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Specs on Market overview

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Sandomut, I appreciate the input and welcome to the forum. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the last post. I don't expect the "performance" of the ship to be shown as it it not possible and I understand that. What I was suggesting is the atributes or outputs of the elements that are used to be shown. Heliomants description of a ship with 5 engines pointing in different directions for a perfectly valid reason, is valid and I understand that. But what fuel do I need to put in it? how much fuel does it hold? Does it have storage capacity? does it have the same size storage capacity as the other ship with 5 engines pointing in different directions? It has 5 engines but are they 5 small or 5 large engines? Maybe it has 10 engines in 5 pairs doing the same thing which would increase its performance maybe more than I require and it becomes obvious it's going to be a real gas guzzler. I would have to read through the sellers description of every ship for this information (if they include it). Assuming there might not be a way of telling who's ship or item it is you are buying a text description written by them, won't mean that any of that text is definatly legit either.

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I'm far from an expert on this kind of stuff.  And i only read the first few posts because it looked like the rest of the thread was just one person derailing.

 

But, i would guess that the game is going to have to look at a construct and calculate how it will perform.  Taking into account which elements are used and how they are positioned, and what voxel materials are used and the weight and maybe even the shape they are in.

 

How else would the game know how the construct should perform?

 

I don't see any reason why that information couldn't be translated into some type of Stats or performance graph.

 

It sounds like an excellent idea to me.

 

edit: Doesn't Elite Dangerous do exactly this? Minus all the crazy variables of element positioning and voxels of coarse.  But if NQ can figure out how to make those variables effect how the ship performs, i don't see why they couldn't do something as simple as displaying them in a graph.

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So thinking about it, this is going to be something the devs will definitely want to discuss or implement. I am curious as to how this is going to function though.

 

Perhaps a simulation test drive. Maybe a blueprint ID number to make sure it isn't forged. Maybe we just get to look at it in a CD rendering screen. I want to know sooner rather than later as well.

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I thought about this some more and we really have no idea if Element Positioning will even effect a ship at all yet.

 

In the videos we've seen so far ships have all had thrusters facing in one direction.  But without any kind of maneuvering thrusters they still seem to be able to maneuver.

 

I can't remember which one it was but in the video where there are multiple devs standing on a moving, floating platform,  It think it had thrusters facing down.  So for all we know you can point thrusters in any direction you want and forward is only determined by the "Directional Unit" he places at 5:43 in the first ship building video https://youtu.be/2zfnAtb6MZQ?t=5m43s

 

We really have no idea yet.

 

Anyway even if they couldn't accurately provide stats like Acceleration, Top Speed, or Maneuverability.

 

I think they could probably provide lots of other useful Stats like, 

 

Mass

Power Available and Consumed

Fuel Storage and Consumption

Available Thrust (even if acceleration and top speed still depend on a bunch of other things)

 

I think including as much info as they can in some sort of details panel for Blueprints would be great.

 

And obviously interpreting those stats would still be up to the buyer.  And as always buyer beware.

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Ships can turn even if they have thrusters pointing in one direction because there are small thruster for that, that you dont see. Jc showed them already in the video where he builds a small ship

 

You dont buy a ship from a market unit, as they already explained. The market unit will create a bubble, called trade zone i think, where you'll park your ship and sell it. The ship would froze until someone comes and buy it, but it will be always physically ingame. Maybe you'll just be able to fly it inside the trade bubble for a small fee, so that you can try it before buying.

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I copied this post from the devs

 

How can one sell a ship

 

Every Market Unit is surrounded by a visible bubble whose size depends on the market level. This bubble is called a "trade zone." Trade zones cannot overlap. For any construct inside the trade zone, it is possible to interact with the Core Unit to request a sell order that will be affiliated to the Market Unit in the trade zone, and the usual Nanoformer integrated Information Unit UI opens to set the price. When the sell order is validated, the construct then enters a frozen mode: it cannot be moved or interacted with in any way. Buying a construct from a market simply unfreezes the construct in the trade zone. The player can then simply go and retrieve it.

 

We have plans in a future expansion to introduce Hangars, which will be large areas that automate the process of parking ships and constructs, in order to avoid the difficulties of avoiding obstacles when moving in/out of crowded areas.

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I'm far from an expert on this kind of stuff.  And i only read the first few posts because it looked like the rest of the thread was just one person derailing.

 

But, i would guess that the game is going to have to look at a construct and calculate how it will perform.  Taking into account which elements are used and how they are positioned, and what voxel materials are used and the weight and maybe even the shape they are in.

 

How else would the game know how the construct should perform?

 

I don't see any reason why that information couldn't be translated into some type of Stats or performance graph.

 

What the physics engine knows:

 

- The ship's velocity at the current moment

- The ship's position at the current moment

- The force being exerted by each of the ship's thrusters at the current moment

- The mass of the ship

- Gravity

- Potentially air resistance if it exists

- How long it's been since the last update tick

 

What the physics engine calculates every tick:

 

- The net force provided by all thrusters at the current moment

- (If implemented) The resistive force of air resistance at the current moment, based on the ship's velocity

- The net acceleration of the ship this tick, calculated from the force of the thrusters, the mass of the ship, the value of air resistance, and gravity

- The position of the ship next tick, from its current position, velocity, acceleration, and time since the last tick

- The velocity of the ship next tick, from its current velocity, acceleration, and time since the last tick

 

What the physics engine does not know:

 

- How to fly the ship

- The optimal configuration to fire the thrusters in for maximum acceleration

- The turning circle of the ship

- The ship's top speed (unless there's a hardcoded limit)

- The ship's maximum acceleration

- Anything that happens more than one tick in the future

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Sandomut, I appreciate the input and welcome to the forum. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the last post. I don't expect the "performance" of the ship to be shown as it it not possible and I understand that. What I was suggesting is the atributes or outputs of the elements that are used to be shown. Heliomants description of a ship with 5 engines pointing in different directions for a perfectly valid reason, is valid and I understand that. But what fuel do I need to put in it? how much fuel does it hold? Does it have storage capacity? does it have the same size storage capacity as the other ship with 5 engines pointing in different directions? It has 5 engines but are they 5 small or 5 large engines? Maybe it has 10 engines in 5 pairs doing the same thing which would increase its performance maybe more than I require and it becomes obvious it's going to be a real gas guzzler. I would have to read through the sellers description of every ship for this information (if they include it). Assuming there might not be a way of telling who's ship or item it is you are buying a text description written by them, won't mean that any of that text is definatly legit either.

 

The question is, are attributes going to be of any significance? Total mass, yes, but total mass will be influenced by cargo. Dry total mass can be an attribute that DU will be able to compute, but little else of any true significance. Real answer is: you are going to test yourself any ship to really know its real attributes and performance. And I'm going to put you an example that I think will give a lot of light to this question.

 

Ok, imagine that Mutt Design Bureau, in partnership with a big alliance, designs and builds an Armored Cruiser (by dry tonnage) vessel (call it Armadillo class) for long range fleet combat. One of the main characteristics of the Armadillo Class is an highly optimised distribution of hull thickness to allow Armadillos to withstand as much damage as possible when they fight in its intended combat position, performing at that situation as battleships. To that goal, MDB, with help of FCs of the alliance, analyses possible ship hull configurations to maximise active weapon batteries in combat, and after arriving to an ideal configuration, MDB computes a probability distribution of enemy fire impacts on the projected hull; hull thickness then is incremented following that distribution. Problem is, in some zones, hull be 2m thick, in others 3m, in the most compromised positions will be 4.5m; in combat shadow positions just 50cm. The average hull thickness is 1.8m, for example, and possibly DU can compute that, but, of what usefulness is such value? Now after a period of embargo from the alliance, MDB is allowed to sell Armadillos in the free market, and you come and purchase one of them, because of their 10 double heavy cannon batteries, because of its max acceleration, because is nice, because its 1.8m average armour... In your first combat, alone, you get surrounded by a swarm of heavy fighters that know previously Armadillos and wipe you out of the sky in 2 embarrassing and quick minutes. You come to me citing the 1.8m average hull thickness and yelling "SCAM!!"; but the reality is that Armadillos are designed only for fleet combat, to fight at long range, and need a fighter cover to address the vulnerability of their low armour in parts of their hulls.

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I haven't seen this mentioned but with the RDMS system. It will be likely that test flights will be a possibility.

Maybe so but how will you prevent someone flying of with it? I.e stealing the ship?

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Sandomut, I think you are getting confused with what I am suggesting. When I said

 

Sandomut, I appreciate the input and welcome to the forum. Maybe I didn't make myself clear in the last post. I don't expect the "performance" of the ship to be shown as it it not possible and I understand that. What I was suggesting is the atributes or outputs of the elements that are used to be shown.

What I meant was,

I know it's not going to be easy (and maybe not even possible) to calculate the "PERFORMANCE" of the whole ship and display it, so that is not what I was suggesting. What i am suggesting is that the max outputs and capacitys of the "ELEMENTS" fitted (that's the parts you fit to your ship, not what you make out of voxels) are displayed when looking at information on the ship, and available to view through the market tab. Hope this is clear now????

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Ships can turn even if they have thrusters pointing in one direction because there are small thruster for that, that you dont see. Jc showed them already in the video where he builds a small ship

 

 

You're right i totally forgot about those Adjusters he put on the ship towards the end of the video.

 

He only places them on the sides of the ship though.  Two on each side.  So where does the ship get the upward lift when it takes off?

 

There's still a lot we don't know.

 

But back to the topic of Stats on Blueprints.  Some people seem to be a bit stuck on the supposed significance of these Stats.  First I think the significance would come from comparing them to other Blueprints you might be looking at.  

 

Just because a Total Mass stat doesn't necessarily account for the ships total mass when it's loaded with cargo, doesn't mean it wouldn't be relevant in comparison to another ship.

 

And even if they can't provide specific stats like Top Speed or Turning Radius doesn't mean an experienced player wouldn't be able to look at stats like Mass and Available Thrust and make an educated decision.

 

The more information available the better in my opinion.

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Sandomut, I think you are getting confused with what I am suggesting. When I said

 

 

What I meant was,

I know it's not going to be easy (and maybe not even possible) to calculate the "PERFORMANCE" of the whole ship and display it, so that is not what I was suggesting. What i am suggesting is that the max outputs and capacitys of the "ELEMENTS" fitted (that's the parts you fit to your ship, not what you make out of voxels) are displayed when looking at information on the ship, and available to view through the market tab. Hope this is clear now

 

I have no doubt that you will be able to see that, either in built ships or blueprints. The question still remains of which significance that information will have. And, from what appears at this stage of our knowledge of what developers are doing with DU, the answer is that probably little to less than little. Of course that information can filter the most obvious scams (such a publicised surface capable ship with engine thrust incapable to lift off), but will be of no help to assess its real performance. Nor will help to compare with other ships; if you have some experience with EVE, DU ships will not have anything as shield, armour and hull stats, capacitator size, engineering points for rigs, etc etc; from that stats, plus the stats added by modules, one can have a good idea of the performance of an EVE ship. DU will be a total different beast, as long as developers stated intention of making ship handling related to the physics engine and scripting of elements holds. For example, in space, if they maintain Newtonian physics, ship speed will be not bounded (well, leaving aside Relativity, of course). Thus acceleration will be determinant, and acceleration performance of a ship will be determined by how well placed the thrusters are on a given design. Even for linear acceleration, because a body accelerated at a point with a direction not in line with its centre of mass will develop some moment, and depending in their amount, stabilising the tendency to rotate under acceleration could be quite a difficult task for maneuver thrusters, not to count that if you want to make that stabilisation automatic with some script, it can be a truly headache.

 

P.S. And talking about Newtonian physics.... I hope it will be the "background of space". Battles with ships buzzing at some kilometres per second will be a total different thing from anything we have seen before  :D . Alpha stricking will be of paramount importance in such a kind of combat.

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