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DU Combat System

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In regards to the topics discussing about cloaking and radar tech (links below)  we might want to discuss how DU PvP itself will most likely look like first.

 

We know that DU won't be ego-shooter style but also not lock and forget, so how will it work?

DU aims to be a realistic scifi mmorpg, that means the combar system should also be somewhat realistic and i want to discuss about one of the (in my subjective opinion) most probable systems.

 

1. Getting the targets coordinates

Getting the targets coordinates would involve the much discussed sensors (mass, heat, radar etc.) as well as visual detection by the player himself. Those coordinates would have to be locked with the targeting system. At the same time that means that every weapons targeting system needs to be connected in a way to sensor arrays, we know NQ doesnt want us to have a central control for all weapons, so we probably would have to specialize some weapons due to their scanning systems (balistic low caliber weapons versus dogfighters would probably need a short range heat/Energy sensor, long range artillery for fighting big targets would be better with mass type sensors etc.).

 

2. Firing

If the target is locked by the sensors the targeting system recieves the targets velocity vector. If we assume that weapons have the properties Velocity, DispersionAthmosphere, DispersionSpace, Duration and Area of effect additional to the normal attack properties like Damage, Piercing or whatever, then the targeting system would calculate a path depending on the velocity vector of the target and the velocity of the weaponattack to the estimated point of intersection, then it would check if the path is clear from obstacles and initate fire. Players should have the ability to modify the path if they wish to (direction, distance). The range of the attack is defined by the dispersion stat (for example after the Power/mm reduced to a tenth the attack counts as ineffective) If the calculated point is within the range a damage zone defined by the area of effect property is created after the necessary time defined by the distance ot the target and the attack-velocity passed and the duration of the attack.

 

3. Hitting

If the target is within the damage Zone its damaged depending on the weapons attack properties and its own defense properties. Additionally ships would have a Sensor which detects incoming attacks and warns the pilot, thus giving him the opportunity to try to avoid the damage zone by de-/accelerating or turning. 

 

4. Consequences

This system has several advantages, due to the possiblity to adjust the attack path and evasive actions it enables intense close range dogfights and at the same time it works very well for the employment of strategic long range weaponry without illogical consequences. The turning speed and acceleration as well as the size of ships becomes quite important which would positively influence the quality of shipdesign. It shouldn't be to hard on the server as it doesnt require checking if an attack hit a certain target, it defines damage zones on the server which last for a certain time and the hitcheck only involves checking if a ship entered the damage zone or not.

 

The disadvantages are that slow weapons might travel through obstacles which moved into the patch after they were fired, but maybe the system could define several damage zones along the way for slow weapons.

 

5. Role of radars and cloaking

The role of radars is obviously very important in this system, as they directly influence how well the targeting system works. A low quality of radars/damaged elements could introduce an increasing error in the calculation of the attack path, equally the employent of disruptive elements (due to spys or weaponry) could also strongly increase the error, thus leading to more strategic options in warfare. Cloaking on the other hand wouldn't only include elements that directly reduce a certain signal, be it mass or heat or similar, they could also include elements that strongly increases signals. If a small ship has the mass signature of a ver big vessel it might lead to the opposing ship using its expensive heavy artillery, wasting it, or a fake heat signal could lead to fast mid range weaponry miss the target because it calculated the wrong path. Radars and cloaking wouldn't be a paper, rock and scissors system but rather a strategically relevant, non random, decision.

 

 

 

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Lock And Fire, is what NQ have confirm.

It will have combat system lock and fire like in EVE. But the damage at where the "hit" impact will left a "hole".

3 hours ago, vylqun said:

1. Getting the targets coordinates

In a game like DU where there is no border (except on planet) how we get target coordinate ?



And after read all the idea left it give me some question: Your system maybe good ( with dogfights seem fun) but the question still, can it be done with nowday technology ?! From the dev blog i have see there is many reason for the "lock and fire" will caculate with a formula right ? But what about the idea you say ?

Also from what i'm reading seem like it more about a missile =.=.

 

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depending how you set the parameters it can describe nearly any weapon. lasers for example have a bery high velocity, a long l, narrow area of damage and nearly 0 duration.

 

 

and concerning the tech, it would declare a certain area of the space as damage zone, shouldn't really be hard on the servers.

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Heres a question will players also have to use a lock and fire system or will just space ships abide by this rule and whats the word on atmospheric planes/navy ships and tanks- will they use lock and fire or will they use a free form style like in a fps like battlefield?

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Nice idea.

 

8 hours ago, vylqun said:

The disadvantages are that slow weapons might travel through obstacles which moved into the patch after they were fired, but maybe the system could define several damage zones along the way for slow weapons.

Not really an inherent disadvantage of the system you described; just a common inconvenience when shooting stuff.

 

The only problem with bullets is shooting from atmosphere to space. You can't use the standard equations of motion for this: you have to use 'functions of time' that are experimentally deduced. This is because the atmosphere is decreasing over time. I suggest you make it so no projectile weaponry has a velocity and dispersion that can allow the bullet to escape the atmosphere.

 

Also the range on projectiles should be limited so that the difference in gravity between certain points is negligible.

 

Bullets are all well and good. Lasers are out of the question as they are effectively instantaneous in transmission. But what about missiles? Missiles propel themselves. They are not projectiles. Will their flight path be calculated like a bullet? But it can't because the acceleration is constantly changing due to the angle of the flight path.

 

Anyway. Done enough typing today. I'll think about it later

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We still dont know yet because the aspect of PvP isnt show by NQ.

 

But likely it will be lock and fire. Because DU is intend to be MMO sandbox which have many aspect and PvP just an aspect of it. So if you spend lot of man power (which i think NQ dont have most ) on just one aspect, they will have to cut other which i would rather sacrifice and use random lock and fire. But it isnt random since the formula will depend on your speed, vector ?, ... But that is.

I think your idea is fair but not the first. Since everyone always want a dogflight battle but ...

 

##Imagine server have to track in a 1000 player power.

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The drain on the servers would be rather small tho, there are only 2 things the server has to do, send the velocity vectors of the targeted ship, which it has to do anyways, and send the static damage zone infos to close ships. the calculations can all be done client side.

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I hope it should be small for the server, i'm not develop so i dont know how the server will solve it.

 

24 minutes ago, vylqun said:

the calculations can all be done client side.

But isnt if we do it we can intervene with the calculation from the client side already ? (assume for hacking, LAG, internet delay [this is why they have lock and fire system] )

 

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yes, for security reasons there will be a few more requests to handle. Sadly my knowledge about coding doesnt extend to networking and related matters, so i can just guess. It'd probably require unique requests for radars and damage zones so third party programs cant just scan the data for those. as for the damage zone itself i dont see an issue. Its known which kind of weapons the ship posseses, so its easy to check if the damage zone properties fit.

18 minutes ago, ShioriStein said:

 

 

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19 hours ago, Nebenfigur said:

lock and fire only. But locking a target is most likely pointing at it.

Quote

Could we get a bit more information about how combat is intended to work?

 

A: It's too soon to give a lot of details, but here are the basics: what we can say is that it will be much more about tactics than reflexes, in part due to the fact that targets will have to be locked and then fired upon. This won't change as it is a technical constraint to make large-scale battles possible. In Ship vs Ship combat, we will intend to make it valuable to have a crew onboard a ship with several people managing weapons and a central command room to help coordinate the action. As ships will be destructible (as they are made out of voxels), we have currently several ideas in mind to develop combat in some unique ways. For example, the ability  to breach a hull and board an enemy ship. This if of course just an idea at the moment, as we still need to ponder if we can implement such gameplay in a meaningful and balanced way.

2

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeZtqoydXpc&ab_channel=DualUniverse

https://youtu.be/efu_129hI9o?t=11m44s

 

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On 4/25/2018 at 7:13 AM, ShioriStein said:

 

Lock And Fire, is what NQ have confirm.

It will have combat system lock and fire like in EVE. But the damage at where the "hit" impact will left a "hole".

In a game like DU where there is no border (except on planet) how we get target coordinate ?



And after read all the idea left it give me some question: Your system maybe good ( with dogfights seem fun) but the question still, can it be done with nowday technology ?! From the dev blog i have see there is many reason for the "lock and fire" will caculate with a formula right ? But what about the idea you say ?

Also from what i'm reading seem like it more about a missile =.=.

 

You can get cords via radar " can it be done by nowadays tec" we are in the future not the past 

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3 hours ago, unown006 said:

You can get cords via radar " can it be done by nowadays tec" we are in the future not the past 

I mean the server system to caculate, not the now day radar technology.

 

I know now day military technology very advanced and maybe advanced than anyone have imagine but simulate it in virtual world is another story.

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11 hours ago, ShioriStein said:

I mean the server system to caculate, not the now day radar technology.

 

I know now day military technology very advanced and maybe advanced than anyone have imagine but simulate it in virtual world is another story.

Ah so you are speaking of server load which from my understanding shouldn't be a problem with enough servers

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I believe FPS combat should not have a targeting system to be able to shoot at someone. This ruins skill and makes everything based off of who has the better weapon and shield. Skill is what make's games pvp more interesting and keeps the big guys from completely destroying the little guys. For example, I have a T1 weapon and I go up against a T3 weapon user, with targeting system I would not stand a chance in hell in beating the T3, but if I am able to maneuver, dodge, find cover, and kite this T3 person I might stand a chance. Using personal skill would be way more interactive and fun combat than a targeting system.  

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12 hours ago, xWolkx said:

I believe FPS combat should not have a targeting system to be able to shoot at someone. This ruins skill and makes everything based off of who has the better weapon and shield. Skill is what make's games pvp more interesting and keeps the big guys from completely destroying the little guys. For example, I have a T1 weapon and I go up against a T3 weapon user, with targeting system I would not stand a chance in hell in beating the T3, but if I am able to maneuver, dodge, find cover, and kite this T3 person I might stand a chance. Using personal skill would be way more interactive and fun combat than a targeting system.  

My visions is perhaps extreme, but 1v1 dogfights is like taking  a water pistol against a nuclear submarine: The water pistol is a 1 person affair: The water piston could even be made by one person. The Sub a couple of hundred crew affair with all the R&D tech behind that too...

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