Scalable elements and stargates

[Shynras]

Some elements can be combined to get a greater effect, this is what i'd define as scalable (i.e. a bunch of small thruster on a ship, forces are combined and the resultant is the same of a bigger thruster)

 

We know that thrusters work this way already (i'd guess that bigger ones are more efficient, or something to give a reasons to players to use the bigger stuff for immersion and lag purposes) but what about other elements?

 

-Can we add market units of different sizes to get more buy/sell order or do they have their own "information storage" and "item storage"?

-Can we add multiple sensor of different sizes and capabilities together to get a bigger effect?

-Can we add multiple core units of different sizes to a central one (that is in control of the ship), to improve the size of the construct we can build?

And so on for all the other elements...This would let us customize constructs better, because we could "subdivide" elements.

[Anaximander]

Thing is, this kidna not works if you count in ratios.

What I mean.

Let's say we got a Thruster S (small) and a Thruster M (Medium)

Thruster S, has a minimum input of 10 Newtons of thrust (number is just a placeholder, don't mind it). Why is that? It's there to so the vehicle can be boosted fgorward with a push. That's true of any engine combustion / thermal engine to be honest, even cars, they got a minmum power output, they cna't start from 0 then go to 1, then 2, they go 0 then 10 then 20.

Now, the Thruster M, since it's meant for bigger things that it has to boost, has a boost of 40 Newtons.

The argument could be made that "I can connect 4 thrusters and make that, right? ". Sorta. Then you have to factor in fuel consuption. Bigger engine, means more fuel to apply the whole NEwton outpu. 

Then you need to factor in the cycle of each Thruster. Small ones, have a more frequent cycle, as they demand more Newtons out of the engine, reactor, whatever.

Having 4 Thrusters S, doing the same thing as a Thruster M sized one, is not economic - not for prolonger periods, or even short.

And to top it off, the more Newtons you squeeze out of a Thruster, the more fuel intense it becomes. A thruster M would always outperform four thrsuters that can have  the net value of one of them. If a shi pwith 4 Thruster S and a ship with 1 Thruster M were to race to the newrest planet, the THrsuter S ship will have the lead for a short while, but thruster M ship will eventualyl reach higher velocities, as it will run out of fuel much later.


Now, for the Core Units, I guess it all depends. If Core Units deploy a "voxel grid" around them that you fill in by following rules like "voxel must be connected to a voxel chain leading back to the Core Unit" then a Core Unit expansion may be needed.

However if only the rule of "voxel must be connected to a voxel chain leading back to the Core Unit" is the only factor i nit, I can't see Core Units beign neded. Regardless, I'd like the Core Unit exapnsion idea, cause of reasons, mainly, apartment buildings that can be segmeneted and retned. The main building has 1 giant Core Unit, and the apartemnts have 1 small Core Unit, so they can be rented inddivudally, while beign part of a larger construct.

However, Market Units  are probably gonna be one size fits all. If only one person can operate them at a time or if you need to be in close proximity to interact, all the better reason to have an apartment inside a city with a trade hub, so you can tap into the market without having to deal with all the other people around you. Market Sell Orders should be dictated by skill training and / or Market owner.

As for Sensors, that may actually be a great idea. IRL we use networked sensor arrays to detect radio signals from space with greater efficiency. Even perhaps in DU, having ships that are tagged as "intelligence frigates" (a ship loaded with a lto of sensors isntead of guns) that their sole purpose is to scan for the fleet, bringing up enemy ship readingsl ike "This ship has these many guns on it" or "this ship has suffered damage there and there". Things that are actaulyl applicable IRL. Or even better, going into enemy territory and scouting.

But regardless it's a good idea, just not applicable on every aspect of the game imho.

[Shynras]

Ye i'm ok with the "bigger the element" better the efficiency, as long it's a possibility. Imagine people building large ships at start, they don't have the tech yet for that, so they'll use a large amount of small thrusters with high fuel consumption; after a few months the tech will be finally ready, and the ship will be upgraded or abandoned. One day you'll see that wreck on an asteroid and you'll tell your son "this is how we used to fly" xD.

 

Btw it's not only an improvement on customization, it changes the hard cap of the tech into a softcap, you're still limited but if you really put effort on it, you can overcome that cap a little bit. It gives space to some new interesting design, better reusability (when you upgrade your market to tier 2, what do you do with the tier 1 you had?) and more

[Anaximander]

Ye i'm ok with the "bigger the element" better the efficiency, as long it's a possibility. Imagine people building large ships at start, they don't have the tech yet for that, so they'll use a large amount of small thrusters with high fuel consumption; after a few months the tech will be finally ready, and the ship will be upgraded or abandoned. One day you'll see that wreck on an asteroid and you'll tell your son "this is how we used to fly" xD.

 

Btw it's not only an improvement on customization, it changes the hard cap of the tech into a softcap, you're still limited but if you really put effort on it, you can overcome that cap a little bit. It gives space to some new interesting design, better reusability (when you upgrade your market to tier 2, what do you do with the tier 1 you had?) and more

Oh, absolutely, one thing that would be awesome, is for people who live on the fringe of civilsation to have "cheaper" ships, that use more small thrusters and have less fuel efficiency, slowlly forcing them to play as vikings with their blitzkrieg raids on unsuspecting people due to them lacking the tech to keep a chase going forever or essentially outrunning their pursuers . But freighters? Those guys live and die by the fuel cosnumption for their cargo, so I bet they'll accelerate slowlly but be able to reach much higher speeds.

 

I am all in for modularity if that's what you mean. I am also in for spreadsheets madness.

 

Tier-1 Thrusters or modules in general? They are still useful. When starfighters die a lot in a war, you need cheap starfighters to keep the war machine going. Tier-1 Thrusters, here we come! 

 

I can already see people in a war in the future running out of Tier-2 modules only to crunch numbers in order to make a ship design work by retrofitting it with tier-1 modules. That has happened in EVE a lot during wars, tech-2 modules not present in the market cause of cosntantly being bought, thus forcing the opposing sides to adapt new strategies and doctrines.

 

It shoudl be interesting.

[Kurosawa]

@Twerk, can you go for 3 days with out any eve references

[Anaximander]

@Twerk, can you go for 3 days with out any eve references

Well, EVE is the closest thing to DU. He wondered why would Tech-1 modules have any use, and I offered an additional example on top of that - cheap cannon fodder star-fighters. The alternative would be to bring in real life wars and how it was applied... and we don't want politics like THAT in the forums. 

[Shynras]

Sometime is probably inefficient to deconstruct an old design ship, so there could actually be a used ships market for those xD

[Anaximander]

Sometime is probably inefficient to deconstruct an old design ship, so there could actually be a used ships market for those xD

I mean, if NQ does some sort of erosion aesthetics on ships, some ships' hulls may look like sort of rusted, sort of used.

 

I mean, private collections COULD be a thing, with people buying a 10 year old ship that has been through major battles in DU history.

 

 

P.S. : A good way of telling if a ship is authetnic on its claims, would be to have a "built on" line on a construct's information that shows that day, month and year of comission.

[Kuritho]

I hope there will be upgrade modules like in Space Engineers.

 

Instead of building 3 new refineries, just put on an expensive module to save and potentially energy.

[Ripper]

I believe DU will look MUCH more like a Space Engineers with Plex, than an EVE with voxels.

 

Sorry Twerk

[Anaximander]

I believe DU will look MUCH more like a Space Engineers with Plex, than an EVE with voxels.

Sorry Twerk

 

Because SE is a single shard MMO with politics and realistic economy... right...

[Kurosawa]

no because what we have seen so far is a crafting game like SE, but why should that exclude other MMO element ?

 

I do hope it's more like from the depths or star made, since i do not like SE much.

[Anaximander]

no because what we have seen so far is a crafting game like SE, but why should that exclude other MMO element ?

 

I do hope it's more like from the depths or star made, since i do not like SE much.

If anything, DU's building is more a mixture between Empyrion (Core Units) and the late Everquest Next : Landmark's placid voxel system - although Landmark's voxel system was more an accident, than a planned feature.

 

What both of these games though lack and lacked are the sandbox elements of DU. Remember, this is a Sandbox MMO, not a building MMO or a Spaceboats and Murdermachines MMO (like EVE). It's a sandbox. If anyone wants to suggest TRIED AND TRUE aspects of other MMOs, be my guest. EVE's proven player-economy is a great example as of what would happen if a war draiend the markets of high-end modules. The armies that adapted, won wars. And that was my answer to Shynras on that.

 

Beyond that, Space Engineers, Astroneer and Empyrion, are Multiplayer games, not MMOs - and I don't know if Astroneer has even MP mode, I never played it. You don't design an MMO as a Multiplayer game that is more or less "build ship, get a higher killcount". You wouldn't go into building an apartment building with the mentality "oh well, I mean, why do you need the concrete and rebar? I built a cabin out of wood and soil, you should build the apartment building out of wood and soil as well. I don't get it, both are places you can sleep inside, so why bother with rebar and steel? Wood is easy to get by".

 

I mean, I may make referrences to EVE here and there, but I am also making it clear that DU should not be EVE 2.0  - and the Devs have made sure of that with the whole "no automation on ships" thing, which also mekes the game no Space Engineers / Empyrion. 

 

If people don't like FACTS, like how EVE's player-ran empires adapt during wars to win, then they are free to go dig a hole and plant their head inside, cause DU's gonna be EXACTLY like that during prolonged campaigns.