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NQ Pls address in the near future.

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5 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

Just think of them as pirates.

 

And aren't there mechanics in the game already that balance that kinda thing? For example if they're using a big L or M ship, then you can outrange them with S / XS ship with if you guys have similar weapons / radars (you'll need a gunner of course). And if they're using small ships, just make bigger ships that can outtank them.

 

Not to mention radars, can't you see them from 400km away (way outside any gun's range) already?

Not really, because the ships will be solely min/maxed to destroy, whereas the non pvpers will be trying to do something work related which will reduce their effectiveness and hence make them basically toast.

Also, even at 29,999 speed you can be targeted and destroyed by missiles that travel faster than DU's light speed from ships you can't even see... so having an escort is meaningless.

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7 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

talking about "putting it together" time which doesn't really say anything since most of the time is coming from manufacturing them

?? press J to check the markets. 

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Just now, GraXXoR said:

Not really, because the ships will be solely min/maxed to destroy, but the non pvpers will be trying to do something work related which will reduce their effectiveness.

Also, even at 29,999 speed you can be targeted and destroyed by missiles from a ship you can't even see... so having an escort is meaningless.

Yeah any fully dedicated-for-combat ship will outperform any non-combat ship in combat, it is just what it is I guess. Can't you see the pirate first with radar though? Because even at 30,000kmh it still takes a few seconds to reach radar lockon range, unless there's really bad lag I guess

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

?? press J to check the markets. 

Do tell me how 2 weeks ago, which is barely 5 days after beta release, people already made railguns and are selling them in the market. And where's the image of this XS ship with railgun which only took you 30 mins to make? I don't like accusing people but it seems more and more like you're just mad that some pirates destroyed you because you didn't take necessary precautions, and now you're mad at people who are trying to tell you what you can do, and possibly resort to lying to win an argument

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2 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

Do tell me how 2 weeks ago, which is barely 5 days after beta release, people already made railguns and are selling them in the market. And where's the image of this XS ship with railgun which only took you 30 mins to make? I don't like accusing people but it seems more and more like you're just mad that some pirates destroyed you because you didn't take necessary precautions, and now you're mad at people who are trying to tell you what you can do, and possibly resort to lying to win an argument

Does it really matter how i got them? 

Wont my example be valid for now up into the future? 

 

Pirates will not be poor ppl, at least not after 1 successful run. 

They can easily buy all their gear. 

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Just now, joaocordeiro said:

Does it really matter how i got them? 

Wont my example be valid for now up into the future? 

 

Pirates will not be poor ppl, at least not after 1 successful run. 

They can easily buy all their gear. 

It matters to the validity of your argument because you said you got them 2 weeks ago, "easy" in only 30 minutes which is almost impossible, but most importantly you used that example to convince people that an XS core ship with an L railgun and all needed equipment / engines / fuels can be feasible and even outrun / outmaneuver proper bigger ships. If you can't prove it then your argument is moot

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Just now, joaocordeiro said:

Check private message. 

Did, and like I said even so it's unfeasible for an XS core ship with all kind of L sized equipment to outmaneuver or outrun a properly-equipped bigger ship, unless the bigger ship is poorly made

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Just now, lucagrabacr said:

Did, and like I said even so it's unfeasible for an XS core ship with all kind of L sized equipment to outmaneuver or outrun a properly-equipped bigger ship, unless the bigger ship is poorly made

It all depends on how much abusive you make the design.

How many L space engines can you put on a XS face?

Only a also cubic S core also full of L space engines will be able to catch up. 

If you add to that the glitches of space movement, the pvp border and the huge acelaration changes, its nearly impossible to kill a XS core unless the guy does not know how to play

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3 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

It all depends on how much abusive you make the design.

How many L space engines can you put on a XS face?

Only a also cubic S core also full of L space engines will be able to catch up. 

If you add to that the glitches of space movement, the pvp border and the huge acelaration changes, its nearly impossible to kill a XS core unless the guy does not know how to play

Well that argument is anecdotal unless there's hard proof / statistics which show that a properly made bigger ship can't outrun an XS core ship full with L sized equipment. What I'm saying is if they remove the different lockon ranges mechanic, there will be bigger troubles and more abuses as huge cubes of death will be even harder to counter - with the current mechanics it is inconvenient to counter an XS core pirate, but at least there are feasible countermeasures (bring gunner, bring XS core ship with railgun, make your ship thicker, choose a different route, or have someone clear your path first with a smaller ship, as even the most dedicated pirates can't possibly stay online 24/7)

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8 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

Well that argument is anecdotal unless there's hard proof / statistics which show that a properly made bigger ship can't outrun an XS core ship full with L sized equipment. What I'm saying is if they remove the different lockon ranges mechanic, there will be bigger troubles and more abuses as huge cubes of death will be even harder to counter - with the current mechanics it is inconvenient to counter an XS core pirate, but at least there are feasible countermeasures (bring gunner, bring XS core ship with railgun, make your ship thicker, choose a different route, or have someone clear your path first with a smaller ship, as even the most dedicated pirates can't possibly stay online 24/7)

The op is complaining because he probably got killed by one of this Meta ships. 

I know ppl that lost ships to pirates using meta ships and i know pirates who are winning because they use meta ships. 

 

You have the right to not belive it. But the op and most ppl here have no interest in disbelief on facts that we have seen. 

 

Get your self a S core with the your proper design. And go tank the pirates on ion, theoma, jago. Then tell us how it went. 

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9 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

The op is complaining because he probably got killed buy one of this Meta ships. 

I know ppl that lost ships to pirates using meta ships and i know pirates who are winning because they use meta ships. 

 

You have the right to not belive it. But the op and most ppl here have no interest in disbelief of on facts that we have seen. 

 

Get your self a S core with the your proper design. And go tank the pirates on ion, theoma, jago. Then tell us how it went. 

Like I said, current mechanics makes it inconvenient to freight in PvP zones, but that's by design as PvP zones aren't meant to be safe havens, and removing different lockon ranges mechanic like you suggested will only make more problems.

 

Tanking is only a part of my suggestions, I suggested; bring a gunner, bring an XS core ship, take a different route, or don't go to dangerous zones at all if you don't have gunners / friends protecting you.

 

I'm all for more balancing if there are imbalance found, but removing different lockon ranges is totally not the answer.

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4 hours ago, lucagrabacr said:

It is a planned feature so it's a valid example.

 

And to my previous point, here's my XS ship next to my L railgun, see how unfeasible it would be to get an XS ship properly working with an L railgun attached?

 

That doesn't include fuel tanks, engines, L radar and gunner seat, plus all the piloting elements needed to move them

watch this video, this is the current meta: 

 

discussing XS qube ship with 2 large railguns 

 

As a bigger ship you can't fight them at all 

 

 

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Wow PvP groupies derailed a thread that was supposed to be about macro level PvP mechanics, as different updates hit.  To having a little spat about micro level ship optimization/balance, that fundamentally won’t change how opposing groups will interact with each other in any way.   PvP builds will just VERY quickly find and adjust to a new meta, that interacts with all play styles the same way the current meta does. (Against other PvP groups they’ll have clone ships against each other, against non-specialized combat ships they still have major advantages).

 

—————

 

OP is interested in seeing  if the current safe zones will be changing and how.  For instance we know most planets won’t be atmospheric safe zones eventually.  We don’t know if Alioth/Thades /Madis will be changing.  We also don’t know if territories claimed by players can enable the current weapons lock.  Which fundamentally changes with how almost all groups will be interacting with the entire system.

 

the op cares about how starter players will be interacting  with the world, as PvP rules change.  It’s hard enough for a new player to figure out how to get into orbit, and off sanctuary.  Requiring both atmospheric radars + weapons, and space radar + weapons is a bit much.  Considering the best thing the game has as bait/hook/sinker to get people in is getting newbies to experience the scale the game operates at by getting them to another planet on their own power.

 

likewise there are also some really silly balance things to be asking like how laughably skewed downwards the price of “high end PvP reward ores” will be, considering they have the current risk treatment that PvE reward ores have ATM.  And people are predictably hoarding those resources, while the risk for them are at the cheapest they ever will be.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, NilinChan said:

watch this video, this is the current meta: 

 

discussing XS qube ship with 2 large railguns 

 

 

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, NilinChan said:

watch this video, this is the current meta: 

 

discussing XS qube ship with 2 large railguns 

 

 

 

 

I've watched some myself but haven't watched this 1. Thanks for the link

 

We can't see in the video how fast the cube accelerated toward that speed compared to the other ship (since he was already at 28k kmh in the beginning of the recording) so I still stand by my argument that if the other ship was built well enough the other guy could've probably changed course and outrun the cube once he saw it in the radar (which apparently only has few space thrusters looking at the video), especially since with very little speed difference like that (both are traveling near 30k kmh) it would've taken the cube quite a while to catch up to the freighter, and the freighter pilot would've seen it coming minutes away

 

Example: If the cube has MAX amount of forward thruster for example, then any ship that is not a cube with similar amount of forward thruster will always be faster because it won't be carrying a cube of blocks (except when it's full of cargo maybe). But the bigger you go the more thrust:weight ratio you can have, so if you're on an S core ship for example, yes you will be outranged even more, but you'll have more acceleration given you construct your ship for acceleration. I'm just it's not un-counterable

 

But yeah, whether it's a cube or an XS core ship with 2 large railguns, like I said if the freighter has an XS core ship with large rail guns of his own, he could've possibly intercepted that cube and force it to disengage from the ship - inconvenient but better than the suggested alternative of removing different lockon ranges, which would bring even worse problems

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23 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

But yeah, whether it's a cube or an XS core ship with 2 large railguns, like I said if the freighter has an XS core ship with large rail guns of his own, he could've possibly intercepted that cube and force it to disengage from the ship

So my destroyer with large guns needs to have XS core "turret" sitting on it because he cant use his own large guns but the XS can? This is very bad way of doing things. I can understand that this somehow makes sens in your mind but it promotes way of playing the game that is really bad. We have to do weird things that looks stupid and are a big hassle only to be able to fight back qube meta. Qubes might not be the most agile but they can destroy you before you get in range of them with you big ship, so agility of the cube doesn't even matter, you can't engage it, your option is to run or not use big ships 

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8 minutes ago, NilinChan said:

So my destroyer with large guns needs to have XS core "turret" sitting on it because he cant use his own large guns but the XS can? This is very bad way of doing things. I can understand that this somehow makes sens in your mind but it promotes way of playing the game that is really bad. We have to do weird things that looks stupid and are a big hassle only to be able to fight back qube meta. Qubes might not be the most agile but they can destroy you before you get in range of them with you big ship, so agility of the cube doesn't even matter, you can't engage it, your option is to run or not use big ships 

It forces big ships to have escort fighters, which I think is a good thing - because in another game I play where there's no difference in range no matter how big your ship is, the meta is almost entirely "The guy with the biggest ship and most turrets win" which has almost no counter at all. At least the current meta of DU, while annoying, still has a counter

 

Edit: I'm not saying NQ shouldn't try to balance it somewhat, to make using bigger ships seems less like a liability, as I'm a big ship person myself

 

Edit 2: Maybe instead of removing different lockon ranges entirely, they can increase the lockon range of XS ship to that of an S ship? So at least people with S freighters won't feel too vulnerable, while M and L cores still need fighters

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I do think cube meta is pretty shitty, but I dont fault people for using it. People will always do the best they can to find an advantage and that's ok. But we need to have as many variables as we can in pvp so there is multiple metas. And I do recall a dev or even JC himself said on video not long ago, that they have only implemented around 5% of the pvp they have planned, so I'm hoping that's the case and we will keep discussing and help balance things as new mechanics are introduced.  

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33 minutes ago, lucagrabacr said:

It forces big ships to have escort fighters, which I think is a good thing - because in another game I play where there's no difference in range no matter how big your ship is, the meta is almost entirely "The guy with the biggest ship and most turrets win" which has almost no counter at all. At least the current meta of DU, while annoying, still has a counter

Use XS ships with large guns is not a counter against XS ships with large guns, that's a stalemate meta. Big ships cost more there should be more dangerous always. Im not saying big ship should wipe the floor with XS ships but XS shouldn't be immune to big ships and that's what we have now. Badly designs M ship should loose to well design XS and skilled pilot and that should be balanced with hit probabilities and angular momentum like in EVE, player that doesnt know what they doing will die. This 'im a big ship i cant fight small ships' is just bad for the game. People will be just making XS turret ships and that defeats the reason of having guns on big ships in a first place 

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3 minutes ago, NilinChan said:

Use XS ships with large guns is not a counter against XS ships with large guns, that's a stalemate meta. Big ships cost come there should be more dangerous always. Im not saying big ship should wipe the floor with XS ships but XS shouldn't be immune to big ships and that's what we have now. Badly designs M ship should loose to well design XS and skilled pilot and that should be balanced with hit probabilities and angular momentum like in EVE, player that doesnt know what they doing will die. This 'im a big ship i cant fight small ships' is just bad for the game. People will be just making XS turret ships and that defeats the reason of having guns on big ships in a first place 

I haven't PVP'd since alpha, but will be getting out there soon enough. What mechanics are making XS core better than M core.  Radar and lock range?

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20 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

I haven't PVP'd since alpha, but will be getting out there soon enough. What mechanics are making XS core better than M core.  Radar and lock range?

M ship with L guns cant lock XS ship with L guns, So small ship can fire at you but you cant fire at XS ship alto your guns are the same making big ships unfit for PvP. It's easy pray for people. Btw i was just passing by the planet and 3 qube ships are waiting for people coming from Alioth to Talemai. I had to pass by them, i would like to try give it a go and fight them but as it is right not that's impossible for me with and M core 😕 

 

i will add some number while at it. M ship can fire at XS within 40km range, XS can fire at M within 160km. So it's not even close

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On 9/13/2020 at 10:11 AM, Iorail said:

 

"PvP is 1 of the 4 pillars of this game and it needs love too but right now it’s the weakest and silliest of the four. Hopefully they will make good decisions in the future and have it work better than what it is presently."

Yeah.. until you get chit on by two volleys from an xs and small weapon in 20 seconds, shredding your ship like an absolute joke. Don't venture outside the bubble, unless you want to comment further on how relevant that pillar is.

 

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As someone who is very much interested in PvP, I agree with the spirit of this post: PvP should not be gimmicky, broken, or function in the current way that it does. That being said, I also don't agree with all of the solutions outlined in the OP.

 

I think there should be a PvP free zone, and I think the current one is mostly fine; it contains everything a new player would need to get started and it can act like a centralized location for people to go about their business without worrying about losing everything. I also think players should be incentivized to travel outside of the PvP free zone for better resources and rewards, and then be prepared to fight and contend for those benefits. That's a really important mechanic!

 

I also don't think there's anything fun or interesting about an overly centralized PvP meta that saps creativity and renders elements of the game moot, but that is an issue of balance, not exclusion, one that I'm sure will be addressed over time. Ship design and combat tactics should always feel like an arms race of building a better mousetrap, and it's pretty lame to hold up a battle cube as the pinnacle of PvP.

 

I very much disagree about removing space radars from the game. That strikes me as a terrible and excessive response to imbalance. If you're going to be slow-boating between planets in the PvP zone, people should absolutely be able to hunt you down, especially since once you get a Warp Drive, you can avoid PvP almost entirely. On a related note, the idea of banning PvP on planets entirely is bonkers: there's so much potential for terrestrial and atmospheric combat if it's done properly.

 

There's no doubt that balancing PvP in Dual Universe is going to take some doing, but reducing its role to nothing of substance or labeling those that are interested in it as universally unreasonable is probably not the way to go.

 

 

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