Sonic Booms.

[Anaximander]

I don't think they're neccessary. It would be annoying to constantly hear those booms everywhere.

 

RL comparisons always suck but here we go:

And yes, sonic speeds would be definitely too much for DU. That would take away emergent gameplay and response time.

If we take Alioth with 100km radius as a model then it's roughly 1/60 the radius of earth. So an appropriate speed would be 340/60 = 5,6m/s for traveling. Since this is boring, it will be something like 50-100 m/s, depending on engines. This leads to traveling times between 3,4hours to 1,7 hours. So if your outpost is on the other side of the planet you'd roughly need 100 - 50 min to reach your target.

To me this would make much more sense and gameplay more interesting because:

- planets should feel big

- players are forced to build outposts to defend vast territories

- a response force has an actual meaning (people ready to go anywhere all the time - because every minute counts)

- it should be a huge task and would need thousands of players to own a whole planet - not 50 because they can be anywhere within seconds

- once space travel is invented and even if a planet is more or less under the control of one org or an alliance, this speed makes sure invasions have a chance. It adds a timer to be able to build a bridgehead

Well, an entry / exit sonic boom would be something barely audible, like a distant echoe when someone breaks into atmosphere.

 

However, I think it comes down to the Devs' plans. Maybe they want to icnrease the planets' size later on and they have indeed calculated the maximum possible sppeds of an aircraft and they just want to keep the planets 100km at first to ensure people bother to take off and seek new planets. Who knows?

 

But yeah. My 1 hour trip around the planet number came up with the idea of cruising around Alioth in an hour, at 174 m/s. Allioth at least, has a 10 hours "day cycle", that means Allioth rotates at 17.4 m/s. I'd say 10 times that (174 m/s) would be more than enough as base for adjusting the Newtons of an engine. It's a matter of math beyond that, and fuel to mass to number of thrusters ratio. A craft COULD achieve sonic speeds, but it would run out of fuel, or an economy class would conserve fuel at the cost of velocity.

 

And we got to remember that, sonic or hypersonic speeds will be achieved regardlesss if the Devs want it or not. Unless we go WW2 in space with ships having invisible spae-friction slowing them down We might as well have the sonic boom being a distant sound in upper atmosphere, like a distant thunder, making experienced players able to deduce by sound the direction of a ship entry and the size of the ship by the sound it made entering.

 

All those things are possible. I mean, sonic booms as "advanced warning" would make having ambient sounds turned On in a game reasonable. 

 

But that's just me,

[Aesras]

too much Science and numbers O.O lol xD

[FD3242]

too much Science and numbers O.O lol xD

I do not even know what this thread has turned into. I started it thinking (Well the ships probably go that fast all ready, they may as well add a little sound effect)

 

xD boy was I wrong.

[Anaximander]

I do not even know what this thread has turned into. I started it thinking (Well the ships probably go that fast all ready, they may as well add a little sound effect)

 

xD boy was I wrong.

Which is what I argue for. If the Devs plan on scaling planets to 1/30 of Earth's size (at maximum) or even 1/20, then hypersonic speeds would definitely be a must have. Or at least, have the "starting" max tech on aeronautical engines to reach a maximum number of Newtons worth of propulsion, with a maximum speed achieved by the equivalent of a light-weight paper-plane. That needs some math though on the Devs' side, which I mean... it's their job. Computer Studies is like 54.3% math (the rest is coffee and regrets).

 

So, if the Devs tweak the algorithms for bigger planets to emerge in the game proccedurally, then the Devs can introduce in the same Expansion, a new tier of Aeronautical engines that can reach twice the Newtons on propulsion, thus achieving Mach 2.

 

That can easily be emulated in-game. Just add a sound-cue delay when something flies at hyper-sonic speeds (as that's what happens with a hypersonic craft), so people hear your booming craft AFTER you have launched a carpet bombing their way (if you pull it off that is). It's not a matter of "if it's cool" it's a matter of "what does it bring to the table".

 

If there is a factor altering in-atmosphere flights, then said factor can be used to enable sounds from engines, with a factor like "if velocity exceeds 340 meters per second, then delay sound cue by x% seconds of the velocity of the craft divided by the speed of sound. If a craft goes at 380 meters per second, the sound delay would be 0.11~ seconds. Mach-2? That's a 1 second delay on the sound of the craft when passing above your head - not to menton that also means that the more the delay, the louder the boom, as those two things go hand to hand

 

But in the end, even if Mach-2 is achieved in-game or is planned for regardless, it still will make sonic booms but a feint echoe 11 km above the ground, with only but the most trained of ears pickign up the sound of a jet flying. I mean, IRL jets have to get very very low (around 3Km) to actually hear them cruising in Mach-1.

 

But on the flip-side, we might actually add streams produced by wing elements when a fighter is crusing at high speeds in atmosphere, like an actual supersonic craft does

[FD3242]

Which is what I argue for. If the Devs plan on scaling planets to 1/30 of Earth's size (at maximum) or even 1/20, then hypersonic speeds would definitely be a must have. Or at least, have the "starting" max tech on aeronautical engines to reach a maximum number of Newtons worth of propulsion, with a maximum speed achieved by the equivalent of a light-weight paper-plane. That needs some math though on the Devs' side, which I mean... it's their job. Computer Studies is like 54.3% math (the rest is coffee and regrets).

 

So, if the Devs tweak the algorithms for bigger planets to emerge in the game proccedurally, then the Devs can introduce in the same Expansion, a new tier of Aeronautical engines that can reach twice the Newtons on propulsion, thus achieving Mach 2.

 

That can easily be emulated in-game. Just add a sound-cue delay when something flies at hyper-sonic speeds (as that's what happens with a hypersonic craft), so people hear your booming craft AFTER you have launched a carpet bombing their way (if you pull it off that is). It's not a matter of "if it's cool" it's a matter of "what does it bring to the table".

 

If there is a factor altering in-atmosphere flights, then said factor can be used to enable sounds from engines, with a factor like "if velocity exceeds 340 meters per second, then delay sound cue by x% seconds of the velocity of the craft divided by the speed of sound. If a craft goes at 380 meters per second, the sound delay would be 0.11~ seconds. Mach-2? That's a 1 second delay on the sound of the craft when passing above your head - not to menton that also means that the more the delay, the louder the boom, as those two things go hand to hand

 

But in the end, even if Mach-2 is achieved in-game or is planned for regardless, it still will make sonic booms but a feint echoe 11 km above the ground, with only but the most trained of ears pickign up the sound of a jet flying. I mean, IRL jets have to get very very low (around 3Km) to actually hear them cruising in Mach-1.

 

But on the flip-side, we might actually add streams produced by wing elements when a fighter is crusing at high speeds in atmosphere, like an actual supersonic craft does

What?

[Anaximander]

What?

It's not a matter of "if it's cool" it's a matter of "what does it bring to the table".

 

That was the jist my response to the highlit part of your comment I quoted. It's not about "cool factor" it's about "what it offers the game as a mechanic".

[FD3242]

 

It's not a matter of "if it's cool" it's a matter of "what does it bring to the table".

 

That was the jist my response to the highlit part of your comment I quoted. It's not about "cool factor" it's about "what it offers the game as a mechanic".

 

OK, In case you have not realized you all ready convinced me it is not the best idea.

[Kuritho]

I really hope the max speed limit for "Space Travel" is different from "Planetary Travel".

That'd make certain maneuvers actually very efficient and useful.

[Ryzekanzler]

I really hope the max speed limit for "Space Travel" is different from "Planetary Travel".

That'd make certain maneuvers actually very efficient and useful.

That would create some imbalance. Everyone would start attacking from space if that's the case.

 

- But I would like it too. It's more realistic... that's basically why I would like it.

- Spacestations are better anyway

[Kuritho]

That would create some imbalance. Everyone would start attacking from space if that's the case.

 

- But I would like it too. It's more realistic... that's basically why I would like it.

- Spacestations are better anyway

You do have the whole "getting to space and directly travel straight-down to them" problem for inexperience pilots.

Its pretty easy to hit an object with a predictable direction.

 

Plus, you also sorta gotta slow down when going straight down... and decelerating...

 

But I mean... Hey! Orbital Bombs!

[Lethys]

That would create some imbalance. Everyone would start attacking from space if that's the case.

 

- But I would like it too. It's more realistic... that's basically why I would like it.

- Spacestations are better anyway

That depends on your ships. Can they even fly in the atmosphere? Does that base have more AA guns than AT? And, space stations aren't necessarily better (range, cone of fire, gut chances)

[Anaximander]

That would create some imbalance. Everyone would start attacking from space if that's the case.

 

- But I would like it too. It's more realistic... that's basically why I would like it.

- Spacestations are better anyway

Because weapons' tracking works by zero-friction materials at the base of the weapon, and projectiles also go at 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 m/s ?

 

The devs can actually make it so that if you attack from space, you LOSE damage with anything but siege weaponry - AKA big ass railguns called mass drivers to eject giant colums of iron down to a target. Why? Cause 1500mm rouds, are still going to melt upon entrance to a planet and evaporate before even touching the ground, let alone hit anything that's actually flying. Why? Cause projectiles have speed, and in DU's model, a projectile may not be physical as an entity, but it's considered as having an "optimal range", which is its "muzzle velocity", that means that if your ship's gun has 10 km optimal, means that within 10 km, on a target at rest, it will hit 100% of the time, but only if it's at REST. Rest means you and the target are idle, or both are heading at the same velocity, towards the same direction. Any deviation results in loss of accuracy, which only your weapon's tracking speed can compensate. So, you CAN go at 10 times the speed of an F-16 in atmoshpere while you fly in outter space, but you'll never hit the F-16. You are moving too fast to even hit it.

 

But what if you were to have a long range weapoin on a fighter in space? Well, long barrels = heavy weight = slow tracking. It's a very self-regulating probabilistic system. It may not be action-packed twitch-shootery, but it's way more realistic than Star Citizen's WW2 spaceplanes. Some people like that kind of lack of realism, but many people here don't. 

 

Just because you can go fast, doesn't mean your guns can turn as fast as your ship is going.

 

I really hope the max speed limit for "Space Travel" is different from "Planetary Travel".

That'd make certain maneuvers actually very efficient and useful.

 

There's a thing called "atmospheric pressure" and "friction". They can be coded on a planet's very properties. Even gravity may play a role on the craft's maximum velocity. Also, there's no "speed limit" in space. You can fart your way to lightspeed. The only objstacle is fuel. Same goes for planetary. You can accelerate your way to Mach-5. Good luck fuelling a craft with so much fuel while keeping it lightweight. I mean, a scout jet would be able to do that, but then again, it's a scout. not an actual fighter, it's mean to survey not engage the enemy.

 

You do have the whole "getting to space and directly travel straight-down to them" problem for inexperience pilots.

Its pretty easy to hit an object with a predictable direction.

 

Plus, you also sorta gotta slow down when going straight down... and decelerating...

 

But I mean... Hey! Orbital Bombs!

As Falstaff reminded me earlier, Parabolic Dives are something EXPERIENCED pilots will learn how to do, cause Inertia is a cruel mistress and Gravity ain't letting go easily.

 

And unless the Devs add exploding capacitors after deccelerating beyond an impulse threshold (time of deccelreration below a certain point destroying the ship), dive bombing won't be a thing.

 

But hey,  if they do add capacitors exploding as a makeshift collision damage proxy, I'll embrace any psycopath Kamikazeing their way towards me.

[LynkxDev]

too much Science and numbers O.O lol xD

Yap I've seen a lot of science around here

 

sonic boom's maybe are not yet necessary, and yes better keep the atmospheric max speed at a speed planets make sense and computers can render.

In other hand that not means we cant reach a battlefield really fast when it needed (in few minutes, not half hour)

 

This is a science fiction game, based on a time that humans can already bend space and time, (only this fact can turns into endless threads)

Humans fully dominate gravity, magnetism, radiation, energy, light etc....

(otherwise they even could travel long distances in space w/o get killed by space radiation for a start)

Hey, remember that you have "invisible" force fields around your ship that repels energy, radiation, lasers, plasma, solid projects etc ...

 

If you base on Sci-fi books and movies you notice that small fighters can be very fast, accurate and versatile since this

Futuristic technology level, brings a very different scenario when talking about engines and fuel autonomy. An small ship can travel fast, far and long.

The ship makers in game, on a certain skill level will probably have access to many types os engines,

like magnetic engines(fusion),  energy engines(ionic, photonic), gravity engines(graviton), warp engines.

An aerodynamic small fighter ship can be equipped with 2 or 3  types of engines and  be able to fly atmospheric, on space and do warp jump.

just depending on how much money and resources you wold be able to spend on it, considering its high chance to be blasted in pieces.....

With that an ORG can keep a group of well equipped and ready to go fighters on a space station, that can warp and really fast reach the battle sites

on space coordinates or planet ground, and keeps enemy in check while the big mother ships get ready to join,

bringing the full army of cheaper fighters and heavy space weaponry. 

 

 

On this category we have the X-Wing

also have the famous Klingon fighters called "Birds of Prey"...

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Also a single gravity or fusion engine can handle your (not even necessary aerodynamic) fighters to fly fast, accelerate and break, in atmosphere or at space,

not becoming to much expensive ship, they only can't warp jump, for this they need a "mother ship". And it uses energy radioactive crystal to power as fuel, that powers entire ship and shields. (or plasma in case of fusions) (most relying on elements yet unknown by human present day technology)

here we have:  the imperial Tie Fighters.. star droids.. Independence day fighters  (1st movie) and famous Star Fox  Arwing 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

Only game launch will let us know how much powerful our craft and script system will be and how far can we go creating and improving our ships

 

 

[Lethys]

Yap I've seen a lot of science around here

 

sonic boom's maybe are not yet necessary, and yes better keep the atmospheric max speed at a speed planets make sense and computers can render.

In other hand that not means we cant reach a battlefield really fast when it needed (in few minutes, not half hour)

 

This is a science fiction game, based on a time that humans can already bend space and time, (only this fact can turns into endless threads)

Humans fully dominate gravity, magnetism, radiation, energy, light etc....

(otherwise they even could travel long distances in space w/o get killed by space radiation for a start)

Hey, remember that you have "invisible" force fields around your ship that repels energy, radiation, lasers, plasma, solid projects etc ...

 

If you base on Sci-fi books and movies you notice that small fighters can be very fast, accurate and versatile since this

Futuristic technology level, brings a very different scenario when talking about engines and fuel autonomy. An small ship can travel fast, far and long.

The ship makers in game, on a certain skill level will probably have access to many types os engines,

like magnetic engines(fusion),  energy engines(ionic, photonic), gravity engines(graviton), warp engines.

An aerodynamic small fighter ship can be equipped with 2 or 3  types of engines and  be able to fly atmospheric, on space and do warp jump.

just depending on how much money and resources you wold be able to spend on it, considering its high chance to be blasted in pieces.....

With that an ORG can keep a group of well equipped and ready to go fighters on a space station, that can warp and really fast reach the battle sites

on space coordinates or planet ground, and keeps enemy in check while the big mother ships get ready to join,

bringing the full army of cheaper fighters and heavy space weaponry. 

 

 

On this category we have the X-Wing

also have the famous Klingon fighters called "Birds of Prey"...

 

--------------------------------------------------------

Also a single gravity or fusion engine can handle your (not even necessary aerodynamic) fighters to fly fast, accelerate and break, in atmosphere or at space,

not becoming to much expensive ship, they only can't warp jump, for this they need a "mother ship". And it uses energy radioactive crystal to power as fuel, that powers entire ship and shields. (or plasma in case of fusions) (most relying on elements yet unknown by human present day technology)

here we have:  the imperial Tie Fighters.. star droids.. Independence day fighters  (1st movie) and famous Star Fox  Arwing 

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

Only game launch will let us know how much powerful our craft and script system will be and how far can we go creating and improving our ships

 

 

 

All of your points may be valid in a scifi game but you're missing two crucial things here:

- balance of game mechanics (as I said that involves reaction times. but also many other topics - so all of your points may be rendered useless)

- server side problems (rendering, loading,...)

 

yes you can put fancy space engines/warp drives/atmospheric engines on a small fighter. But as the CU of that fighter is limited (because it's small), it only has small wattage output. You can't build a heavily armored, fast, agile, well armed fighter that can operate in space AND the atmosphere AND can use a FTL drive. Not happening. Depending on how much wattage that CU supports, you end up with a fighter being able to fly in the atmosphere and space but is weakly armored and only has one gun.

 

I certainly advocate against being able to fly from one point of a planets surface to the other side in 5min because of gameplay reasons. It's way more immersive and emergent, if people have to think about where to put their defenses and their military to be able to defend vast territories.

[Hotwingz]

It's way more immersive and emergent, if people have to think about where to put their defenses and their military to be able to defend vast territories.

I agree.

It makes for a more intelligent and tactical game. Like a mix between risk and chess.

 

Also if you can reach the other side of the planet under 5 minutes the distances involved become trivial. Its a bit difficult to explain but my thinking is if near instant travel is a thing it is easy to be reckless and contemptuous of the game world.

 

Thats not to say that teleportation is always bad. I like the way AO and TR did it. Or how Stargates are planned for this game.

 

Its a cost/time/efficiency thing.

[Anaximander]

I agree.

It makes for a more intelligent and tactical game. Like a mix between risk and chess.

 

Also if you can reach the other side of the planet under 5 minutes the distances involved become trivial. Its a bit difficult to explain but my thinking is if near instant travel is a thing it is easy to be reckless and contemptuous of the game world.

 

Thats not to say that teleportation is always bad. I like the way AO and TR did it. Or how Stargates are planned for this game.

 

Its a cost/time/efficiency thing.

Thing is Stargates, according to the game's lore behind Ressurection Nodes, are quantum wormholees. They are not teleportation, but a shortcut..

 

Also, I did mention earlier on the thread the need for TOR (Territory Of Responsibility). EVE players know that planets are more like Regions from EVE. You just can't expect to patrol a region within 5 minutes - not without an interceptor-class ship, meant for speed and scouting.

 

The way things work in EVE's null-sec, is that most alliances police their own pockets of the coalition map. If people attack my alliance's home, we group up and meet the invaders at the area the scouts have reported them in.

 

But in DU, an alliance will be needed to police a planet. Why? Cause alliances are meant to police a whole Region in EVE., and planets in DU are regions from EVE. And like in EVE, organisations will spread out, each one building their own small settlement, building their own factories. Sometimes, a region at the borders may need two alliances or more to reinforce it, and so will planets in DU.

 

Now think about it. If your crafts can move in 5 minutes, from one side of the planet to the other, that also means that attackers can attack you before you even have time to set up a Home Defence force.

[Hotwingz]

Thing is Stargates, according to the game's lore behind Ressurection Nodes, are quantum wormholees. They are not teleportation, but a shortcut..

Good point, but isnt that just semantics?

In effect you do get "teleported/transported" to the other side. I know lore etc, but practically they do the same thing.

 

Now think about it. If your crafts can move in 5 minutes, from one side of the planet to the other, that also means that attackers can attack you before you even have time to set up a Home Defence force.

For example yes. It should also help in reducing careless behaviour, which is a good thing in my opinion.

[Anaximander]

Good point, but isnt that just semantics?

In effect you do get "teleported/transported" to the other side. I know lore etc, but practically they do the same thing.

 

For example yes. It should also help in reducing careless behaviour, which is a good thing in my opinion.

"Reducing careless behavior" means "stay inside the Protection Bubble 24/7" and "you are not safe in your own home, deep inside your faction's territory". Velocity needs to be tied to mass-to-thrust ratoos. You want a faster ship that a fighter? Ditch the armored (and heavier) voxels for a more lightweight material and tour around a planet to do w/e you are doing. But not 5 minutes travel. That's Mach-3 speeds on a planet 1/60th of Earth's size. If the planets were to be 1000 Km instead of 100 Km in radius, then yeah, I'd say Mach-3 is a logical speed hard-cap to exist, but not for a 100km planet. With my math (as I showcased before) having 15 minutes travel from one side of the planet to the other would hit the right spot of scale / speed (as always, fuel capacity may change that, as fuel depletes).

 

And it depends if it's semantics what kind of wormholes Stargates are. The devs can make the transition between Stargate A and Stargate B, to be by "Travelling through subspace" or some other sci-fi thing, because loading screens defeat the point of the game altogether and having Stargates teleporting people around, not to mention the devs can utilise the time in "Stargate Subspace" to load textures on the background, update locations of the system you arrive at and base the travelling depending on a ship's size.

 

Teleportation is not a thing in DU, and technically the Res Nodes are not teleportation, because they snatch a perfect iteration of you from another dimension, not saving you. Probabilistic machinces and teleportation are not quite the same.

[Hotwingz]

"Reducing careless behavior" means "stay inside the Protection Bubble 24/7"

I see what you mean but I might be expressing myself poorly. I mean to say that I prefer the dynamic of having to think before you act. Like the RN system, if you misread the situation you will rezz a long distance from where you died. You cant just zerg/zip right back to keep bashing your head against the wall. I do understand everyone has their own prefered style. Me personally I like great risk/reward action. Though I am happy a safezone exists so you dont get pushed into the deep end within the first 5 minutes.

 

And it depends if it's semantics what kind of wormholes Stargates are. The devs can make the transition between Stargate A and Stargate B, to be by "Travelling through subspace" or some other sci-fi thing,

 

You know that is a really good point.

I've been thinking about stargates but I didnt concider the subspace angle. If it involves travel time it most certainly isnt teleportation.

 

And I understand (I think) the RN lore its just a little weird to me. I dont think I could handle being aware of living in an alternate universe. Like that Rick and Morty episode, everyone you know looks and acts the same but they arent...its uncomfortable to think about. (For me)