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Some thoughts on stealth ships..


SgtToothpaste

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@Cornflakes


It's pink :D

On the subject though, it's heat sink would have to be flushed, otherwise, you know, boom :P In any case, the devs don't have to make a simulation of real physics here. They could add a module for stealth that if your ship is small it provides a certain range of being undetected. 

Let's say a setcraft can glide through enemy fleets without easily being detected, while a battleship would have a very limited stealth capablity due to its size and reflective surface and mass, don't forget of gyroscopic detection, if we, this time around, can detect black holes thousands of light years away with gyroscopes, imagine what FutureSpace tech could do. If they don't go the way of "hacking stealth" that is. Hacking enemy ships or transmitting a false signal, making you look like a smaller sized ship than you are,  could be used for goading your enemy into an attack.That is stealth as well and if it is not, Ninjas better rebrand themselves as masters of ... something not-stealthy >_>

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@captainTwerkmotor

 

hence why i said "for limited amounts of time" :P

 

 

and have you looked at those interferometers? they are kilometer large devices separated by thousands of kilometers.

and thats because the basic physics dont work out otherwise.

 

for detecting whats essentially cataclysmic events with masses that dwarf our whole solar system.

 

i note my doubts that you could build gravity wave detectors small enough to fit into a spaceship and sensitive enough to detect one.

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@Cornflakes


In the lore they mastered spatial withdrawal mate, I don't think they fell behind in shrinking down tech when it comes to gyroscopic detection of masses :P I still back my suggestion for "Hacking Stealth". Maybe you would have to compromise gun placements on your ship to add arrays O_o ???

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You argue with realistic physics, i argue with realistic physics, dont move the goal posts :P

And its still not gyroscopic but interferometric.

I'd personally scrap all the special case cloaking and stealthing and simplify it to three general characteristics of blocks:

Emissivity:
Every device and block that does /something/ emits radiation over a large spectrum from kilometer wave radio to nanometer gamma-/ x-rays.

including everything inbetween

of course not every device radiates with the same intensity at the same frequencies, but the possible radiation space encompasses pretty much the whole of EM radiation.

with the exact resolution of that emissions being whatever is affordable computing wise.

 

then theres absorption/transmission.

this is again a spectrum graph that defines how much a block absorbs radiation of a given frequency.

some blocks absorb radio waves, some absorb visible light, others absorb IR.

with every block passed the emitted radiation gets dampened more and more.

 

the last factor is reflection

obviously, it defines how much of a given portion of radiation gets (for simplicity i'd say diffusely) reflected from the block.

 

 

then you have one kind of sensor device

passive sensors.

they have certain spectral sensitivities. some sensors are good in RF, some good in UV, others good in X-ray.

some can differentiate single eV differences between gamma rays but can only see gamma rays, others can monitor the whole spectrum at once but cant tell you anything about the kind of radiation they are detecting.

same deal for all of them, just different numbers in their datasheet.

 

you can create an active sensor by combining a passive sensor with some active sender.

you send out radiation which gets reflected and influenced by objects and then received by passive sensor arrays again.

this behaviour creates a lot of support possibilities out of the box, for example target painting and similar methods.

 

 

now we have a few variable sets which are relatively easy to understand but can be used for intricate sensor gameplay.

 

lets say you have an engine core thats emitting a lot of characteristic x-ray radiation.

you dont want to broadcast your drive type, but due to the characteristic radiation spikes its pretty clear to anyone who has a sensor what kind of drive you are using.

so you can encase your drive in a block type that happens to be good at absorbing x-rays.

you now shielded your engine from prying passive sensors, enhancing your stealth capabilities.

 

the same process can be applied to any kind of radiation and block.

if you dont want your enemies analysing your armor plating, place some dampening material over your hull thats tuned to your enemies active scanners so they cant penetrate down to your actual armor layer to tell what kind of armor your ship is using.

 

 

a very stealthy ship would then be one that has very good absorption ratings matched to the equipment it is using and to the sensors which are likely to be encountered.

 

 

counter stealth would then be to find out against which frequencies a given ship is badly shielded and thus can be found with.

say, ship has VHF dampening materials as hull and you use an x-ray scanner instead.

 

 

lots of intelligence and counter intelligence and sensor gameplay without much being hardcoded in by the devs.

encouraging players to design their ships in a smart way.

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@Cornflakes


In any case, they will probably go for a mumbo jump sci-fi means of stealth in the long run. 

"Why the ship is invisible? It's the Neutron Lazorquantumifier, made by professon MacGuffin of South East Hoocares University."


:P

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As a disclaimer, I realize the mechanics of what I'm proposing below may not be entirely "realistic," but I think they're plausible enough to pass muster for a sci-fi game like this and provide compelling gameplay implications.  I’m personally okay with the fact that it’s to some degree sci-fi technobabble loosely based on scientific principles.

 

The basis for these ideas is the fact that there are (currently) two primary ways of detecting things in space: visible light and radio waves.  There are other methods based on inference, but to directly detect an object, it must be visible or emitting radio waves.  With that in mind, I think there should be two different categories of sensors that are generally available:

 

1. Optical Sensors

 

Optical sensors would would only be able to detect objects that within direct line of sight.  These sensors would monitor the surrounding visible space within a certain range for anomalies in the visible light spectrum as well as infrared using advanced video analytics.  The advantage of these sensors would be that they are completely passive; they do not emit anything that could be detected by other sensors.  The disadvantage would be limited range (“visual range”).

 

Optical Countermeasures - Passive

 

One technology for evading optical sensors could be active camouflage.  This could come in the form of an element that bends light around the ship.  It could be counterbalanced by high power consumption and limited in duration by a “heat sink” used to store excess heat to mask the ship’s IR signature.  If the player lets the system run too long, the excess heat could be released in a sort of IR “plume” that would flag the ship over an even longer distance than normal.

 

Optical Countermeasures - Active

 

Another option could be a “dazzler” that blinds targeted optical sensors using a laser, preventing them from pinpointing the construct’s location, but alerting them to its presence.

 

2. Radar

 

What I'm calling radar here could exist as both an active and a passive system.  On the active side, radar would be able to identify objects at long range by bouncing radio waves off of them.  On the passive side, these sensors could also pick up radio waves when emitted by other constructs, either from their own active radar or from communications.  The advantage of these sensors would be their range.  The disadvantage would be the fact that other sensors could detect the radio waves emitted in active mode.

 

Radar Countermeasures - Passive

 

One “stealth” technology for evading radar could be the application of advanced Radar Absorbent Material, or RAM.  Perhaps this could be an actual material that can be added to other voxel materials (depending on how the refining/crafting system works) that would reduce the distance at which they can be detected by radar systems.  This would be expensive initially, but also a permanent solution with no ongoing cost.  

 

Along these lines, some materials without RAM could be inherently more reflective than others, meaning that there could be an inverse relationship between hull strength and radar signature.

 

Perhaps an even more advanced countermeasure could be a shield function that would mitigate incoming radio waves electromagnetically.  This could be even more effective than RAM, at the cost of increased power consumption.

 

Radar Countermeasures - Active

 

A radar “jammer” could be employed, interfering with all radar sensors in a given area (unless the construct has a particular tag).  This would prevent any radar from pinpointing the construct’s location, but would alert them to its presence.

 

Any of these countermeasures could be defeated if a construct broadcasts anything, making “running silent” a legitimate tactic for stealth constructs.

 

However, there could be a third tier of sensor that--while prohibitively expensive and difficult to manufacture--could defeat any of the above countermeasures:

 

3. Quantum Sensors

 

Quantum sensors could detect the gravitational radiation of objects, making it impossible to hide the existence of any mass by masking its electromagnetic signature.  The advantage of these sensors would be their range and resistance to stealth technology.  The disadvantage would be the astronomical initial cost, use of rare materials, and significant power consumption relative to detection range.

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@ CaptainTwerkmotor

My god, that font and color are obnoxious mate, come on.

 

​You mentioned in your first post that a ship's heat signature could not be completely removed in the "absolute zero" of space. Someone else already jumped on that second bit so I won't, but on the topic of heat signature manipulation I think you missed the point. This is one of the things that would make stealth more of an engineering art form than a simple upgrade, you could design your ship to control where it's heat signature is visible from. For example, coat your hull with some kind of stealth composite that prevents latent heat dissipation (this tech already exists irl to a degree,) and place your radiators in strategic positions as to minimize your profile. For example, it could be possible to place them in such a way that they dump the ship's latent heat directly into the drive plume, which is going to be a massive heat target anyway. Careful piloting can conceal your emissions from certain targets, and some kind of silent running mode is not inconceivable; like in Elite where you can close up your radiators for a short time until your ships starts to heat.

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I really like Cornflakes' idea. It's both realistic and allows for interesting game mechanics. Although perhaps such a mechanic should be constrained to a single element so that it's not too computationally expensive for hundreds of thousands block ships.

 

It could be called "EM Wave Dissipator" where the player could actually set what the absorption spectrum graph looks like, while the game constrains the graph to have the same area given a certain power input. More power= more absorption. This way it achieves the same effect without being computationally expensive. It is also balanced in the way that if it uses more power, it will output more IR and so you would also have to compensate by either reducing power or reforming the graph to cover more of the IR in the EM spectrum.

 

With bigger ships, this should be a situation of diminishing returns to a point where if you want to completely cloak a ship of a certain size/power, you need to turn everything but the Wave Disspator and power generators off and then turn absorption up to 1.00 in the IR spectrum. IOW, a break even case.

 

I also like this3ndup's idea of an endgame sensor "Quantum Sensors." These should also be big and really heavy in addition to being expensive. You wouldn't want everyone in a high-tech corporation to be able to put uber-sensors in their fighters, corvettes, and frigates. Perhaps even large and heavy enough that it's too much to be put in a ship, limiting it to stationary constructs.

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@Velenka

 

I'd like to say i think it wouldnt be tooo large of a strain on the system

(using small amounts of raycasts wpithout reflections where you only have to include blocks along a single line and can make generalisations with large amounts of identical blocks, summing them up to one block of thickness x instead of x blocks with thickness 1)

But you are probably right.

 

I also have boatloads more of that with diagrams, fake sources for flares and disguises and math and gameplay around angular resolution, which i'd post here as well if someone would be interested. :D

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here's a thought. Find an asteroid made of ice. Hollow it out and hide your ship inside it. Put thrusters on the outside and point it where you want it to go. Put a slight spin on it to make it look natural then eject the thrusters. Power down your ship so that you only have life support on and drift to your target. If it's a planet you can just let the asteroid burn up around you on entry then follow the same trajectory until you are below sensor altitude. 

 

Most, if not all, emissions from your ship should be masked or disguised by the asteroid.

 

Would this work or am I missing something? 

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Here's a thought. Find an asteroid made of ice. Hollow it out and hide your ship inside it. Put thrusters on the outside and point it where you want it to go. Put a slight spin on it to make it look natural then eject the thrusters. Power down your ship so that you only have life support on and drift to your target. If it's a planet you can just let the asteroid burn up around you on entry then follow the same trajectory until you are below sensor altitude. 

 

Most, if not all, emissions from your ship should be masked or disguised by the asteroid.

 

Would this work or am I missing something? 

No cellestial object will be moveable. You would be like Solid Snake, walking with a cardboard box. You would stand out.

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1) Visual cloak (look ma a romulan warbird!). Lots of energy needed to do this -- it takes the gravitational pull of a singularity to bend light like that.

Termodynamics. Learn them.

 

You can't hide a ship in the absolute zero temperature of the vacuum. And mAss Effect's physics on the Normandy are bullshit, same goes for Star Trek Romulan stealth. Your HEAT cannot be contained on a ship for a prolonged period of time as travelling through space requires. So no, "Heat Stealth " is impossible in itself.

 

The Star Trek Romulan Cloaking Device is not bullshit, because in that sci-fi universe they have the ability to warp space. The warp drive, remember? What the Cloaking Device does is a space warp. When it is cloaked, the ship is not really physically there except for barely enough that they can use their sensors to see the real universe. I'm not sure what they do with the heat. But since Romulan ships use artificial captive singularities for their power and drive, they probably figured out how to dump the extra heat into that.

 

Same deal for Mass Effect. When you have speculative science of things that we don't KNOW are impossible, they're not bullshit. They're just sci-fi.

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The Star Trek Romulan Cloaking Device is not bullshit, because in that sci-fi universe they have the ability to warp space. The warp drive, remember? What the Cloaking Device does is a space warp. When it is cloaked, the ship is not really physically there except for barely enough that they can use their sensors to see the real universe. I'm not sure what they do with the heat. But since Romulan ships use artificial captive singularities for their power and drive, they probably figured out how to dump the extra heat into that.

 

Same deal for Mass Effect. When you have speculative science of things that we don't KNOW are impossible, they're not bullshit. They're just sci-fi.

hey bruh, quick question. If people can't see your thermal signature when you are cloaked, what do you think happens to he Romulans in the "invisibilty cloak" ? And FYI, yes, you can't see anything during warp (supposedly, we haven't experimented in it yet :P).

 

 

Yes, go for stealth ships. I hope you are the Daredevil equivalent of spaceship captain, cause you ain't gonna see anything. xD

 

 

And don't take star trek's lore seriously. Picard and Kirk have violated the Prime Directive so much, it's a running joke at this point. Star Trek doesn't even take into consideration its own lore, let alone real physics.

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Mass Effects "cloak" made perfect sense the way described, besides the fact that they still could use their nuclear-death-beam-of-doom antimatter engines wile staying cloaked.

Shame, *Ding dong* Shame, *Ding Dong* Shame. *Ding Dong*

 

They used Ezzo/Dark Matter for their engines. Same Ezzo used by the Mages--I mean Biotics!-- to do space magic voodoo singularities :P

 

 

Mass Effect : It wasn't just the ending of the trilogy that didn't make sense :V

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Shame, *Ding dong* Shame, *Ding Dong* Shame. *Ding Dong*

 

They used Ezzo/Dark Matter for their engines. Same Ezzo used by the Mages--I mean Biotics!-- to do space magic voodoo singularities :P

 

 

Mass Effect : It wasn't just the ending of the trilogy that didn't make sense :V

 

"the normandys main propulsion is provided by four large antiproton thrusters"

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Normandy_SR-2

 

as with every military ship in the mass effect universe :P

 

and as its clearly visible in that cutscene they dont deactivate them when cloaked

https://youtu.be/TNJ4QstURcQ?t=1m10s

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"the normandys main propulsion is provided by four large antiproton thrusters"

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Normandy_SR-2

 

as with every military ship in the mass effect universe :P

 

and as its clearly visible in that cutscene they dont deactivate them when cloaked

https://youtu.be/TNJ4QstURcQ?t=1m10s

Wait, Normandy 1 or the one that Cerberus rebuilt? Cause I'm pretty sure 1 was powered by Ezzo witchcraft and it was a "prototype".

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Wait, Normandy 1 or the one that Cerberus rebuilt? Cause I'm pretty sure 1 was powered by Ezzo witchcraft and it was a "prototype".

 

they both had the gravity drive core as supplementary drive system, they both also have antimatter engines.

as is clearly visible when you look at them from behind :P

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they both had the gravity drive core as supplementary drive system, they both also have antimatter engines.

as is clearly visible when you look at them from behind :P

I'm grinding my katana for my seppuku. I am shamed. I would ask for someone to be there for the harakiri business, but I won't give anyone that pleasure. 

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Never understood why Space ships needed to have an actual cloak where they were invisible. Space is so large, the chance of even getting close enough to see most ships is negligible. I'm all for stealth so long as it is just radar based, which like Gingerdeaman said, is similar to the Normandy/B-2.

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i think its important to note the normandy's stealth is the same kind of steal used by the b-52. Same as in its hidden from radar....but if you look out your window on the left you can see the massive ship flying by

As Joker said : "Nobody will notice us as long as you don't start chanting the Russian national anthem" , a clever hommage to the Red OComber book by Tom Clancy.

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