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Shynras

Automated Mining

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 In that case they could just not add the "mine" command, so that automated constructs can't grind endlessy. We can't just ban any sort of automation because of mining/fighting problems, because you may use that for many things. Even for a simple platform that moves automatically up and down, as an elevator, is automated.

You can't ban the usage of something to stop something else in a sandbox game. The point is that a person should be able to make an entire ship run on scripts, the real issue here is that it has to be something difficult and expensive to pull of, no matter if it's a building or a spaceship.

 

var("x")=1

move(x+1,y,z)

while -= x = -1 do

detectGroundAt(x-1,y,z)

if x == 0 then

fire

if x == -1 then

move(x+1,y,z) 

 

 

This is a rough example of an automated move/detect/drill/move script for a drillbot on a horizontal straight line pattern. This can be made to loop with keeping an eye out on its fuel reserves and inventory space on the drillbot. It's a simple automaton. But, I can make it check around it, if it finds open air, by stating that x has to be either 2 or 1, so the bot double checks instead of falling to its doom. And this is the issue. Not all are Jedi Masters in programming and not all have the artistic mindset to build a factory. If it's a feat of strength to make an automaton on the scale of a battleship, then a person should be able to do it, but with that person being on board and NOT afk. The human element should be present.

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You can't ban the usage of something to stop something else in a sandbox game. The point is that a person should be able to make an entire ship run on scripts, the real issue here is that it has to be something difficult and expensive to pull of, no matter if it's a building or a spaceship.

 

var("x")=1

move(x+1,y,z)

while -= x = -1 do

detectGroundAt(x-1,y,z)

if x == 0 then

fire

if x == -1 then

move(x+1,y,z) 

 

 

This is a rough example of an automated move/detect/drill/move script for a drillbot on a horizontal straight line pattern. This can be made to loop with keeping an eye out on its fuel reserves and inventory space on the drillbot. It's a simple automaton. But, I can make it check around it, if it finds open air, by stating that x has to be either 2 or 1, so the bot double checks instead of falling to its doom. And this is the issue. Not all are Jedi Masters in programming and not all have the artistic mindset to build a factory. If it's a feat of strength to make an automaton on the scale of a battleship, then a person should be able to do it, but with that person being on board and NOT afk. The human element should be present.

 

Thats assuming you can check around it in the first place. Though there should be a way to and I do agree that it should not be easy to script something like an autopilot and by extension a full auto-miner

 

Also fully automated battleships sounds like something I would do so its probably going to happen if its at all possable

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Thats assuming you can check around it in the first place. Though there should be a way to and I do agree that it should not be easy to script something like an autopilot and by extension a full auto-miner

Well, given that even in WoW LUA scripts there's a detectGroundAt function, I can't see why NQ would not put the same thing in Dual. In fact, many games I've built scripts for have deteGroundAt or detectTerrainAt commands. Heck, even League of Legends scripts can be coded like that (and yes, you can play Vayne like you are Neo from Matrix, complete with detecting orientation of particle effects around you).

 

 

And my suggestion on tiers of DPUs stands. While it's not realistic, it's a means to balance automated droids from being precise snipers with a shotgun slug.

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Botting would be if you were on board a ship with automated LUA scripts and had a bot running your player character mate. That would be botting and is considered a cheat. I did mention AFK on my comment.

 

That would make NQ the biggest hypocrites if they were to call that cheating. For giving you the tools for automation, then punishing you for it. Automations certainly shouldn't stop or shut down if you were offline. There are other uses for automation, specifically automated defenses which you wouldn't want to stop working once you went offline. Or consider a case where the owner goes offline and other right-holders still need the automation to work.

 

Regulation of automations will have to happen some way other than stopping when you go offline. SE's programmable block claims it can measure "complexity" so perhaps something similar could be used here. I do like your idea of tiered DPUs, so maybe that's the way to go. Don't know how it can or should be done, but the idea is a start.

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That would make NQ the biggest hypocrites if they were to call that cheating. For giving you the tools for automation, then punishing you for it. Automations certainly shouldn't stop or shut down if you were offline. There are other uses for automation, specifically automated defenses which you wouldn't want to stop working once you went offline. Or consider a case where the owner goes offline and other right-holders still need the automation to work.

 

Regulation of automations will have to happen some way other than stopping when you go offline. SE's programmable block claims it can measure "complexity" so perhaps something similar could be used here. I do like your idea of tiered DPUs, so maybe that's the way to go. Don't know how it can or should be done, but the idea is a start.

As I said, not being AFK counts as no botting to me. Setting an automated machinery online and going to work, would be botting.  But , we are overthinking it.

 

There will probably be a power consumption associated with how many strings or loops exist in a DPU for automation. It won't be an endless mining thing. So, there is a countermeasure, as fuel is not forever.

 

So yeah, you could make a ship mine automatically, but if production is not worth it, then why bother? I believe the theroycrafting and math experts will come up with charts of how productive the cost per profit ratio will be and the whole auto mining business will be regulated by this. If a group of players can have an automated drilling ship, with an extra carrier for fuel to resupply the drill and and can make a profit, that is teamwork in my book, not botting. So, let that be my final arguement good sir. 

 

Also, you would have to associate defenses accordingly in LUA. Turrets are not much, if the enemy has a swift jet that can zoom around you, or a boardign party lands on board your ship and hijack it. Having robots going up and down on corridors would be a waste of energy as well, as those things run on batteries, making the cost of the ship slowly, but steadily, rising. Unless, you associate a course of events and link DPUs so when unauthorised personel land, only then the bots will get in patrol mode. Which makes my need for shotguns all the more apparent.

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As I said, not being AFK counts as no botting to me. Setting an automated machinery online and going to work, would be botting.

 

So anyone who makes automated defenses is botting and should be banned? NQ have stated that they expect that automated defenses will be built. If I go offline, then what? Do they shut down? If they do, then there's next to no point in building them in the first place. If I am expected to shut them down before quitting, I'm in the same situation; there's no reason to make them. They should run when I go offline, and I should not be punished for doing so, rather, rewarded if I can sell it.

 

Certainly a case-by-case judgement can resolve the issue of fairness vs cheating, but with a large player base, that's not going to work. An anti-cheating mechanism would have to procedurally evaluate each automated construct. So whatever mechanism NQ uses for automation, it has to keep in mind that there are some automatons are legit and should not be stopped.

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So anyone who makes automated defenses is botting and should be banned? NQ have stated that they expect that automated defenses will be built. If I go offline, then what? Do they shut down? If they do, then there's next to no point in building them in the first place. If I am expected to shut them down before quitting, I'm in the same situation; there's no reason to make them. They should run when I go offline, and I should not be punished for doing so, rather, rewarded if I can sell it.

 

Certainly a case-by-case judgement can resolve the issue of fairness vs cheating, but with a large player base, that's not going to work. An anti-cheating mechanism would have to procedurally evaluate each automated construct. So whatever mechanism NQ uses for automation, it has to keep in mind that there are some automatons are legit and should not be stopped.

In the context of the topic good sir. For mining purposes, a "fire and forget" auto-driller would be botting with you AFK.

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I have a feeling that it's not going to be possible to have automated mining that continues to run while players are offline.

That also depends, due to the devs explaining that any created structure, building of ship, is a construct. 

 

But the real problem is, you are all forgeting of the fact that ships run on fuel and a joint won't worth if ithe fuel costs more than what you make out of your mining operation.

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Are we mining fuel in DU or do we acquire fuel by some other means?

 

Any created structure is a construct - that doesn't inherently mean mining constructs will be capable of automated mining while players are offline.

I doubt the the devs will be able to keep up with the desired limits on expansion if players can use constructs to auto-mine even while offline.

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Botting is always a problem, isn't lua the problem, people can just set a macro. 

 

To solve this problem, resources should require time to find them. If you have to spend more time looking for them, while mining is relatively easy, botting isn't a problem. Bots wouldn't have anything to mine, because searching for resources would require human interaction. 

I personally really want automated constructs in the game. I'm pretty sure there are ways to avoid the "botting" part create problems. An easy general fix is to make automated constructs really expensive, just forcing people to use a specific and rare element to make them work. You wouldn't send them around the galaxy so recklessly, they'd get destroyed in no time, and you'd lose more money than you would gain with them

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In the context of the topic good sir. For mining purposes, a "fire and forget" auto-driller would be botting with you AFK.

I agree that it's morally dubious at best, but that's not my point.

 

When I brought up automated defenses instead of automated mining my point was that there shouldn't be a mechanism implemented that prevents scripts from working when the player goes offline. That would be a good solution to prevent abuse of an autominer, but it would prevent another perfectly valid implementation of automatons working when you are offline.

 

Assuming that full automation is possible, and that shutting stuff when the player goes offline isn't reasonable, how would NQ go about implementing an anti-autominer mechanism?

 

Withdrawal of mining API access would do it, but then that prevents the kind of semi-autonomous mining that would probably be considered OK. So that doesn't work too well.

 

Complexity is something I mentioned before, but that's not a guaranteed indicator of illicit botting.

 

Perhaps something called validation time. You have to "log on" on each DPU every so often. Higher tier DPUs allow a greater amount of time between validations. But stuff randomly shutting down or popups could get really annoying.

 

No easy answer unfortunately.

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Are we mining fuel in DU or do we acquire fuel by some other means?

 

Any created structure is a construct - that doesn't inherently mean mining constructs will be capable of automated mining while players are offline.

I doubt the the devs will be able to keep up with the desired limits on expansion if players can use constructs to auto-mine even while offline.

Which is a possibility really, for the DPU to have a limited "bubble" of influence on automation if an in-game wiring system is not included. But then again, fuel has to be processed. I can't see a ship having everything on it. It's the same as building a Desktop, you need certain watts i order for your rig to operate and a certain motherboard architecture. In Dual's terms, extrapelating the terms, the motherboard is your ship, DPUs are the CPUs and GPUs being the drill or drills being utilised. You need a certain wattage to operate such a thing, adding more of those on a ship, would require more power and there's a limit on how many watts can be outpoured before you start needing a nuclear power plant to run a ship, and spoiler alert, nuclear power plants cost. Like, a lot.

 

 

Mining imo in space, should be about quality over quantity, hunting for metals that are rare on worlds, like iridium or rhenium, which can be used in creating weapons and heavier, more sturdier alloys.

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Romulans generate artificial quantum sigularities as fuel for their ships. Calling that processing is probably a stretch. That kind of tech wouldn't require mining for fuel. 

We could be harnessing solar energy for fuel/"gas" rather than mining. And/or collecting solar energy for power/"electricity".

 

I think it's more likely that we would be able to harness solar energy while offline than have automated mining while offline.

I think the devs won't want us to be rapidly depleting the resources we mine from worlds.

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Romulans generate artificial quantum sigularities as fuel for their ships. Calling that processing is probably a stretch. That kind of tech wouldn't require mining for fuel. 

We could be harnessing solar energy for fuel/"gas" rather than mining. And/or collecting solar energy for power/"electricity".

 

I think it's more likely that we would be able to harness solar energy while offline than have automated mining while offline.

I think the devs won't want us to be rapidly depleting the resources we mine from worlds.

I'm just waiting for Cornflake's response on this... I'm too biased to make a proper arguement against this.

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I think maybe everyone is underestimating how difficult it will be to write this autonomous miner. Getting it to do what you want, easy, getting it to not do what you don't want, very hard. A medium level of complexity might get something that could go off and start mining but would require some manual intervention every few min to stop it getting caught in a loop, or suck in a hole or whatever. If you are afk then the bot is vulnerable to other players interfering with it.

 

If scripting complexity carries an in-game cost to running it (eg. power requirement) then the economics of running it break down at a point. A higher complexity system that was economical to run would require smaller specialized units for specific tasks and then the game becomes commanding the fleet of your automated bots. It would be more productive overall, i.e. extract a greater volume of resource, but it would become a much more intensive process where there is a genuine skill in coordination (and not the eve-style sit reading a book and click the screen once a minute, in my opinion this actually makes mining interesting)

 

 

Also, why macro when you can just script?

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But also, just because LUA is the coding engine you can write your bot script in, doesn't mean the API it has access to will be as all encompassing, as some have mentioned to a degree.

My thoughts go to modded Minecraft and the ComputerCraft mod. You had a 'Turtle' miner that you could program and there were rudimentary programs for movement and excavation, but this still required user input eventually both in the addition of more fuel as the process went on and in emptying the ever filling drop inventory.

I do appreciate games that reward creativity and design. If you can design cleverly a way to automate mining through the use of the tools you have but it took effort and materials and design, Why not let them have it?

The argument of it will destroy the economy is an interesting one, but inflation and prices will go as they go. Iron will be useful to build. So even though miners flood the market wastefully with iron, there are those that will buy it up at its cheaper price because they are trying to build a spacestation, or a new player trying to build out their first ship. Who hasn't been on WoW and seen someone flood the market with leathers only to buy them all up and resell them at a higher price? The market will adjust and people will do what they will to make money.

If mining iron no longer becomes profitable, how do they pay to keep the lights on? They'll have to modify and adapt their designs to mine other things, survive on other things. Then iron will go lapse again as another space station or capitol ship is build that destroys the market stock.

I'm not arguing for no moderation, but I don't believe we should limit ingenuity because some people could potentially make autonomous mining bots which can also be hunted for scrap since they don't have a human in them and can be easily fought since they are just following a code. I'm arguing that the same API that could provide mindless mining drones could also provide an unknown host of well thought out and never before seen creative robotics that make you just say, "wow.. I had no idea that was possible with this game." And those moments are not cheaply bought.

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But also, just because LUA is the coding engine you can write your bot script in, doesn't mean the API it has access to will be as all encompassing, as some have mentioned to a degree.

 

 

 

var("x")=1

move(x+1,y,z)

while -= x = -1 do

detectGroundAt(x-1,y,z)

if x == 0 then

fire

if x == -1 then

move(x+1,y,z)

 

 

 

 

An example code I gave to a fellow member out of the top of my head for a rough example of a move/detect/drill droid. If automated parts are to be in the game, they need all of these commands and if detectGroundAt is not in it, another like it will be. 

 

 

And yes, the DPUs for the LUA script should consume power (in other words, fuel). The insane level of automation should be easy for cities, with power plants that produce massive amounts of energy, not ships with a fine-tunned power consumption grid. Ships run on fuel, not prayers.

 

 

Also, why macro when you can just script?

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That assumes that we will have droids capable of equipping drills.

If the devs wish to prevent offline automated mining, all they have to do is implement code that requires player characters' manual interaction.

We will most likely need to have dev-crafted elements in order to mine. And those elements can be dev-coded with restrictions that not only prevent offline mining but also prevent players from modding Lua scripts that would override those restrictions.

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That assumes that we will have droids capable of equipping drills.

If the devs wish to prevent offline automated mining, all they have to do is implement code that requires player characters' manual interaction.

We will most likely need to have dev-crafted elements in order to mine. And those elements can be dev-coded with restrictions that not only prevent offline mining but also prevent players from modding Lua scripts that would override those restrictions.

There's such a mechanism in place. It's called refuelling. And it should be player-only authorised, otherwise even more complications arise other than automining. If a player is online and keeps refuelling the auto-drills, which if they were to function like Empyrion's drills, will be a weapon, able to be fired with script command like the turrets will. That wouldn't be botting, it would be an automated operation with a player interacting with his pet army of mining droids. Yey for player shifts in a mining operation, nay for botting without shifts :)

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I'm sure everyone agrees that actual botting, using external programs to macro and control the mouse, to do thinks afk is bad, awful, and terrible things involving rusty dull razors and vinegar should be done to those people.

 

Should it be allowable via the ingame api is a different question (and I wouldn't call it "botting" as botting is cheating using out of game tools as is a loaded term. Automation is probably a better term to use for the ingame scripting). Because there is an API that can control in game objects it will be a constant battle against ingenious players to prevent automated mining, and that battle will have unintended consequences.

 

I'm practically a socialist so I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the others in that the market will take care of most of these issues, but I have some lingering questions:

 

1) How much of the production chain is one player able to reasonably handle? If I want to build a hover car to zoom around in am I "expected"/able to mine, refine, and construct it all on my own within a couple of sessions? Or is the resource system so vast that I can only participate in a small part of it and have to buy from a dealer? The former would cripple the market, the latter would block a lot of players from building something form voxels.

 

2) How fun is the act of mining itself? Is it like Eve where it is shooting lasers at rocks and is boring as heck (although a good bonding experience for corps, but player bonds should be made over stories, not boredom) or is it more like space engineers where there are ore voxels to be collected? Not as bad as eve but still not that fun. A game is a series of interesting choices. For mining it is the scouting, deciding what to mine and where to mine it. That is the interesting gameplay.

 

3) The new player experience. New players need a hook, a sense of agency. There needs to be a low risk-low reward entry into resource gathering that is renewable around the starting zones (construction grade plastic using organics from hydroponic farms for their first house?).

 

4) Is the production chain discreet based (need all the materials before construction starts), or flow based (x resources consumed every second, not enough resources the construction time increases)?

 

 

Now that I typed it all out I think low-volume resource gathering should be automated, if not for new players then within a couple hours of gameplay. Pick a resource, scout for it, design (or buy) a system to harvest it, and defend it is all very interesting gameplay. While the resource is being collected the player can continue to do interesting things while the miner mines.

 

High volume gathering, I wouldn't ban automation out right, but it would be much more challenging and a lot more involved to keep the systems running smoothly. A lot more hands on work with player(s).

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I'm sure everyone agrees that actual botting, using external programs to macro and control the mouse, to do thinks afk is bad, awful, and terrible things involving rusty dull razors and vinegar should be done to those people.

 

Should it be allowable via the ingame api is a different question (and I wouldn't call it "botting" as botting is cheating using out of game tools as is a loaded term. Automation is probably a better term to use for the ingame scripting). Because there is an API that can control in game objects it will be a constant battle against ingenious players to prevent automated mining, and that battle will have unintended consequences.

 

I'm practically a socialist so I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the others in that the market will take care of most of these issues, but I have some lingering questions:

 

1) How much of the production chain is one player able to reasonably handle? If I want to build a hover car to zoom around in am I "expected"/able to mine, refine, and construct it all on my own within a couple of sessions? Or is the resource system so vast that I can only participate in a small part of it and have to buy from a dealer? The former would cripple the market, the latter would block a lot of players from building something form voxels.

 

2) How fun is the act of mining itself? Is it like Eve where it is shooting lasers at rocks and is boring as heck (although a good bonding experience for corps, but player bonds should be made over stories, not boredom) or is it more like space engineers where there are ore voxels to be collected? Not as bad as eve but still not that fun. A game is a series of interesting choices. For mining it is the scouting, deciding what to mine and where to mine it. That is the interesting gameplay.

 

3) The new player experience. New players need a hook, a sense of agency. There needs to be a low risk-low reward entry into resource gathering that is renewable around the starting zones (construction grade plastic using organics from hydroponic farms for their first house?).

 

4) Is the production chain discreet based (need all the materials before construction starts), or flow based (x resources consumed every second, not enough resources the construction time increases)?

 

 

Now that I typed it all out I think low-volume resource gathering should be automated, if not for new players then within a couple hours of gameplay. Pick a resource, scout for it, design (or buy) a system to harvest it, and defend it is all very interesting gameplay. While the resource is being collected the player can continue to do interesting things while the miner mines.

 

High volume gathering, I wouldn't ban automation out right, but it would be much more challenging and a lot more involved to keep the systems running smoothly. A lot more hands on work with player(s).

Yes, running a mining quarry with bots should be allowed. Mining is a tedious and a chore, let a person do it automatiacally while he can go around the planet and do other stuff, like building at the same time his droids return with the minerals.

 

The thing is, stringing so many DPUs to do such a task for a ship, should be considered an engineering feat, not botting. Of course, the human element should be present, in any way, shape or form. In my humble opinion, there won't be such ships built in game. Cause the cost of running the ship won't match the profit.

 

Making a super-carrier that can store and launch anywher from 100 to 1000 nuclear warheads, that are player-made ballistic missiles, that's another story, cause such ships would be a one time show and chances are, they will be priority target one, not making it out of the battle in one piece.

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I'm practically a socialist so I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm with the others in that the market will take care of most of these issues, but I have some lingering questions:

 

1) How much of the production chain is one player able to reasonably handle? If I want to build a hover car to zoom around in am I "expected"/able to mine, refine, and construct it all on my own within a couple of sessions? Or is the resource system so vast that I can only participate in a small part of it and have to buy from a dealer? The former would cripple the market, the latter would block a lot of players from building something form voxels.

 

2) How fun is the act of mining itself? Is it like Eve where it is shooting lasers at rocks and is boring as heck (although a good bonding experience for corps, but player bonds should be made over stories, not boredom) or is it more like space engineers where there are ore voxels to be collected? Not as bad as eve but still not that fun. A game is a series of interesting choices. For mining it is the scouting, deciding what to mine and where to mine it. That is the interesting gameplay.

 

3) The new player experience. New players need a hook, a sense of agency. There needs to be a low risk-low reward entry into resource gathering that is renewable around the starting zones (construction grade plastic using organics from hydroponic farms for their first house?).

 

4) Is the production chain discreet based (need all the materials before construction starts), or flow based (x resources consumed every second, not enough resources the construction time increases)?

 

 

Now that I typed it all out I think low-volume resource gathering should be automated, if not for new players then within a couple hours of gameplay. Pick a resource, scout for it, design (or buy) a system to harvest it, and defend it is all very interesting gameplay. While the resource is being collected the player can continue to do interesting things while the miner mines.

 

High volume gathering, I wouldn't ban automation out right, but it would be much more challenging and a lot more involved to keep the systems running smoothly. A lot more hands on work with player(s).

 

1) They expect us to take a long time just getting into space so I doubt that it will take just a few sessions to get to a point where you can make nearly everything, at least in the beginning

 

2) We know that the nanoformer (that thing on your hand) will handle gathering and mining and I assume a bigger version of it will be available for ships with specializations so that its better, or can only, at mining or building so yes there will be ore voxels that we need to collect and then refine into the materials we want but you can also use those voxels directly to build so you can make things like a wooden house if you want.

 

3) I would agree but we don't know if they plan on doing resources resets for the arkzone or what their plan is so we will have to wait and see. As all players will be starting on the same planet the area around the arkship could become drained of resources quickly (or not they are large planets) so they may have some way of renewing the resources every so often.

 

4) I would hope flow based as it would allow for partial construction of things without needing everything all at once

 

 

 

The designing and building the system would take some time as scripts and other things would probably need to be written and that does take time though it also depends on what they give us to work with in the beginning of the game.

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