they lose some of ther gear and the rest is destroyed (possible salvaging gameplay on that unkown)

As I keep saying, if you board a ship, go and disconect the fuel tank from the power core. That will stop the core from overloading with fuel.

 

2) An explosion in space does not behave like it would on earth. JC Baillie on youtube AMA, said they plan for damage to spread around a point of impact, that means an explosion can be made with a tapering effect. 

 

Are you shoulder to shoulder with the overloading ship? You'll probably get melted. You see a ship overloadning ? Get away from them, it's tha tsimple. They cna't accelerate, because they got no thrust going, because they are overloading the core. 

 

And no, a Battleship and a destroyer class ship should not have the sme explosive radius. A power plant on a planet, should not have the same destructive radius on overload with a shuttle's power core.

 

The thing with self-destruct, is that its only shades of grey, would be the power core stats. If a power core has a better fuel replenishment speed, then the power core overloads faster. If a power core has more power output then it has more powerful of an explosion and any other aspect of the core there is.

 

Fuel tanks should be a secondary primer for this, if a fuel tank is destroyed, it explodes as well, so, if a power core goes boom, its explosion is limited (since its space), but its intensity would be more powerful.

 

All the self-destruct would do, would be to turn the ship into one last glorious stand.

 

 

And I do support the idea that if a ship bumps to another ship, both ships suffer an "core fuel leak", which fills up the bar on the power core that leads to overloading. Link the process to the ships' masses and you got yourself exploding starfighters when they crash onto a battleship.

 

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And I do support the idea that if a ship bumps to another ship, both ships suffer an "core fuel leak", which fills up the bar on the power core that leads to overloading. Link the process to the ships' masses and you got yourself exploding starfighters when they crash onto a battleship.

 

I dont think thats a good idea because thats in a round about way collision damage. Wich for many reasons is of the table.

 

I have no real problem with a self destruct. But in my opinion it should be a commited decision. You activate it? Great but there is no going back, prepare to explode.

 

I know I might be alone in that opinion but thats OK for me.

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I dont think thats a good idea because thats in a round about way collision damage. Wich for many reasons is of the table.

 

I have no real problem with a self destruct. But in my opinion it should be a commited decision. You activate it? Great but there is no going back, prepare to explode.

 

I know I might be alone in that opinion but thats OK for me.

If a Core Overload can't be aborted, then a Core Overlload can't be stopped. It works both ways. If an enemy has the means to stop my core from going boom, I should be able to do that too.

 

Also, if two ships were to scracth one another and the core was to gather more fuel due to X, Y, Z reasons, the Engineer on a ship would have to "repair" the Core to bring down the overload bar.

A Core is too overloaded and the ship is under fire? Add a Power Surge mechanic, that acts like an afterburner in a way.

 

In fact, it doesn't have to be collision even. Just brutal deceleration, that causes the Core to start overloading with fuel it can't process and the Overload Bar filling up. Engineers would be like, the ship's Healers in a way. And I don't want the engineers to be just repair drones. I want them to be actually smart players who contribute to the ship by tweaking the Power Core in the midst of battle, giving the ship speed or more powerful shields or anything.

 

 

And if push comes to shove, the Engineer seals the door to the Power Core chamber and sets it on self-destruct. 

 

 

o7 

 

We salute them brave engineers.

 

 

And in my suggestion, on a collision, theres' no voxel editing. Depending on the ships' mass difference, they suffer Core Olverload.

 

If my Battleship is 10x times larger than a destroyer ship, the destroyer is melted on implact, depending on my ship's contact with its center of mass. My battleship on the other hand suffers 10% Core Overload. The Destroyer suffers 100%.

 

It's not Voxel Editing. It's not Space Engineers. It's simply linking the ship's mass and speed and comparing it to the enemy's to push the Core Overload Bar.

 

And no, if the mass ratio is lower than 10:1 the smaller ship doesn't even cause the Core Overload bar to fill up. So no PEarl Harbor going on.

 

 

EMERGENT GAMEPLAY :D

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EMERGENT GAMEPLAY :D

Well yeah we all want that. ;)

And its true ship engineers could run around repairing things or balancing power balances if the game allows for that.

 

"I need more power to the shields Scotty!"

 

But even if its not a real collision it would result in the same gameplay that JC wants to avoid. Why wouldnt you build an armada of suicide pilots just to explode on the battle cruiser? Wich is kina cool I agree but it doesnt seem to fit with where the developers want to take combat.

 

Not to mention the rise of bumping trolls.

How much people like this is up for debate of course. ;)

 

Lets face it self destruct affecting other constructs opens a whole can of worms. Not having it removes a certain type of gameplay. But it would just shift towards having a different type of gameplay.

 

It wouldnt destroy the concept of emergent gameplay.

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Well yeah we all want that. ;)

And its true ship engineers could run around repairing things or balancing power balances if the game allows for that.

 

"I need more power to the shields Scotty!"

 

But even if its not a real collision it would result in the same gameplay that JC wants to avoid. Why wouldnt you build an armada of suicide pilots just to explode on the battle cruiser? Wich is kina cool I agree but it doesnt seem to fit with where the developers want to take combat.

 

Not to mention the rise of bumping trolls.

How much people like this is up for debate of course. ;)

 

Lets face it self destruct affecting other constructs opens a whole can of worms. Not having it removes a certain type of gameplay. But it would just shift towards having a different type of gameplay.

 

It wouldnt destroy the concept of emergent gameplay.

What tactical purpose would a suicide fleet serve?

 

The guys piloting them are dead. For their ships to cause damage to a battlecruiser, it means those ships were heavy, to be heavy, they need more voxels, to hav more voxels (and they would since they are suicide ships, no need for turrets or anything), they would have more mass, thus need more acceleration.

 

You won a battle, but you lost 100,000,000 SpaceBucks in resources. The enemy lost 1,000,000 Spacbuck in resources. Sucide fleets are NOT a viable tactic.

 

Also, mass+acceleration = harder maneuvers. The enemy won't be sitting still for them Sucide Ships. Unless it's a Pearl Harbor situation, in which case... tough luck, don't put your eggs in one basket, AND EVEN SO, ships have protection bubbles around them when people are offline as a line of defense, so the Power Core is working to fuel that bubble when it's not powering anything.

 

The point is, JC doesn't want "collision voxel editing", it's the same reason voxels will float on planets, if you cut a mountain's base, it will float. The Core overloading due to ships' decelerating suddenly is linked to collision, but not VOXEL EDITING. Voxel Editing is the thing that would cost the servers more processing. Comparing speed and mass of ships is not the same thing.

 

A ship loses propulsion and the gravity of a planet pulls them down? The ship suffers a Core Overload on landing, exploding into million pieces and making a damage bubble around its Power Core, causing a crater. 

 

Unless you want Battleships to bunny hop off a planet. 

 

What I'm suggesting, is a workaround. Voxels won't be damaged on a collision. The Power Core would simply begin to voerload becuasse of "the gravity field suddenly needing more pwower and the core flooding with more fuel to compensate for the sudden deceleration bump" or some Lore mugafen like that, as of why the voxels didn't get any damage on the collision.

 

It's a workaround on Collision.

 

 

 

Have comparison between acceleration and mass of ships, possibly lateral motion and the Core suffering overloads on collisions. 

 

The engineers get a more rich gameplay and feel important.

 

SpaceTruckers and Military people have a way to scuttle their boat (and the military should have that option).

 

Builders have safety mechanics for the buyers of a ship not reverse engineering their DPU and Lua scripts.

 

And ships have awesome explosions when hitting planets and pretty pretty craters.

 

Everyone's having a much more dynamic game.

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@Twerk I know that no collision damage is partly based on technical limitations.

 

But its also based on preventing torpedo ships. So in part its a decision on gameplay.

 

I understand both sides though. And in the end its not that important for me personally. I will adapt either way, I like risk/reward gameplay.

 

Whatever ultimately ends up happening in the game, as long as its smart/challenging its good for me. And we both agree that NQ wants the same things.

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@Falstaf

"armada of suicide pilots" wont happen if death is serious enough.

Wery serious.

But why not.

Cost to make ships = the reason suicide fleets won't happen.

 

For a pilot on a ship, you got to expect certain gear to go along, like G-Force dumpening suits, which would be destroyed when tose pilots die. Which increases the cost.

 

Suicide Fleets are like burning money for nothing. And on top of that, they can be blown to bits before they can even get to you or... you know, wait for them to get on an intercept and hit them with all the EMP weaponry you have, fry them, board the ship, kill the pilot, steal the ship and scrap it to sell for money.

 

The counterplay is there, people just have to put effort on using their brains.

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Cost to make ships = the reason suicide fleets won't happen.

For a pilot on a ship, you got to expect certain gear to go along, like G-Force dumpening suits, which would be destroyed when tose pilots die. Which increases the cost.

Suicide Fleets are like burning money for nothing. And on top of that, they can be blown to bits before they can even get to you or... you know, wait for them to get on an intercept and hit them with all the EMP weaponry you have, fry them, board the ship, kill the pilot, steal the ship and scrap it to sell for money.

The counterplay is there, people just have to put effort on using their brains.

I agree.

But still I would like to see that pilots life has a value, not only materia around him.

One possible solution could be that usage of those respawn nodes would not be free.

Dont die if you can not afford it.

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I agree.

But still I would like to see that pilots life has a value, not only materia around him.

One possible solution could be that usage of those respawn nodes would not be free.

Dont die if you can not afford it.

Well, I motioned for a Skillpoints Loss system or a Shell-Shock mechanism. You die = You are ineffective for the next few days after respawning, and require medical care to make the clock go down faster (log into an alt perhaps for the duration).

 

But that's not been discussed by the Devs so far. The only thing they said is that gear and inventory is lost on death, except for money which are unlootable.

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For a pilot on a ship, you got to expect certain gear to go along, like G-Force dumpening suits, which would be destroyed when tose pilots die. Which increases the cost.

You dont know that, unless I missed the memo talking about having to deal with G-forces. Last I checked thats something you want not a confirmed feature. ;)

 

Same for EMP weapons. If they are added into the game we dont know what exactly they will do. For all we know they could only affect shields. Its all speculation for now.

 

As for suicide fleets, sure the cost could prevent them from being a thing. But it wouldnt prevent the desperate pilot manouver. Thats something completely up for debate as being desirable. Would it look cool? Hell yeah.

 

Shell shock, skill point loss is perhaps just too much for most people. You dont want to discourage combat from happening at all. If you get a hang over from 1 death for days most people wont bother with it. Meaningful yes, too hardcore no.

 

Like I said, a simple self destruct is enough for me.

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Shell shock, skill point loss is perhaps just too much for most people. You dont want to discourage combat from happening at all. If you get a hang over from 1 death for days most people wont bother with it. Meaningful yes, too hardcore no.

 

 

You contradict yourself. Bounty system is not going to be enabled for "PK" players I can put a bounty on you for the hell of it. You spoke of "the game not being about instant gratification" on the Locking your ship thread. Forcing a player to socially interact after they respawn is actually good for the game. Heck, perhaps even having alcohol in-game "healing" your shell-shock (I know, too dark, but hey, the game is not for children, Devs said so, it's for a mature audience). That would make Bars in-game actually a place for people to gather. 

 

A shell-shock system that makes you less effective for a while, makes people think twice before going into mindless killing sprees, as they may die in the process and be less effective and it makes assassins useful, instead of glorified bounty hunters.

 

Put a mark on a person, a trader for example, kill them, then they can get less Buy/Sell Orders for a while, unless they pay a playe to heal them.

 

That's Emergent Gameplay for you and it punishes PK players, as they are going to be mostly likely killed repeatedly and need to chill for a while.

That's actually a good thing.

 

Furthermore, putting bounties on a PK player, is just making their lives better as they don't have to look for combat, combat comes to them. Shell-shock though, that makes them less efficient in combat if they die, punishes them, although the bars will make the game 10 times more awesome.

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You contradict yourself.

Am I? How so?

I am all for delayed reward systems. Have no problems with bounties. And I would enjoy having to visit bars to heal up.

 

But its not about only what I want. I just dont see a general desire for a system that is too punishing. I'm not talking about skill point loss, if you remember our little chat, I dont really have a problem with it.

 

I was talking about multiple days recovering from death. I think that is a bit too hardcore.

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Would definitely be an interesting mechanic added to the game.

I mean, it would be cool to see "pirate manufacturers" being able to copy and produce a ship if they were able to capture it before it self-destructed.

Could add an interesting market aspect :o

Would you then also need a "police force" to enforce ship "patents"?

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The reason shell shock systems usually don't work:

 

These systems usually have an incremented timer in order to prevent users from just going ballistic everywhere.  I mean let's be honest, if we implement this system the first death of a day should not have the same penalties as the 100th.  However, this also means that if organization A is the powerhouse of the game, and they target a smaller organization B for whatever reason... then the smaller organization will run into problems with the incremented timer.  This is a problem in many of the games I have encountered this system in.

 

You could put a cap on the incremented timer, however, where is that cutoff?  Why is that the cutoff?  Is it fair that a player in organization B has to wait for the cutoff, purely because they are in an organization that is hunted by a larger organization?

 

Insult to injury when a larger organization is hounding you.

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Am I? How so?

I am all for delayed reward systems. Have no problems with bounties. And I would enjoy having to visit bars to heal up.

But its not about only what I want. I just dont see a general desire for a system that is too punishing. I'm not talking about skill point loss, if you remember our little chat, I dont really have a problem with it.

I was talking about multiple days recovering from death. I think that is a bit too hardcore.

Well since I kind'a started this, I did some extra reading.

Death is allready planned quite punishing, and ... interesting.

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/10/10/resurrection-node-mechanics/

 

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/07/06/quantum-immortality/

 

"Klips --

A Resurrection Node is a power hungry machine (remember, the beast is twisting the fabric of the quantum multiverse space-time topology, in order to affect its probability distribution and save your ass). You need to power it and make sure it is fully charged, and the time it takes for a full charge will depend on the type of power source you can afford to use. This can range from a few minutes to a few days

-klap

Also loosing some or all of inventory is there as Twerk said.

 

On the other hand it seems to be planned so that RS nodes ar much more complex as i remebered.

 

All good.

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Am I? How so?

I am all for delayed reward systems. Have no problems with bounties. And I would enjoy having to visit bars to heal up.

 

But its not about only what I want. I just dont see a general desire for a system that is too punishing. I'm not talking about skill point loss, if you remember our little chat, I dont really have a problem with it.

 

I was talking about multiple days recovering from death. I think that is a bit too hardcore.

Well, it won't be TOO punishing. 

 

Let's say you die once. You get 1% less efficiency out of your attributes, or at least, your higher attributes, the ones you rely on for your playstyle (clever, I know, but not that clever on my part given the Dev team are frigging gods >.> They probably have a better system if they have one )

 

It will last maybe ten minutes, maybe less, maybe more.

 

You die again. Now it goes logarthmically.

 

(Timer of Shell-shock)^(to the times of death).

 

Effiency penalty loss is (effiency ratio of 1%) + 2(times of death)

 

So, 10^2

So, if you die two times, within ten minutes, you get a 100 minutes (1 hours 40 minutes) Shell-shock. Which would be a good hint of "stop getting killed and chill bruh). Attribute or skill efficiency loss of 5%

 

If you die three times... Well...

 

10^3

 

1000 minutes, or 16.6 hours. Which is a good indication to CHILL. Efficiency loss of 7% 

 

Oh well, you are bloodthirsty soldier, ready to go out again like Tom Cruise on Edge of Tomorrow.

 

10^4

 

10000, which is roughly 1 week of shell-shock. I believe it's time for the Doc, you are barely kept together. Efficiency loss of 9%. You can still go, but it's time for some chill.

 

Depending on the skill level of the Doctor, you get your shell-shock removed or reduced significantly.

 

Emergent Nurse Joy Gameplay.

 

You drink alcohol? You get a buzz (blurry screen) and the timer is accelerated, but you got limit on how much booze you can intake during a period of the "drunk' buff, before you suffer poison damage (because logic).

 

 

Here you go, three gameplay examples by one simple mechanic.

 

You get medical centers around Res Nodes. You get Bars in cities for guys to go chill after a battle so they can talk while doing nothing, or as many call it, SOCIAL INTERACTION. And you get the penalty for death.

 

Also, defenders of a city and attackers, now have a virtual range of how much they can fight and hold their positions. If those soldiers die a heck o a lot, they become prtty much useless after a lot of battle and NEED medical attention. A Medical Officer on a ship is confirmed that way. 

 

"Damn it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a (insert profession here) " said Doctor Bones.

 

 

There's no Skill Loss perse, just efficiency.

 

 

 

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Also loosing some or all of inventory is there as Twerk said.

 

Yea I know, but Twerk wants to add ontop of that with skill point loss and shell shock.

 

I'm not against any of that perse, I just dont want things to discourage less fanatic people.

 

Its good for DU to be niche but it shouldnt be soo niche that it discourages people from playing or fighting, in my opinion.

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Yea I know, but Twerk wants to add ontop of that with skill point loss and shell shock.

 

I'm not against any of that perse, I just dont want things to discourage less fanatic people.

 

Its good for DU to be niche but it shouldnt be soo niche that it discourages people from playing or fighting, in my opinion.

Trust me, the point of losing items won't discourage me from PvP. It will encourage me to fight like a knave.

 

It's not like I won't, it's just an incentive to fight like a knave more.

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"Damn it Jim, I'm a Doctor, not a (insert profession here) " said Doctor Bones.

 

Yea that would be fun. *sigh*

And I always support things that encourage social interaction in MMO's.

 

The way you describe shell shock doesnt scare me actually. If you mere mortal can come up with something like that, the gods at NQ can do better.

 

I just dont want to scare of the people you call carebears. ;)

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Yea that would be fun. *sigh*

And I always support things that encourage social interaction in MMO's.

 

The way you describe shell shock doesnt scare me actually. If you mere mortal can come up with something like that, the gods at NQ can do better.

 

I just dont want to scare of the people you call carebears. ;)

I think the carebears wil be called "civilians" in DUAL.

 

Civilians don't actually want to go to war. 

 

And if a faction starts Drafting people in it with the punishment of exile if they don't tag along, POLITICS gets more serious.

 

Dictators make people like me look good. I like bombs. I like bombs a lot. Just saying.

 

I don't think people who are in it for the building in the game will actually want to fight. Not all people like fighting. It's not a PvP centered game, it's a sandbox. You can play as (almost) anything you want that's not PvP related.

 

It's just that PvP needs to have consequences. If you defeat an enemy army by killing their soldiers time and time again, you essentially cripple that army for a certain duration until their medics get through all of them, thus, creating a dynamic in PvP that goes beyond the battle of here and now.

 

Healing costs resources, resources cost money, money means possibly higher taxes, higher taxes means civilians start protesting, and some of them call me for a good ol' fashioned bombing attack to start a rebellion. :|

 

Have I said I like explosives? I do.

 

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I am going to throw my two cents in quickly before Twerkmotor spontaneously combusts.

 

I agree there should be a way to effectively "Scorched Earth" your ship, either through self destruct or EMP pulse that fries every computer system making the ship worthless. Scrap can still be collected, but the ship cannot be used (can't add more blocks on to it?

 

I also agree on the fact that you should be able to stop the process when you are attacking, where my favourite skill 'Hacking' (maybe have it as a skill group? Have things like forgery, systems access, cyber-warfare etc.) comes into play. You hack the ship to stop it from exploding/EMPing itself and by doing so, disable the ship. This means that if you activate the self destruct, and the attacker stops it, you become a sitting duck due to your ship being shut down (maybe have it rebooting? so on a timer?).

 

I am completely fine with people self destructing, just so long as there is a way to stop it (hacking minigame against the clock?) and that larger ships take longer to explode.

 

In terms of respawn debuffs, this sounds like a good idea and it would allow for many more professions. Maybe have different healing techniques, so for physical skill damage you have a doctor, for mental skill damage you might go to a bar, maybe have different methods for each skill group. You might also be able to get buffs from these activites. With this, you could make the timers last quite a while, and it would mean that a capital ship will have a sickbay, mess hall, quarters etc. to help get respawned crew members back on their feet quicker.

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I am going to throw my two cents in quickly before Twerkmotor spontaneously combusts.

 

I agree there should be a way to effectively "Scorched Earth" your ship, either through self destruct or EMP pulse that fries every computer system making the ship worthless. Scrap can still be collected, but the ship cannot be used (can't add more blocks on to it?

 

I also agree on the fact that you should be able to stop the process when you are attacking, where my favourite skill 'Hacking' (maybe have it as a skill group? Have things like forgery, systems access, cyber-warfare etc.) comes into play. You hack the ship to stop it from exploding/EMPing itself and by doing so, disable the ship. This means that if you activate the self destruct, and the attacker stops it, you become a sitting duck due to your ship being shut down (maybe have it rebooting? so on a timer?).

 

I am completely fine with people self destructing, just so long as there is a way to stop it (hacking minigame against the clock?) and that larger ships take longer to explode.

 

In terms of respawn debuffs, this sounds like a good idea and it would allow for many more professions. Maybe have different healing techniques, so for physical skill damage you have a doctor, for mental skill damage you might go to a bar, maybe have different methods for each skill group. You might also be able to get buffs from these activites. With this, you could make the timers last quite a while, and it would mean that a capital ship will have a sickbay, mess hall, quarters etc. to help get respawned crew members back on their feet quicker.

*Hands flame retardant screen, to Mr.Jaco.*

 

I have to agree, and I also think there should be components that could add an e-warfare playstyle.  Therefore, not only would skills impact the ability to hack and mess around with systems, but the ship setup as well.  Perhaps increasing the range in which you can take down a system, or the speed at which it can be accomplished.  

 

Same goes for personal goods of course, higher quality terminal devices would increase efficiency as well.  If you're hackin' it at the gate :P

 

E-warfare has been flaunted as being a possibility in Star Citizen.  If it's done well in Dual Universe AND Star Citizen... I will be one happy camper.  It's just not something that has been considered in space games before, really.  At least not in my experience.

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