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On 7/10/2019 at 2:58 PM, Oblivionburn said:

Most mmo's have attempted to compensate for this inevitability by having 'money sinks' or regularly introducing new currencies to keep the market from flooding and prices skyrocketing to absurd levels. However, money sinks and new currencies always fail since they underestimate the speed at which players can amass currency (especially when working together in large numbers). I would like to see a mmo do the right thing and learn from the mistakes of the thousands of mmo's that have failed at this in the past, and the solution is simple: cap the currency.

 

 

Oh I've seen this for sure in another MMO before, STO, market is so saturated with what we call "space whales" essentially players who amassed high insane amounts of the currency...

 

It's so bad that the developers are at now at I believe 3 main currencies...

 

Energy Credits

Dilithium

ZEN

 

With at least 30 sub currencies.

 

12 from 12 different reputations

Like 3 or 4 for Fleet (Organizations) currencies

Lobi (a sub-currency obtained from ZEN a la lottery roulette gamble style lootboxes)

GPL - a gamble like currency

 

 

Essentially a pay-to-win model as well, players with money are able to buy bundle and bundles of these.

 

 

 

I do want to see what other details NQ gives us in the upcoming AMA and Podcast, should be an interesting read/listen about the economics in DU... If they do discuss it of course.

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Eternal said:

Fiat money in real-life has no intrinsic value

Of course it does. The same government that issues it requires that you use it to pay taxes. And if you don't pay taxes there are serious real-life consequences (thus the intrinsic value).

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10 hours ago, JayleBreak said:

Of course it does. The same government that issues it requires that you use it to pay taxes. And if you don't pay taxes there are serious real-life consequences (thus the intrinsic value).

No it doesn't! Fiat money is not a commodity, so how can it have intrinsic value?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

It is a useless object that is being used as a medium of exchange and how it works is due to people's trust on the monetary system that I highly believe, after learning more about it, is a scam. I can discuss how corrupt the world's monetary system is, but that's for a different discussion.

 

The point that you are making--which is the same as mine--is in order for quanta to have intrinsic value(literally "importance"), this game needs to add some quanta-sink! Look at Ragnarok Online, the NPCs right there sell Blue and White Pots(SP and HP Potions), Blue Gemstones which some classes need(Resurrection Skill of Priest requires this, Warp Portal Skill of Acolyte requires this, etc.), and other useful consumables. In order to upgrade Equipments as well in Ragnarok Online, you not only need Oridecons/Elluniums, the Refining NPC as well will charge you a zeny fee every refinement try. In order for Quanta to have "importance", add importance! This game have no quanta-sink at all! -- that's our point!

 

A market can never demand something that is completely useless! In order to have a demand for something, that something needs to have "use"! Look at intrinsic value for god sake!

 

I cannot demand quanta at all when I see that it has no use! It's fool's gold!

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Commodities and services then, but not fiat. The solution is really simple, since the monetary system in real-life is corrupt, you will not replicate that in the game, you will add quanta-sink via NPCs to add "real" value to the quanta so in this case we will use it as a medium of exchange. Back it with real value!

 

Now that it's real, you don't need to cap it by removing and re-introducing bots. Try to see this holistically, they(Commodities, Services, Quanta that you can spend on NPCs) are all things with value -- they are all the same thing! Don't cap the quanta but add sinks!

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A finite currency sounds wonderful on paper, and for some good reasons:
1. It would have a stable price, no runaway printing of currency that drastically lowers the price and destroys the economy.

Just kidding, that's probably the only good reason that everyone could agree on.
It still has the problem of people accumulating loads of wealth and never spending it, and the value of it would still fluctuate pretty wildly as the market figures out its value, especially since its not backed by anything, and inflation would be non-existent.

Now instead of built in currency, I'd suggest letting players, or bigger factions just print their own currencies instead. Let the players determine the value of the currencies, and punish irresponsible groups for making their own currency worthless Germany style. I'd imagine this would players handle how their own currency works; one group could experiment with the finite currency, another could back the value and quantity of their currency based on a certain resource, or just do a fiat currency. This is truly the only way to figure out which is best, as we could cite examples from other MMOs that handle the early game and resources much more differently from DU all day long, until novaquark just makes a decision on their own.

 

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Lets make this a technical thing.

DU start has 100% quantas with 50k players and there will never be more

so every player has about 0,002% 

with time there are some people or organizations that do this math with me and the sell everything they can and within no time to get about to have 10% of the quanta in an organization of about 10 people, leaving 90% for the rest. But what happens, DU grows in no time to 1000k players, so now 90% is devided over a million, 0.00009% per player.

Now the "quanta"org does not use their cash as they envision power as the amount of quanta you have and depriving others of it grows their power and within time they even get 40% of the quanta by just grinding mining and industry, providing only the most expensive stuff.

Now we have a single small organization with almost half the quanta and no intention to ever use it and a population of about a million with all only 0.00006% of all quanta. 

Now lets presume we all get 5k to start with. -> 250.000.000

in the end the organization holds 100.000.000

and all the other people in DU are left with 150 Quanta per person.

 

Mind you, the organizations planning this are already build and working on this principle, best response would now be "No, that will not happen"

 

MW-FZ157_allthe_20171128163701_NS.png?uuid=44e9a602-d484-11e7-b2b7-9c8e992d421e

 

 

 

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Just to add insult to injury, we have to consider how many people may just stop playing on day 1 for whatever reason. In addition to the more wealthy playerbase just eventually leaving. Both of those just further reduces the available quanta as a whole. Not just widening the wealth gap, but making "trickle down" economics impossible.

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I love how the global debt is several times more than all the money in the world.... :lol:

 

What a pickle!

 

If ever we needed more proof that hoo-mans are insane (and that the financial system is a scam).

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6 hours ago, Fenrave said:

Just to add insult to injury, we have to consider how many people may just stop playing on day 1 for whatever reason. In addition to the more wealthy playerbase just eventually leaving. Both of those just further reduces the available quanta as a whole. Not just widening the wealth gap, but making "trickle down" economics impossible.

People who "leave the game on Day 1" will have no effect on the economy, because they'll have no quanta.

 

People that stop playing (or take a break) after playing for a few months will affect things though, because all their accumulated quanta goes out of circulation.

 

NQ will probably monitor the money supply, and reactivate their buy-orders whenever the "active quanta" falls below a certain threshold.

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@NanoDot
I was speaking in reference to Aarons post, where he posed a situation that everyone at the launch, would get roughly 5k quanta to begin with.(I presume, regardless of playtime) Hence:

20 hours ago, Fenrave said:

Just to add insult to injury, we have to consider how many people may just stop playing on day 1 for whatever reason. In addition to the more wealthy playerbase just eventually leaving. Both of those just further reduces the available quanta as a whole. Not just widening the wealth gap, but making "trickle down" economics impossible.

 

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Good point Fenrave.

I do understand the points in the discussions here and most are valit. creating a monitary system with no cash drains and npc to add cash through quests, or mobs who drop it through death is a complex system that could probably be solved by a few creative implementations. Problem in that is that quanta is a term from the arc, so even if you would find an ancient lootbox containing treasure, it would not contain quantas if the game is true to its lore. Technically only old human settlements and old arc ships could hold lootable quantas, with regard to lore

 

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On 12/5/2019 at 8:09 AM, Fenrave said:

I was speaking in reference to Aarons post, where he posed a situation that everyone at the launch, would get roughly 5k quanta to begin with.

We have no idea whether a newly created character will get "free quanta".

 

It's obviously something that's wide open to possible exploits and abuse, which will be extremely hard to counter. The more difficult it is for players to get quanta in a game, the more likely it will be that players will try to "game the system".

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