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Self-Destruction - KA-BOUM!!!!! - Last Resort for Unarmed Ships Under Attack to Prevent Looting


Hirnsausen
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Amazing how long you all stick to my suggestion. I admit, I never expected such a big interest in the discussion of a Self-Detonation Device. Sees, My suggestion trul gets attention.

Even so much attention, that other players (like you) start to develop possible scenarios involving the Self Destruction Device, and strategies. Cool! I decided to give you a Blue Heart for your assistance. Yes, I agree with you, such a SDD would create possibilities for new strategies. I want to thank you cordially for helping to perfectionalize such an SSD. The scenarious you created are interesting, and I will incorporate them into some more suggestios for the SSD. When the dveloers read your two scenarios and consider an SSD, they too will use your two scenarios as help to find ways what is possible and what not. Like, can an SSD harm any uninvolved ship, and such. Good point I like it, if other players are constructive and help developing the SSD. Ummm, what other scenarios could you think of?  The more scenarios, the better. Good ones, bad ones - all is welcme.

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Those two scenarios were the bad ones, and they were obvious from the start, but it occurred to me that you may not have realized so I elected to point them out to you.

 

-If you leave loot, the pirates will just use disposable element-ships to either blow up and kill you, or get you to kill yourself. This invalidates all existing weapons in piracy as anything more than a trigger for the ssd, as well as any reason to design a ship for piracy that isn't just a disjointed bundle of floating elements that constitute the bare minimum needed to run your slow hauler down and start shooting at it.

 

-If you don't leave loot, you'll still be shot and/or blown up by people in disposable element-ships, but instead of people actually doing it for the fun of pirating or the prospect of loot (as you will be entirely invalidating the option of playing as a pirate with this, because the vast majority of anyone hauling will just bring an ssd instead of guns), you will be losing your stuff because they think its funny to ruin your day by destroying your stuff and/or because they have decided that a location is theirs and you aren't allowed to be in it.

 

If you were just asking to blow yourself to bits, and your wreck was still loot-able then this would be a passable idea, the pirates would still have their fun chasing you, and they'd still have their reward for all of the time and materials invested in trying to catch you. As is though you are quite plainly just asking for a super-weapon to vengefully destroy their ships, and the amount of thought you seem to have put in to it looks as though it amounts to "I don't like people who shoot at me, therefore I should be allowed to destroy their ship(s) immediately if I am going to lose my ship." 

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Why don't you suggest to simply remove guns from the game? This will make game fair for PvE players because they won't be gunked anymore and for PvP players, as they no longer be forced to create ways to find PvP in a game where the only way to find a target is a radar that sees only under your nose.

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I just refer to what PVP lovers in this thread here stated: that they prefer the challenge to hunt and kill ships with weapons, ships of other PVP players. That unarmed vessels are not really their focus. Unless these were lies of PVP players, my idea would be a good one, as the SSD would make just unarmed ships in PVP space safer. The PVP players can still kill each other, and I won't ever stop it. So, I do not see why the PVP lobby has so many fears of SSD-equipped ships (which actually equals our fear of armed ships so it is just and fair). Unless, their arguments were just lies, and with lies you can't have a proper discussion.

But i want to trust them, and so I accept their argument that they not really look for unarmed ships. So, why so much resistance against SSDs if that would not affect at all their main target ships - other PVP ships? And thus I continue to promote my suggestion.

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What you are asking for isn't a challenge because someone just gets blown up with no skill/luck involved. 

 

It isn't balanced because it is a single weapon that 1-hit kills anything while any other weapons typically take dozens of shots at minimum to just wear down an equivalently sized shield. 

 

PvP players like a fight, but this will remove that fight for the pirates. Someone will fire a shot, someone will trigger an ssd, and it will all be done. 

 

The issue with the ssd idea as you have explained it is that you just want an ill conceived method of guaranteed punishment for pvp players that shoot at you when you chose to make yourself a valid pvp target.

 

There are currently already more than enough ways to easily avoid having to deal with pirates at all with almost no effort, risk, or investment, you don't need a device who's only purpose is to make the game less fun for other people because you don't feel like using anything you already have.

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8 hours ago, Taelessael said:

...

 

PvP players like a fight, but this will remove that fight for the pirates. Someone will fire a shot, someone will trigger an ssd, and it will all be done. 

 

...

Any action must have a risk, not just on the side of the victim. So why bothering then to unprovokedly attack peaceful ships? Stick to attacking other armed ships, and nothing like that will happen to you. As surprisingly simple as that.

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15 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

Any action must have a risk, not just on the side of the victim. So why bothering then to unprovokedly attack peaceful ships? Stick to attacking other armed ships, and nothing like that will happen to you. As surprisingly simple as that.

 

There's a difference between risk of picking a fight with an armed target, and the guaranteed loss of a construct that will result from trying to play pirate in a sandbox-game where you are supposed to be able to play pirate, but where near about everything you may ever want to pirate is armed with an instant-kill weapon. 

 

We've also been over the whole "risk" bologna. Pirates already face risk in the form of people shooting back. You are aware that you or allies can use the currently available weapons to defend yourself and force pirates to risk losing their ships, but you refuse to fit normal weapons, or get any kind of help from people with said normal weapons, and are thus actively choosing to remove the risk for any pirate that should go after you.

 

Finally, piracy is a legitimate play-style in DU. It is a big investment to undertake, with a lot of risk, and the unique potential to have no reward at all. None the less, it is easily prevented with all of a few minutes worth of effort (at most), no guns, no expensive fuels, but it seems as though you don't want to put in even that much work in game to deal with them. 

 

The sole purpose of the device you are asking for is to take away someone else's fun in a game, to punish them, because you don't like them doing something they are supposed to be able to do. This is not acceptable, and no amount of trying to spin it as "balance" or "risk" or "challenge" will ever change that.

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2 hours ago, Taelessael said:

...
Pirates already face risk in the form of people shooting back.
...
 

So, because they face risks if they would attack armed ships, you want that we unarmed, peaceful players should be the easy dish for you with no risk? Come on, you can do better. ?

When Somali pirates attack peaceful, unarmed bog ships with their arms, those ships use water to fight back, being able to siink those small pirate vessels. I know you do not like that these big ships fight back pirates, but that is how it is. They do not use weapons like the Somali pirates do. And there is no one whould tell these big ships that they must not defend with methods that are not using weapons.

So, you could of course write to the UN and too all ship owners and try banning that they defend themselves as that would be unfair to pirates.

But meanwhile, while you probably do that, I will go on and let the developers know that there are unusued options to put some hot chili pepper into the existing PVP. Self-destruction devices are a cool way to defend oneself, or just to make you Somali pirates think twice. It would surel add much needed spice to the game, and distribute the risks more evenly. A good game needs a more evenly distribution of risk. No "easy dishes" for Somali pirates...   ?

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1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

...

So, you could of course write to the UN and too all ship owners and try banning that they defend themselves as that would be unfair to pirates.

...

 

Please don't insult me with the suggestion that I'd support real-life pirates. DU is a game, people respawn, stuff is easily replaced, and people are allowed to play pirate so that someone else can play hero.

 

1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

So, because they face risks if they would attack armed ships, you want that we unarmed, peaceful players should be the easy dish for you with no risk? Come on, you can do better.

...

 

We've been over this, you can buy and fit weapons to your ship, or pay for security. You are actively choosing not to.

 

1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

...

When Somali pirates attack peaceful, unarmed bog ships with their arms, those ships use water to fight back, being able to siink those small pirate vessels. I know you do not like that these big ships fight back pirates, but that is how it is. They do not use weapons like the Somali pirates do. And there is no one whould tell these big ships that they must not defend with methods that are not using weapons.

...

 

They don't have lethal weapons for legal/insurance reasons, not because they don't like regular weapons. Neither insurance or law is an issue in DU.

 

Of note though, regular weapons may be more difficult in real life to bring on a cargo-ship, but bringing nuclear weapon to blow yourself up with in order to take out some guys with guns in a speed-boat is just absurd.

 

Also, please stop telling the guy that is telling you to bring guns like everyone else that he doesn't want you or anyone else to defend themselves from pirates. 

 

1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

... or just to make you Somali pirates think twice. It would surel add much needed spice to the game, and distribute the risks more evenly...

 

Still currently a mission-runner, still not currently an in-game a pirate.

 

1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

...

It would surel add much needed spice to the game, and distribute the risks more evenly. A good game needs a more evenly distribution of risk. No "easy dishes" for Somali pirates...   ?

 

Again, the sole purpose of the device you are asking for is to take away someone else's fun in a game, to punish them, because you don't like them doing something they are supposed to be able to do. This is not acceptable, and no amount of trying to spin it as "balance" or "risk" or "challenge" will ever change that.

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I am not understanding a number of things you are mentioning.

You said I should pay money. To whom, and why? Do you mean I must pay money because I am using public space? Like the "protection money" that criminals demand from their victims?

You also indicated that you are a pirate who - somehow - looks down to other priates, you would feel "insulted". You act like a pirate, yet you feel insulted when compared with a pirate. It may come as a big surprise to you, but it is the actions we do, not where we do them, that defines us as what we are. Did you know that? Though I give you a point - in real life, we have organized criminals who also don't like to be called "criminals" but see themselves as "honorable". Somewhere in Italy, I think, are many of those, but als to a good extend worldwide.  So I kinda unerstand that while being a pirate you don't want to be called a pirate.

But I am seeing that you mention you are currently running missions and not actngin piracy Well, my respect here, and my above argument won't be valid therefore until or unless you do piracy (again or first time).

There are many more points I would like to refer inside your last posting, but #metoo need to do some mission now ingame. So see youl later, looking forward for your next posting. Stay safe and healthy.

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On 1/7/2022 at 1:28 PM, Hirnsausen said:

...You said I should pay money. To whom, and why? Do you mean I must pay money because I am using public space? Like the "protection money" that criminals demand from their victims?

...

 

Most people know that if they don't pay their employees, they are very likely to not have employees for very long, or possibly ever again afterward.

 

On 1/7/2022 at 1:28 PM, Hirnsausen said:

You also indicated that you are a pirate who - somehow - looks down to other priates, you would feel "insulted". You act like a pirate, yet you feel insulted when compared with a pirate. It may come as a big surprise to you, but it is the actions we do, not where we do them, that defines us as what we are...

...

I kinda unerstand that while being a pirate you don't want to be called a pirate.

But I am seeing that you mention you are currently running missions and not actngin piracy Well, my respect here, and my above argument won't be valid therefore until or unless you do piracy (again or first time).

 

You say I am a pirate not because of any actual engagement in piracy, but because I recognize that in a game, people like to play as heroes and villains, and that neither is all that possible if someone/something isn't playing the opposing side? You may want to actually go look up the definitions of both "action" and "pirate", the whole "people I disagree with are (insert name of real-world bad-guy-group here) because I disagree with them and not for their actual actions" argument is just childish, and anyone that pays attention can typically see right through it.

 

I do however appreciate that you were so quick to drag the thread through the mud again with the "pirate" insult after I suggested that I don't like it, instead of trying to continue to defend your "take the fun from people I don't like" weapon. That you have responded in such a manner suggests quite strongly that you know your weapon doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny, and that you want to try to get me to leave this particular thread so I will stop pointing out why your suggested new wildly imbalanced weapon of mass destruction should not be implemented.

 

Now I just need to to work on realistically feigning a vulnerability sooner, but that isn't the point of this thread...

 

The point of this thread is that you were asking for a weapon the sole purpose of which is to take away someone else's fun in a game, because you don't like them doing something they are supposed to be able to do, even though you are already more than capable of easily circumventing their ability to do anything to you. This is not acceptable, and no amount of trying to spin it as "balance" or "risk" or "challenge" will ever change that.

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On 1/8/2022 at 1:00 AM, Taelessael said:

The point of this thread is that you were asking for a weapon the sole purpose of which is to take away someone else's fun in a game, because you don't like them doing something they are supposed to be able to do, even though you are already more than capable of easily circumventing their ability to do anything to you. This is not acceptable, and no amount of trying to spin it as "balance" or "risk" or "challenge" will ever change that.

Just give up on him, he is beyond reason

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On 1/7/2022 at 7:00 PM, Taelessael said:

 

Most people know that if they don't play their employees, they are very likely to not have employees for very long, or possibly ever again afterward.

 

The point of this thread is that you were asking for a weapon the sole purpose of which is to take away someone else's fun in a game

Hi. Please do not see it as an insult that I have a very different opinion than you, or that I am a non-aggressive player, or that I refer to your arguments and counter them easily. There is no insult in any of that. Just regular discussion.

I am, in real life, actually an employer. But I never do play my employees, as I respect them. For me, I have better ways to keep employees than to play them. I am not a triky person.

And in regards to "taking away someone"s fun" - do you really think, it is fun when another player unprovokedly starts to destroy your ship and take away all you have? I think, your argument here is a very selfish, and indicates a highly self-centered way of thinking. It may come to a surprise to you, but it is not all about your own fun. A good game must give fun to ALL players. Take a minute or two, lean back, close your eyes and think about it. Could it be that I am right..?

Fly and stay safe and healthy.

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17 hours ago, Lethys said:

Just give up on him, he is beyond reason

 

I'm still having fun, but I do suppose it is probably just annoying everyone else at this point with this thread continuing. My apologies for that, I will wrap up my part and we can let better ideas bury this one at the bottom of the list.

 

5 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

Hi. Please do not see it as an insult that I have a very different opinion than you, or that I am a non-aggressive player, or that I refer to your arguments and counter them easily. There is no insult in any of that. Just regular discussion.

 

Which counter your are referencing? Is it the one where you ignore any reason anyone else gives you about how this is a bad idea and claim that you deserve a WMD to 1-shot other people's ships with because you don't want to fit other weapons? Or the one where you call someone a pirate without any regard to their actual engagement in piracy because you think they don't like being called that? The second was me leading you in to showing that you know the first is wrong, and that you'd rather insult your opponents until they go away because you cant properly refute their arguments in a logical manner. This thread is well past done, and I won't play with you in it any more because it has occurred to me that its continuation is just annoying other people on the board, but if you want to keep posting, you may as well take the time to clarify which counter you are referencing. 

 

5 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

I am, in real life, actually an employer. But I never do play my employees, as I respect them. For me, I have better ways to keep employees than to play them. I am not a triky person.

 

I will admit, you got me there, I let auto-correct adjust things to say "play your employees" instead of "pay your employees". I will correct this in the post you referenced.

 

Food for thought though, you obviously know what I meant or you wouldn't have called yourself an employer, you should probably also try explaining why you cant pay in-game employees to defend you from pirates instead of just trying to distract from that concept by pointing out spelling/grammatical problems.

 

5 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

And in regards to "taking away someone"s fun" - do you really think, it is fun when another player unprovokedly starts to destroy your ship and take away all you have?

 

We've been over this, it is called risk. Greater risks bring greater reward, and it is entirely your fault if you choose to give them that reward without that risk.  

 

5 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

I think, your argument here is a very selfish, and indicates a highly self-centered way of thinking. It may come to a surprise to you, but it is not all about your own fun. A good game must give fun to ALL players. Take a minute or two, lean back, close your eyes and think about it. Could it be that I am right..?

 

You should ask that question again while looking in a mirror. I am a mission runner, the person that pirates are trying to blow up and take everything from. If this were about me wanting something for myself, should I not then agree with you? I've considered this quite thoroughly, probably a lot more than it deserves, and having looked at it long and hard from every point of view I could think of I've concluded that there is no way this idea as you have described it isn't a bad one.

 

But since you insist on my selfishness: I have flown more than 150 missions through pvp space, never once having fired a shot, never once getting shot at, all of them so clear of any pirate interference that I have on occasion flown them at low and easily catchable speeds just so that I would have the time to go to work, or to movies, or to run errands for hours on end. Your wmd wont affect my gameplay directly either way. It will however affect it indirectly by alienating the pvp crowd, chasing off players that I could enjoy interacting with, and that would subsequently stop paying subscriptions that help keep the game I like going. So, I can't say my intentions are totally and absolutely clear of self-interest, but of the two of us I seem to be the one that doesn't want to drive out an entire section of the game's player-base just to remove a small bit of risk from my own gameplay, so maybe you should go have a chat with that mirror again. You don't need a weapon who's only purpose is to take other players fun out of the game just because you don't like them playing in a way they are supposed to be able to play. 

 

Your initial post asks for a weapon that guarantees instant 100% loss on the part of all parties, no salvage, no loot, no recovering your ship later, the weapon just deletes everything in its blast radius from the game without regard as to what it was doing or how it was or was not involved, hostile or otherwise. Both PvE and PvP players have told you how and why this is overpowered, unnecessary, and bad. Its only purpose is malicious and you know it, and you are wrong for continuing to push it as you have, not that anyone will do anything about it.

 

So, much fun as I am still having, we've annoyed everyone long enough with this thread's continuation. Make your final post if you must, I'll still read it, but it is long past time this bad idea stopped distracting from better ones and was left ignored at the bottom of the thread list, so don't expect a response. 

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3 hours ago, Taelessael said:

I'm still having fun, but I do suppose it is probably just annoying everyone else at this point with this thread continuing. My apologies for that, I will wrap up my part and we can let better ideas bury this one at the bottom of the list.

Oh by any means, have fun and continue if you like. It won't get you anywhere as this guy can't even begin to understand thé problems with His "idea" let alone see why his opinion is only one of many and not the only way how ppl can play this game. 

 

I too have a lot of fun reading this thread and your very good counters. And ofc his very bad arguments lol

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16 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

That's exactly my way of thinking about the PVP lobby. ?
I see them as totally self-centered in their view.

the pvp lobby is just a bunch of short sighted people who only wanna make others suffer by shooting them. 

as for your 'self-destruct' option, that alone is dumb. a better option will be a 'scuttling' idea. where you build a ship with 'scuttle' charges. think of it as planted C4 elements that allow you to blow up your ship for you. the purpose would be more useful if they re-enabled the element restore life. where the scuttled elements lose 2 uses over the 1 from being broken from combat. 

however you can still currently just delete all your cargo, and remove element on big things like AGG, warp drives, weapons, engines etc mid combat. the issue pvp players have is because what they do is mostly pointless in a game where it should have meaning. so they are a bit angry when their only 'income' for said activity is easily deleted by another player when they feel they earned it.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/12/2022 at 5:22 AM, Charlotte said:

the pvp lobby is just a bunch of short sighted people who only wanna make others suffer by shooting them. 

as for your 'self-destruct' option, that alone is dumb. a better option will be a 'scuttling' idea. where you build a ship with 'scuttle' charges. think of it as planted C4 elements that allow you to blow up your ship for you. the purpose would be more useful if they re-enabled the element restore life. where the scuttled elements lose 2 uses over the 1 from being broken from combat. 

however you can still currently just delete all your cargo, and remove element on big things like AGG, warp drives, weapons, engines etc mid combat. the issue pvp players have is because what they do is mostly pointless in a game where it should have meaning. so they are a bit angry when their only 'income' for said activity is easily deleted by another player when they feel they earned it.

Hi. No, you did not understand what my suggestion is about: It is about adding more risk for pirates to attack unarmed ships. It is unfair if only one side has guns and knows how to use them with their fast ships, when the other side in slow ship, unarmed or without experience in aggression bears all the risk and frustration alone. A SDD is not an offensive weapon, yet it triggers our PVP lobby to make one after the other comment saying they do not want it. The more they post against it, the more it shows me that a SDD would indeed distribute the risks more evenly to both sies - something they absolutely don't want.   ? ? ?

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  • 1 month later...

I support the same destructive Which completely destroys the entire ship, the entire cargo and all elements.

 

The ship belongs to me I have the right to do what I want with it.

 

self-destruction Initiates core destruction

nothing can be recovered from the wreckage

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/23/2022 at 6:38 AM, Vazqez said:

I support the same destructive Which completely destroys the entire ship, the entire cargo and all elements.

 

The ship belongs to me I have the right to do what I want with it.

 

self-destruction Initiates core destruction

nothing can be recovered from the wreckage

?

And even better, since PVP players are always so loud saying that they would love the risk, such a self-destruction would also tear into nearby ships, usually PVP criminals. Yes, PVP is risky, as they say - so be it!

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