Should automated static defences be added to duel universe?

[unown]

This is highly debated but I believe this needs more light shined on it because there are many mixed answers out there.

 

[Omfgreenhair]

I would argue "yes, but due to power drain on a construction grid you can only have a limited few" because I don't need to tell anyone who's played Empyrion pvp what the consequences are if you don't.

[Lethys]

Automated defenses on STATIC CONSTRUCTS are already planned. Those will be weaker than a Player controlled turret for obvious reasons but it's possible

 

 

[Sparktacus]

Id like to see it taken further than just static constructs, and expanded to include what i'll refer to as "defensive turrets" - i.e things that need to be operational constantly in order to do their job right, but that would be mind numbingly dull for a player to sit in and do.

 

For point defense chainguns or similar for instance - need to be able to respond at a moments notice, but will spend most of their time doing nothing. Sitting manning one of those would be incredibly dull most of the time.

 

"Offensive turrets" - things intended to attack other constructs, like cannons should absolutely not be automated, to stop solo battlecruisers being in any way useful.

 

As for limiting them, perhaps an ai control block to mount them on? Could have it with a significant power drain and cost to discourage spamming, and only have them compatible with a limited weapon subset.

[ShioriStein]

2 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

Id like to see it taken further than just static constructs

I would like if it stop at static construct. No point in attatch a defensive atutomate turret on a offline ship because when is the time the ship got player ? When only one online how do they defend again the enemy. 

So if you offline, you should better hide your ship away, use camouflage or something to hide it. OR dock it in some safe space station.

 

2 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

For point defense chainguns or similar for instance - need to be able to respond at a moments notice, but will spend most of their time doing nothing. Sitting manning one of those would be incredibly dull most of the time.

No one force you to sit and manned forever. You can see even battle ship in real life only man when they are in battle. That why we got the thing called "Surprise attack", to launch an attack when enemy arent man the gun.
And also dont think battle ship will appear in DU every time. Big battle need big shop, small battle need small ship. It only waste of time and resource to call a battle ship to a small scale battle ( like fighter vs fighter ).

[Sparktacus]

2 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

I would like if it stop at static construct.

Fair enough. We're allowed to want different things.

 

Essentially, I think having AI Defence would minimise the amount of time players spend doing dull things, rather than having fun. That includes Players flying combat ships, coming up on lone freighters. I would rather have targets shooting back at me being the norm, rather than just sitting there and getting shot.

With the best will in the world, if you build a freighter, there's only so much to occupy you while you're in flight between stops. It'd be some VERY dedicated friends who stayed logged onto the ship ready to man the guns on the off-chance someone attacks.

[ShioriStein]

8 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

Fair enough. We're allowed to want different things.

 

Essentially, I think having AI Defence would minimise the amount of time players spend doing dull things, rather than having fun. That includes Players flying combat ships, coming up on lone freighters. I would rather have targets shooting back at me being the norm, rather than just sitting there and getting shot.

With the best will in the world, if you build a freighter, there's only so much to occupy you while you're in flight between stops. It'd be some VERY dedicated friends who stayed logged onto the ship ready to man the guns on the off-chance someone attacks.

You seem like didnt read all my reply.

 

Nobody force anyone to do something, you want to man it or not is up to you.

 

If you get your freighter out of your base (or safe zone ) ,It is your responsibility to protect it not NQ. If you think it dull to man gun to protect it, you should got a fighter. 

[Sparktacus]

I did read your reply. I disagree with your conclusion.

 

Essentially, your argument seems to be that you should only fly small craft if you cant find people to sit aboard doing nothing while you fly a bigger one, in the offchance that they need to may your turrets for you.

 

I do not see what that adds to the game, hence why I am pro AI defenses. As covered in my first post, I am completely on board with the idea that these should be limited, to ensure that you cant run big combat ships with loads of turrets and only one pilot.

 

However, i do not see how allowing a few automated anti-fighter defensive measures detracts frim the game, in fact, I think this would improve the play experience for all. Taking the frieghter example I put forward in my second post, having the turrets on AI would let my 3 friends do other (more fun) things than sit aboard waiting, and would give the attacking pirates a better experience as well, as shooting at a target that can fight back a bit is a lot more satisfying than shooting at somethung defenseless.

 

I would be interested to hear your opinion on what disallowing AI defenses on ships adds to the game?

 

 

[ShioriStein]

3 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

Essentially, your argument seems to be that you should only fly small craft if you cant find people to sit aboard doing nothing while you fly a bigger one, in the offchance that they need to may your turrets for you.

I didnt say it that you should fly fighter if you cant find anyone willing to man the turret. I just say that if feel dull by being man a turret so you should be a pilot of a fighter, so you will got all the freedom you want.

The reason why i disagree with got "some what automate on dynamic construct" is because it can be used to abuse. Once it happen like, auto turret with low accuracy and high consume than normal (just assume ), the way to solve it is build more turret and gather lot of resource to use the ship at a final blow with the enemy, like when in a battle with a lot of ship are fighting each other, you just need to get the ship inside the battle, when in position all you need it active the auto turret and let it shot what ever it see, then the battle will end in short time due to lot of turret are shotting. You will say it is balance when it is high consume and low accuracy than normal, but what if a big org have resource to do it ? Because in the end instead you got some battle ship to protect, all you have to do is protect your titan (massive ship ), it clear that titan will strong as some battle ship but now the target you have to protect will decrease down to only one and i sure it will much more easier. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

I would be interested to hear your opinion on what disallowing AI defenses on ships adds to the game?

I will disagree if you think AI = Auto Firing Turret.

 

3 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

However, i do not see how allowing a few automated anti-fighter defensive measures detracts frim the game, in fact, I think this would improve the play experience for all. Taking the frieghter example I put forward in my second post, having the turrets on AI would let my 3 friends do other (more fun) things than sit aboard waiting, and would give the attacking pirates a better experience as well, as shooting at a target that can fight back a bit is a lot more satisfying than shooting at somethung defenseless.

If i'm not wrong, there will be some radar type in the game. It will give you early warning when some strange ship come to near you (i dont know you have to see the screen or it will auto have sound warning via LUA , i hope it will be the second  ) . So you will assemble your friend and each will take a seat and man the turret. So in the end none force you to man the turret all the time, you just want your ship must in battle state all the time but dont want to man the gun whole time.

Also i will like to know how you will def your ship when your country time is 3 AM and you are sleep on the bed ( assume you are in sleep ) , i would think your def system cant against all of them, because if it can it break the game.

[Sparktacus]

Oh, if theres no one online aboard the ship, it should be parked up somewhere safe, or easy meat. No issue there, i think we're on the same page.

 

Early warning would be nice, regardless of any other tech. Trouble is, it would take time to get friends online (probably longer than early warning will give you id reckon), and it would also require the players avatars to be aboard, so they couldnt be playing DU. Essentially, same problem exists - no fun to have in game, so you go to do something else. Thats not a particularly satisfying thing to experience.

 

Same problem with them flying a fighter rather than operating a turret, theyre still mainly waiting about.

 

 

 

[Lethys]

Just like in eve..... You just don't move valuable goods alone. You create distractions, have multiple friends online and Take Care of all eventualities.

[ShioriStein]

3 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

Trouble is, it would take time to get friends online

 

As Lethys said: Dont move valuable good alone.

 

3 hours ago, Sparktacus said:

Essentially, same problem exists - no fun to have in game, so you go to do something else

Can you tell me what fun can you do when you are on a transport ship (freighter) ? I didnt feel fun than idle and go outside to do something on website or something else.

[Sparktacus]

We're into necessary evils at that point. If you want to mine a distant planet, youve gotta suck up flying there.

 

Long haul is never fun.

 

Take this as an example of how id use it, for context.

 

4 man mining/survey team.

 

Load the frieghter, everyone aboard. Dull long haul flight ensues, everybody yawns, but you get there.

 

You de bus. One person gets into the atmospheric scout you brought with, goes looking for likely prospecting locations, while the other 3 throw a little outpost together.

 

Surveys ensue, and mining.

 

Eventually, you have enough mined ore stored that you want to ship it back.

 

With auto turrets, one person shuttles the ore back, while the other 3 keep mining/surveying. One person drops the ore off, yawns, and flies back, knowing its someone elses turn next time.

 

Without auto turrets, all get aboard, fly back etc, knowing they all need to do it every time.

[ShioriStein]

12 minutes ago, Sparktacus said:

With auto turrets, one person shuttles the ore back, while the other 3 keep mining/surveying. One person drops the ore off, yawns, and flies back, knowing its someone elses turn next time.

Nice idea but not good enough.
When enemy attack you while your team still mining and your def cant fight back all of them.
And of course the enemy will stop you to get your team on.

Despite early warning but how can you get your team when they are still mining/survey, how long will take to get your crew on ship ?

[Sparktacus]

Not sure I follow you there?

 

We're not flying about looking for a fight here. The ship is literally doing a shuttle run to and from the mining site back home, a trip of a couple of hours.

 

Getting people back aboard isnt an option once you leave. You either leave with everyone, and everyone makes the dull trip back, or you leave people on planet working.

[ShioriStein]

I just wonder how auto turret will make you safe.

It give no good than being a thing for abuse

 

[Sparktacus]

The irritating thing is, ive just read up in the pre-alpha boards, and im no longer worried about it, but cant articulate why without breaching NDA.

 

I hate leaving conversations like that, sucks for everyone. I'll try and cycle back to this once the NDA lifts so I can wrap up

[Sparktacus]

1 minute ago, ShioriStein said:

I just wonder how auto turret will make you safe.

It give no good than being a thing for abuse

 

Just saw this, looks like we posted at the same time.

 

Safe is debatable. Safer, is more the point. A single person in a fighter can destroy an unarmed frieghter. An auto turret or 2 to shoot back with, gives the frieghter a fighting chance, or at least the opportunity to bloody the fighters nose a bit.

[ShioriStein]

Well we have reply the same time.

 

4 minutes ago, Sparktacus said:

Safe is debatable. Safer, is more the point. A single person in a fighter can destroy an unarmed frieghter. An auto turret or 2 to shoot back with, gives the frieghter a fighting chance, or at least the opportunity to bloody the fighters nose a bit.

And it also give people a way to abuse. As i have said, all you need to do is build a TITAN, mount a lot of turret. Half of it man by player, and other half will Auto-Turret. You can say it will consume more resource if it is, but what if they push for a single important battle ? Because instead of 3-4 battle ship you have to protect, you only need to protect one.

[Sparktacus]

Hence the idea of the type of automatable turrets being limited. Im literally talking about the small stuff that would be a threat to fighters, but does little more than tickle bigger stuff.

 

No-one wants to see huge ships with massive automated cannons.

[unown]

This Thread was mainly about Base deference auto turrets for city's and anti raiding

[ShioriStein]

On 3/9/2018 at 11:33 PM, Sparktacus said:

Hence the idea of the type of automatable turrets being limited. Im literally talking about the small stuff that would be a threat to fighters, but does little more than tickle bigger stuff.

 

No-one wants to see huge ships with massive automated cannons.

fair enough. Make me to consider your idea maybe good.

But why the feeling it will be used to abuse still inside me, make me to argue but i found not thing to say lmao.

[CalenLoki]

There is already an solution (confirmed by NQ) for "how to get someone to mann the guns of your cargo ship without forcing them to sit for hour doing nothing when not needed".  It's called multiple characters per account. You simply leave your friends mining with their mining characters, while their fighting chars sleep on the ship while you pilot. When someone attacks, they simply switch chars and start manning the guns.

No AI needed.

 

That being said, IMO it should be possible to manually give commands to more than one gun per person. The game has planned only lock&fire combat mechanics, thus sitting at your single AA gun and from time to time selecting single opponent seems nothing like interesting combat. It's like being commander with only one subordinate (AI gunner) with only one possible order to give (fire at him). Being able to control multiple guns at least let you choose which one to use, which one shoots where, how to distribute power between modules, even driving your ship at the same time, ect.

Only limit should be players ability to manage all of this, and engineering skill to make it easier.

[Lethys]

1 hour ago, CalenLoki said:

There is already an solution (confirmed by NQ) for "how to get someone to mann the guns of your cargo ship without forcing them to sit for hour doing nothing when not needed".  It's called multiple characters per account. You simply leave your friends mining with their mining characters, while their fighting chars sleep on the ship while you pilot. When someone attacks, they simply switch chars and start manning the guns.

No AI needed.

 

That being said, IMO it should be possible to manually give commands to more than one gun per person. The game has planned only lock&fire combat mechanics, thus sitting at your single AA gun and from time to time selecting single opponent seems nothing like interesting combat. It's like being commander with only one subordinate (AI gunner) with only one possible order to give (fire at him). Being able to control multiple guns at least let you choose which one to use, which one shoots where, how to distribute power between modules, even driving your ship at the same time, ect.

Only limit should be players ability to manage all of this, and engineering skill to make it easier.

You CAN do that but keep in mind that you can only train one char at any given time. If you skill your second char on the same account, you can't skill your main account in that time.

 

I never thought that mass effect was a boring game when it comes to combat. Which is literally the same thing

[CalenLoki]

I've been talking about manning gun in CvC.

Obviously in AvA (boarding) you can at least move, take cover, switch weapons, use some other tools/abilities.

 

Mass effect is an lock & fire game? I haven't played it, but from videos looks a lot like TPS with manual aiming.