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JeronimoBeyond

QuestionS from a prospective backer

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Hi everyone! 

I am strongly considering supporting the dev of DU (pledge) and would like to ask your community a few questions before making that step.

 

1)    For you to know where I'm coming from, I am already backing Star Citizen... I know many people try to oppose DU and SC or are skeptic about SC but in my opinion the industry would be better off if both projects would succeed. I say this because some of my questions are based on my experience and knowledge gained while following the SC development, but I’d like to avoid triggering a debate on which is better or anything like that. I’m in the “AND” mindset, not “OR”.

 

2)    I really love the DU project from what I’ve seen in many respects. So I’m sold 90% already but I still have some doubts on a few aspects of it. So I’d like to seek your view on a few topics:

 

a.     Network technology: my biggest concern with SC today is how they will be able to put 2 million+ people in one permanent universe (which I think you guys call “single shard”) and still deliver enjoyable performances for players. So far lot of interesting ideas / reasons to believe were presented to SC backers, introducing conceptual technologies such as “object container streaming” and “server meshing” and the likes. But I wonder if it’s realistic at all given the scale of the game. So, I would be interested to understand what make you believe that DU will achieve this challenge (or what makes you doubt as well) and what are your proof points beyond concepts (I’ve already watched DU videos on this topic and it seems still very conceptual to me).

 

b.     Economy: How will be the DU economy be balanced and fair? As a trained economist, I understand the concept of economic nodes, markets places, and various actors (players, group of players) balancing the demand and offer which naturally leads to equilibrium. However, that’s very theoretical. I wonder how 10k players (and in fact much fewer active players at any point in time) can simulate a fluid economy that is not insanely volatile with many dead areas where demand and offer never meet, and that is not subject to the ruling of a few very large organizations. On that front, I have the impression that the direction of SC (simulating millions of NPCs to create market liquidity, coherence, and avoid that a few groups of players can own the economy) is more likely to generate a realistic and fair experience. I would really appreciate your view on that.

 

c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation: I love the space for creativity that DU is proposing. This is a clear differentiator from SC. But with so many players creating so many things, how will the universe not become a complete mess at some point? How will the game boundaries deal with players imagination which may sometimes also break the immersion (“funny” shapes, etc)…

 

d.     Laws of physics: How is your experience so far with the physical models of the game? So far, I am a little disappointed by the direction of SC in this respect. It’ very arcade and I wish the game took a more realistic stance on how ships are flying in space and in various atmospheres. There’s also no orbiting concept, as if the universe was flat and static. My best reference in this respect is KSP. I would be happy to know where you see DU positioning itself between those two extremes? How's your experience so far?

 

e.     PVP: How will PVP look like? I believe DU value proposition is not focused on PVP but from other MMO experiences I also know that once PVP is on, it’s on. And it becomes a significant part of the game whether you like it or not. So I’d be interested to better understand how DU approaches this? Will there be mitigations for large organizations trying to take control of parts of the universe. What will be the risks for individual players and large organizations when engaging in offensive activities, beyond potential economic losses? Will there be a law system in place? How will such law be enforced? Will there be “safe zones”, reputation systems, etc...

 

That’s it for now 😊! Thanks a mil in advance for your input!  

Cheers!

J

 

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17 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

a.     Network technology: my biggest concern with SC today is how they will be able to put 2 million+ people in one permanent universe (which I think you guys call “single shard”) and still deliver enjoyable performances for players. So far lot of interesting ideas / reasons to believe were presented to SC backers, introducing conceptual technologies such as “object container streaming” and “server meshing” and the likes. But I wonder if it’s realistic at all given the scale of the game. So, I would be interested to understand what make you believe that DU will achieve this challenge (or what makes you doubt as well) and what are your proof points beyond concepts (I’ve already watched DU videos on this topic and it seems still very conceptual to me).

Did you see these too?

 

 

 

This is not theoretical, this is what they have now and it works.

I don't know what performance will be like. With some luck they will talk about this in the upcoming podcast dedicated to community questions, keep an eye out for it.

 

 

17 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

b.     Economy: How will be the DU economy be balanced and fair? As a trained economist, I understand the concept of economic nodes, markets places, and various actors (players, group of players) balancing the demand and offer which naturally leads to equilibrium. However, that’s very theoretical. I wonder how 10k players (and in fact much fewer active players at any point in time) can simulate a fluid economy that is not insanely volatile with many dead areas where demand and offer never meet, and that is not subject to the ruling of a few very large organizations. On that front, I have the impression that the direction of SC (simulating millions of NPCs to create market liquidity, coherence, and avoid that a few groups of players can own the economy) is more likely to generate a realistic and fair experience. I would really appreciate your view on that.

I don't know. With enough players it should work out, if NQ knows what they're doing. And from what I understand they're taking inspiration (and employees) from EVE for this.

 

17 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation: I love the space for creativity that DU is proposing. This is a clear differentiator from SC. But with so many players creating so many things, how will the universe not become a complete mess at some point? How will the game boundaries deal with players imagination which may sometimes also break the immersion (“funny” shapes, etc)…

As for immersion, Noveans have all the same "funny" shapes that humans do... :P

But seriously, I'm not too worried about it becoming a total mess. This isn't like Second Life where you can build as much as you want out of thin air. Everything costs resources to build, and there is also the talent system which affects certain kinds of allotments and whatnot, again similarly to Eve.

I don't know what NQ's policy is on this. I doubt that they'd stop anyone from building whatever they want in the privacy of their own sanctuary, lol... But anyone who goes out of the safe zones will most likely at least fly something functional that suits their purpose. Also it seems to me that there is at least as much drive to create things that look cool or pretty or whatever, and not just "funny". If you haven't seen the twitter feed or the "community digest" posts on the news page for example, you might want to check those out.

https://twitter.com/dualuniverse

https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/

 

17 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

d.     Laws of physics: How is your experience so far with the physical models of the game? So far, I am a little disappointed by the direction of SC in this respect. It’ very arcade and I wish the game took a more realistic stance on how ships are flying in space and in various atmospheres. There’s also no orbiting concept, as if the universe was flat and static. My best reference in this respect is KSP. I would be happy to know where you see DU positioning itself between those two extremes? How's your experience so far?

You won't get anyone's experience so far until the NDA drops. But maybe this helps as a partial answer (albeit somewhat outdated):

 

And this:

https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/06/01/new-engines-and-ships-dynamics/

 

17 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

e.     PVP: How will PVP look like? I believe DU value proposition is not focused on PVP but from other MMO experiences I also know that once PVP is on, it’s on. And it becomes a significant part of the game whether you like it or not. So I’d be interested to better understand how DU approaches this? Will there be mitigations for large organizations trying to take control of parts of the universe. What will be the risks for individual players and large organizations when engaging in offensive activities, beyond potential economic losses? Will there be a law system in place? How will such law be enforced? Will there be “safe zones”, reputation systems, etc...

If you've seen the recent roadmap update, the first version of PvP is set for the upcoming Alpha 3 phase (January 2020), and they call it one of the six pillars of the game. Nobody outside of NQ knows what it looks like yet, but clearly it will be a significant part of the overall game.

As far as I know there will not be a law system except what players and orgs make for themselves. There might be a reputation system, I don't know, I think they mentioned something about it once but nothing recent and no details that I know of. I do believe there will be a bounty system at some point, but not right away at release. There will be some safe zones, see:

https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

 

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16 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

Hi everyone! 

I am strongly considering supporting the dev of DU (pledge) and would like to ask your community a few questions before making that step.

 

1)    For you to know where I'm coming from, I am already backing Star Citizen... I know many people try to oppose DU and SC or are skeptic about SC but in my opinion the industry would be better off if both projects would succeed. I say this because some of my questions are based on my experience and knowledge gained while following the SC development, but I’d like to avoid triggering a debate on which is better or anything like that. I’m in the “AND” mindset, not “OR”.

 

2)    I really love the DU project from what I’ve seen in many respects. So I’m sold 90% already but I still have some doubts on a few aspects of it. So I’d like to seek your view on a few topics:

 

a.     Network technology: my biggest concern with SC today is how they will be able to put 2 million+ people in one permanent universe (which I think you guys call “single shard”) and still deliver enjoyable performances for players. So far lot of interesting ideas / reasons to believe were presented to SC backers, introducing conceptual technologies such as “object container streaming” and “server meshing” and the likes. But I wonder if it’s realistic at all given the scale of the game. So, I would be interested to understand what make you believe that DU will achieve this challenge (or what makes you doubt as well) and what are your proof points beyond concepts (I’ve already watched DU videos on this topic and it seems still very conceptual to me).

 

b.     Economy: How will be the DU economy be balanced and fair? As a trained economist, I understand the concept of economic nodes, markets places, and various actors (players, group of players) balancing the demand and offer which naturally leads to equilibrium. However, that’s very theoretical. I wonder how 10k players (and in fact much fewer active players at any point in time) can simulate a fluid economy that is not insanely volatile with many dead areas where demand and offer never meet, and that is not subject to the ruling of a few very large organizations. On that front, I have the impression that the direction of SC (simulating millions of NPCs to create market liquidity, coherence, and avoid that a few groups of players can own the economy) is more likely to generate a realistic and fair experience. I would really appreciate your view on that.

 

c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation: I love the space for creativity that DU is proposing. This is a clear differentiator from SC. But with so many players creating so many things, how will the universe not become a complete mess at some point? How will the game boundaries deal with players imagination which may sometimes also break the immersion (“funny” shapes, etc)…

 

d.     Laws of physics: How is your experience so far with the physical models of the game? So far, I am a little disappointed by the direction of SC in this respect. It’ very arcade and I wish the game took a more realistic stance on how ships are flying in space and in various atmospheres. There’s also no orbiting concept, as if the universe was flat and static. My best reference in this respect is KSP. I would be happy to know where you see DU positioning itself between those two extremes? How's your experience so far?

 

e.     PVP: How will PVP look like? I believe DU value proposition is not focused on PVP but from other MMO experiences I also know that once PVP is on, it’s on. And it becomes a significant part of the game whether you like it or not. So I’d be interested to better understand how DU approaches this? Will there be mitigations for large organizations trying to take control of parts of the universe. What will be the risks for individual players and large organizations when engaging in offensive activities, beyond potential economic losses? Will there be a law system in place? How will such law be enforced? Will there be “safe zones”, reputation systems, etc...

 

That’s it for now 😊! Thanks a mil in advance for your input!  

Cheers!

J

 

A: Here is how DU plan's to handle Networking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeZtqoydXpc They also did a small scale test (In refference to 2 million players) Here https://youtu.be/pLh2OoTj8vc  They also had amazing results and this Technology was the first reason I looked at this game.

B: From what I can Gather Duel Universe will Follow Eve Online style of Economy where everything is built by people and sold by people not npc's. This has so far worked well for eve however most are wondering how the Econemy will be prime pumped or "started" As Devlempoment in that regard is not complete. However on the roadmap 639

Player made markets Will break up what was shone here as a singliar market area Similar to how eve has markets in every region on the map reference https://gyazo.com/d3cf0fb7ed44ae505f1214b97b51ac40 So that one place does not represent all trade (however in eves case there is a major market hub for various reasons) 
However in either case players have the abblity to close off markets to others in effect limiting and enabling large organizations depending on what they do with it.
C:  On this all I can say is that someone plans to create a giant yellow Duck if they can find a way to do it they will. As for the universe becoming a complete mess the universe is infinite (reference) https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12635-how-big-can-the-universe-get/&ct=1576081855 (keep in mind that is not from NQ but so far what I believe most of the playerbase believes however somone may have a refference from NQ and if so please share)  So in effect if you dislike living where you are you can move. As for creativity players specificly the PvP minded will tend to use the most effective tool for the job as much as possible so I would be concerned with a lack of creativity just like the META forms of ship fitting's in eve
D: I recommend looking at there youtube here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRPE8HHvv1EYu8YwqNgOD8w Just keep in mind functionality has been a focus point not graphics however to me it seems to look better than Space Engineers (And Function) for that matter.
E: We have no idea but here is a list of forum threads to specilate (These are all public)

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12803-should-automated-static-defences-be-added-to-duel-universe/
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13373-concerns-about-pvp/&tab=comments#comment-86015
https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12671-pvp-system/&tab=comments#comment-77092
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12717-pvp-timers-confirmed-what-should-we-call-them/&tab=comments#comment-77847
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12318-pvp-destructible-world/&tab=comments#comment-71814
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/11643-questions-about-pvp/&tab=comments#comment-59330
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/11619-pvp-mechanics-and-wrong-gameplay-direction/&tab=comments#comment-59097
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/11180-advanced-ava-combat-on-the-neccesity-of-tactical-elements-in-pvp/&tab=comments#comment-52365

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/698-encouraging-pvp/&tab=comments#comment-5053
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/835-balanced-pvp-destruction-system/&tab=comments#comment-7036
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/4429-arena-pvp/&tab=comments#comment-22036
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/803-the-pvp-system/&tab=comments#comment-6566
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/10105-pvp-hand-held-player-made-weapons/&tab=comments#comment-34059
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/660-pvp-battlegrounds/&tab=comments#comment-4693
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/18-devblog-arkship-security-or-where-does-pvp-start/&tab=comments#comment-25
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13413-force-fields-as-a-defense/
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/15629-building-regeneration/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13489-land-air-and-sea/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13482-robotic-workforce-and-fatorys/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/13417-cloaking-tech/

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12700-devblog-feedback-our-thoughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/16450-design-vs-functionality/&tab=comments#comment-113421
https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/14574-nanoviral-weapons/&tab=comments#comment-99265
Theres a start I hope others will pile on more knowledge or at-least speculation ;)

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6 minutes ago, Nanoman said:

Did you see these too?

 

 

 

This is not theoretical, this is what they have now and it works.

I don't know what performance will be like. With some luck they will talk about this in the upcoming podcast dedicated to community questions, keep an eye out for it.

 

 

I don't know. With enough players it should work out, if NQ knows what they're doing. And from what I understand they're taking inspiration (and employees) from EVE for this.

 

As for immersion, Noveans have all the same "funny" shapes that humans do... :P

But seriously, I'm not too worried about it becoming a total mess. This isn't like Second Life where you can build as much as you want out of thin air. Everything costs resources to build, and there is also the talent system which affects certain kinds of allotments and whatnot, again similarly to Eve.

I don't know what NQ's policy is on this. I doubt that they'd stop anyone from building whatever they want in the privacy of their own sanctuary, lol... But anyone who goes out of the safe zones will most likely at least fly something functional that suits their purpose. Also it seems to me that there is at least as much drive to create things that look cool or pretty or whatever, and not just "funny". If you haven't seen the twitter feed or the "community digest" posts on the news page for example, you might want to check those out.

https://twitter.com/dualuniverse

https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/

 

You won't get anyone's experience so far until the NDA drops. But maybe this helps as a partial answer:

 

 

If you've seen the recent roadmap update, the first version of PvP is set for the upcoming Alpha 3 phase (January 2020), and they call it one of the six pillars of the game. Nobody outside of NQ knows what it looks like yet, but clearly it will be a significant part of the overall game.

As far as I know there will not be a law system except what players and orgs make for themselves. There might be a reputation system, I don't know, I think they mentioned something about it once but nothing recent and no details that I know of. I do believe there will be a bounty system at some point, but not right away at release. There will be some safe zones, see:

https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

 

;)

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These are just my thoughts, if they are wrong or not the actual case, feel free to correct me. There's also not much that can be said about the game due to the NDA, so somethings are pretty vague and open ended. Though if you want to know more, watch the podcasts for DU on novaquarks channel.
a. There has been simulated tests with upwards of 30000 "bots." Now correct me if I'm wrong, but typically running bots is much more intensive than just having someone input the movements themselves. This is all assuming they ran the bots with their own hardware of course, but that's not the point. The servers clearly can handle a lot of people even as of right now, they can probably handle much more once they expand the server and more people start playing. Unless the game got inflated by millions overnight, I doubt server instability will be a common place issue.

b. The economy will be entirely player ran and controlled, with presumably little intervention if any at all from NQ. Its tough to say if it will work, since it would actively require a large of amount of people to keep it running. I don't think NQ will make NPCs to stimulate the market quite like SC will do, at least in the long term.

c. I think this really isn't said enough and seems to be ignored, even by me sometimes, but DU is still a game, it has people from many different backgrounds. Whether they be German or an edgy 13 year old making phallic shaped ships, creativity will run rampant and imposing rules will only hamper it. This is will probably be an inevitable issue, not much could be done in the way of preventing abandoned ships or space debris from forming. Though like real life, junkyards will most definitely form and many people and probably orgs will make it their job to salvage abandoned ships that they can then sell off or scrap. I definitely imagine starting worlds eventually getting to the point where there's thousands of ships in orbit, or just junk all over the planet.

d. You might be disappointed, but I'd suggest that you might want to get used to this fact. Accounting for physics in a single continuous universe with millions of people moving in and out, blowing stuff up or building ships, would be very impractical to say the least. I believe they are going to eventually work on orbital mechanics, but as of now they are non-existent
 

e. PVP will probably resemble space engineers combat. Not much else to say since it might be under NDA, but i know that safe zones will only be around the starting planets, and that there will be no universal law system.(Since they haven't announced or discussed such a thing to my knowledge)

So, i really don't know, if you want to support the project then i'd say yeah go for it. You aren't really losing much if you contribute 60 dollars, and you get access to the alpha tests, which could definitely give you more of an insight than what we could give.

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21 hours ago, JeronimoBeyond said:

I know many people try to oppose DU and SC or are skeptic about SC but in my opinion the industry would be better off if both projects would succeed.

I agree, I backed SC also, and they are quite different with SC being a theme park and DU being a sandbox. Chris Roberts himself even publicly supported DU as well as Elite Dangerous.

 

There are still unknowns on the details of how things like the market and pvp will work but the key word NQ likes to use is "emergent" which applies to everything from the market, to pvp, organizations, territory control. Outside of the safe zones, anything goes, and it's just up to NQ to balance the defense vs offense gameplay. 

 

It is long but I recommend listening to the most recent DU podcast on their youtube page, it has the most recent information, especially regarding pvp. And hopefully a part 2 will be out soon.

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On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

 

a.     Network technology: my biggest concern with SC today is how they will be able to put 2 million+ people in one permanent universe (which I think you guys call “single shard”) and still deliver enjoyable performances for players. So far lot of interesting ideas / reasons to believe were presented to SC backers, introducing conceptual technologies such as “object container streaming” and “server meshing” and the likes. But I wonder if it’s realistic at all given the scale of the game. So, I would be interested to understand what make you believe that DU will achieve this challenge (or what makes you doubt as well) and what are your proof points beyond concepts (I’ve already watched DU videos on this topic and it seems still very conceptual to me).

DU has a homemade server system as others already said - with such come some limitations ofc (only lock and fire, no simulated bullets, no "real" physics calculations - stuff might float if you just mine underneath it for example, and so on). But this allows for massive amounts of players - you can't have both imho. Millions of players with simulated bullets won't work well - see EVE for that. EVE did massive battles first with 5k + ppl shooting each other. It worked, but was slow af (TIDI). And this only worked 15years ago because it's lock and fire too with no simulated bullets.

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

b.     Economy: How will be the DU economy be balanced and fair? As a trained economist, I understand the concept of economic nodes, markets places, and various actors (players, group of players) balancing the demand and offer which naturally leads to equilibrium. However, that’s very theoretical. I wonder how 10k players (and in fact much fewer active players at any point in time) can simulate a fluid economy that is not insanely volatile with many dead areas where demand and offer never meet, and that is not subject to the ruling of a few very large organizations. On that front, I have the impression that the direction of SC (simulating millions of NPCs to create market liquidity, coherence, and avoid that a few groups of players can own the economy) is more likely to generate a realistic and fair experience. I would really appreciate your view on that.

see EVE again - all player run too. I don't really see a problem if some players/orgs have a monopoly on something. That's just how it is in RL too.... It's WAY BETTER imho if everything is controlled by players and NPCs don't impact the market in any way - makes up for interesting gameplay (scamming, playing the markets, earning money with margin trading,....)

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation: I love the space for creativity that DU is proposing. This is a clear differentiator from SC. But with so many players creating so many things, how will the universe not become a complete mess at some point? How will the game boundaries deal with players imagination which may sometimes also break the immersion (“funny” shapes, etc)…

the game doesn't and shouldn't deal with that. Don't like what someone builds? shoot it - talk to him - ignore it. Why should the game care if you like something or not. Do something about it yourself. This isn't something any game should do imho

 

On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

d.     Laws of physics: How is your experience so far with the physical models of the game? So far, I am a little disappointed by the direction of SC in this respect. It’ very arcade and I wish the game took a more realistic stance on how ships are flying in space and in various atmospheres. There’s also no orbiting concept, as if the universe was flat and static. My best reference in this respect is KSP. I would be happy to know where you see DU positioning itself between those two extremes? How's your experience so far?

As I already pointed out, the server tech itself has limitations (thus allowing massive amounts of ppl). For example if you mine underneath a mountain it'll just float and not come crashing down. Same with ships - if you shoot a hole in a ship it's still one entity and even "detached" parts act as if it's still connected. But for flying physics it's a different story - watch the vids and have a look at the HUD there - there's drag, gravity, thrust, cross section,..... lots of variables to consider when building and flying a ship. In atmo or in space

On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

e.     PVP: How will PVP look like? I believe DU value proposition is not focused on PVP but from other MMO experiences I also know that once PVP is on, it’s on. And it becomes a significant part of the game whether you like it or not. So I’d be interested to better understand how DU approaches this? Will there be mitigations for large organizations trying to take control of parts of the universe. What will be the risks for individual players and large organizations when engaging in offensive activities, beyond potential economic losses? Will there be a law system in place? How will such law be enforced? Will there be “safe zones”, reputation systems, etc...

PVP (or combat) is one main pillar of DU. See https://www.dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/ for more info about safezones and what they do.

You can claim hexes of any planet by using Territory Control Units, thus enabling RDMS there for your org. If you manage to take more than one tile you may protect the central one with a shield too, so if others attack you, they first have to take out the surrounding TCUs. How this all works has to be seen later on, for now all we know is: CvC comes in january.

The risks of doing PVP not only involves losses but also may include being excluded from player run markets, bounties on your head, ppl not selling you stuff, other large orgs (police orgs or w/e) hunting you and destroying your bases and so on. Players make the laws here - there is no game mechanic/law system besides the safe zone. It's all up to players

 

 

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On 12/11/2019 at 6:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

1)    For you to know where I'm coming from, I am already backing Star Citizen...

 

Nothing wrong with that, SC has the potential of becoming a very popular and successful game, much like DU will be. The two may be kindred spirits but are very different animals.

 

For one, pledging for DU now will give you access to a game in development when the devs open the servers. This is not a guarantee nor a right. Your pledge is towards the development of the game, not your ability to play the game now which really is "just" a perk that comes with it.

 

By pledging you may get some more or less "cosmetic" perks and get more tokens towards game time after release but generally the levels do the same thing. There's no prefab fancy ships, you'll have to learn skills and build what you use yourself or pay someone to do it (eventually).

 

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a.     Network technology:

Unlike SC, DU started from the network technology, it is the basis of the game. The video on it was already linked but yeah, it is a single, persistent server much like EVE. Big difference with EVE is that there each (solar) system basically runs on a single core in a server node, in DU the cluster will scale (nodes) dynamically depending depending on polulation in that node. If the node get's above the threshold, it will split into multiple nodes. This technilogy itself is not new nor unique but the application in an extremely low latency environment like a game is very new an innovative.

 

Is it proven to work? I'd say no but from what I know I do not see a reason to not expect it to work once the numbers start going up playercount wise..

 

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b.     Economy:

Seeing your background I can only expect you have an interest in the economy of EVE as I feel it is the only currently existing in game economy that is close enough to a real world economy to be the subject of many studies and papers in the real world. EVE also had many years to establish itself that way. DU wil lhave a very similar base to start off from and will even more be fully player driven so how things will work out we can only speculate but the potential of growinginto the same level of interest as EVE's economy has is certainly there.

 

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c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation:

Big issue for understandable reasons. As in real life many different opinions, dreams and desires will need to be able to co-exist and clashes will happen. SO far NovaQuark has held the position they will be hand off as far as what goes (or not) in game as long as players stay within the TOS. As you can imagine this will always be a hot topic and spark many discussions now and in the future but it is my beliefe that while eventually the wild west may try and take hold, eventually regulation and rule of law as players set it out within their territories will drive where people are and which areas will flourish. And that to me is one of the great promises of this game.

 

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d.     Laws of physics:

Generally NQ has always said they intend to be as realistic as possible while maintining server performance. I think that is fair and very sensible. Right now, it's really too early to say to what extent this will impact realism and physics. Newtonian physics apply in general but game mechanics like ramming one construct into another wil not have the expected results, let's just say as much. No weird stuff like friction in space though like some other titles are implementing but no deep physics simulation/calculations like for instance in Space ENgineers (which is a big part of why that game has performance issues with increased player and grid counts)

 

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e.     PVP: How will PVP look like?

Many will be in game wanting to fight for the sake of fights, others (like myself) will see combat more as a means to an end where it needs to have a purpose. DU is a big place.. I believe there will be room for either but you really can't exclude combat from your plans if you really want to experience the game, even if (like for me/our organisation) it is to just prepare yourself for the possible encounter while generally not having an interest in engaging in combat.

 

In the view of NQ PVP is not a purpose or goal in itself, it is a pillar on which the game is built and so while a part of it, it's not a thing by itself. At least that is how I interpret their vision as seen in this image:

 

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Most of these have been answered very well by those before me, I would add to two topics though.

 

Social norms vs Self Regulation:

While many details are locked under NDA I can still tell you that as an Officer of the largest faction currently in game we will be enforcing decently strict and robust laws. We're still in alpha so most everything is still fairly simple but we already have quite a few pages of base civil laws and a couple more simply for urban development zoning laws. To that end, there are plenty of corporations who seem happy enough to follow our rules, though I have heard some companies scoff at the idea of having a government protect them from 24/7 pirates and thieves. Most more details would definitely be NDA but I can tell you recently we have had to consider additional rules on zoning for air traffic safety...since even we probably won't be able to force everyone to get a pilots a licence and not everyone is an amazing pilot. I'll let your imagination fill in the rest.

 

Combat (not PVP, almost everything in DU is PvP):

Since we are custom building our own ships and vehicles, and they can come in many many varieties, I expect, but cannot be sure, that the meta will be infinitely diverse and therefore not naturally settle for well over a decade. There is no pre-built paper-rock-scissors methodology and we truly do not know how meta will develop. We do know that bigger ships will definitely require a bigger crew to be effective. There are no NPC's, and once we do get auto-turrets, they will probably have the same accuracy as an eight year old.

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On 12/11/2019 at 7:55 AM, JeronimoBeyond said:

Hi everyone! 

I am strongly considering supporting the dev of DU (pledge) and would like to ask your community a few questions before making that step.

 

1)    For you to know where I'm coming from, I am already backing Star Citizen... I know many people try to oppose DU and SC or are skeptic about SC but in my opinion the industry would be better off if both projects would succeed. I say this because some of my questions are based on my experience and knowledge gained while following the SC development, but I’d like to avoid triggering a debate on which is better or anything like that. I’m in the “AND” mindset, not “OR”.

 

2)    I really love the DU project from what I’ve seen in many respects. So I’m sold 90% already but I still have some doubts on a few aspects of it. So I’d like to seek your view on a few topics:

 

b.     Economy: How will be the DU economy be balanced and fair? As a trained economist, I understand the concept of economic nodes, markets places, and various actors (players, group of players) balancing the demand and offer which naturally leads to equilibrium. However, that’s very theoretical. I wonder how 10k players (and in fact much fewer active players at any point in time) can simulate a fluid economy that is not insanely volatile with many dead areas where demand and offer never meet, and that is not subject to the ruling of a few very large organizations. On that front, I have the impression that the direction of SC (simulating millions of NPCs to create market liquidity, coherence, and avoid that a few groups of players can own the economy) is more likely to generate a realistic and fair experience. I would really appreciate your view on that.

 

c.     Social norms vs. self-regulation: I love the space for creativity that DU is proposing. This is a clear differentiator from SC. But with so many players creating so many things, how will the universe not become a complete mess at some point? How will the game boundaries deal with players imagination which may sometimes also break the immersion (“funny” shapes, etc)…

 

e.     PVP: How will PVP look like? I believe DU value proposition is not focused on PVP but from other MMO experiences I also know that once PVP is on, it’s on. And it becomes a significant part of the game whether you like it or not. So I’d be interested to better understand how DU approaches this? Will there be mitigations for large organizations trying to take control of parts of the universe. What will be the risks for individual players and large organizations when engaging in offensive activities, beyond potential economic losses? Will there be a law system in place? How will such law be enforced? Will there be “safe zones”, reputation systems, etc...

 

That’s it for now 😊! Thanks a mil in advance for your input!  

Cheers!

J

 

Well I am going to be a bit more forthright with my answers. 

 

B. Economy is right now up in the air on top of if they know what they are doing in the initial jump start from my view. They did say at one point that npc ore buy orders were going to be a major source of currency injection which was ludicrous until they put in mission rewards in recently as another option. But then they decided to not rely on npc's at all and make it more player driven and that again put things into question as everyone's opinion of the most sophisticated Eve economy is partially npc run in certain aspects for faucet/sink purposes. For player missions I would say just look into my previous posts and you can see why I wonder.

 

C. It depends on a matter of perception that would cause immersion breaking. At the end of the day it is a game and not meant to be realistic as they are making a game quoted from one of their recent pod casts. There are other aspects that people don't seem to ponder much on like costs. If you play Eve you are guaranteed to run into people that are big on "isk efficiency". Which is to be as efficient as possible with resources to maximize your fun which is why something as simple as missioning has break downs of isk per hour to ship fittings for pvp. Since DU is not bringing a lot of the industrial automation in Eve, resource costs are going to play a bigger factor in player decisions. So unless pvp shows something different don't expect to see a proliferation of capital sized ships. Look into the super weapon thread I posted in. 

 

E. Well right now to my current knowledge they are implementing a invincibility zone which is disappointing and the size of the  safe zone is up in the air. As for economic losses that is going to play the biggest factor as it still does in Eve, even with the industrial automation. If you see me lump industrial automation I lump resource collection in with mass production. As for mitigation's on large organizations conquest  like the "blue doughnut"?  Well it is going to be dozens of factors that has to be revealed by Novaquark to make that determination. I think the three major ones I am looking for is all in pvp which are force multipliers, logistics, and resource costs. 

 

 

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