Jump to content
Titanis

Specs on Market overview

Recommended Posts

The devs talked about implementing a kind of preview system (inception system?) to test a construct, the same system that they could implement to build one.

For moving construct, you could imagine several data being displayed in real time while testing such as the current speed.

 

That is the best way to let customers decide : let them try the product.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is the best way to let customers decide : let them try the product.

Oh so you are giving me the keys to this ship? To take a test drive?

 

Yup sounds like a solid businessplan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I spoke about a preview/inception system, maybe it wasn't clear enough :

 

You would enter a virtual space where you would be able to interact with the product in anyway you want and nothing of what you would do would be saved back in the real world. The only way to test the product in the real world would be to purchase it of course.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heliomance this forum is for people to discuss thoughts ask questions about the game we are all excited about. Specifically on this topic is to propose people's ideas. All you have done since I made my proposal is shoot me down, tell me it will never work, it can't be done and that basically Imply that I am an idiot. Other people have commented positively and added some realy good ideas too. If your going to go out of your way to make me and my ideas look stupid then please don't comment Unless it's constructive and positive like other people do

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heliomance this forum is for people to discuss thoughts ask questions about the game we are all excited about. Specifically on this topic is to propose people's ideas. All you have done since I made my proposal is shoot me down, tell me it will never work, it can't be done and that basically Imply that I am an idiot. Other people have commented positively and added some realy good ideas too. If your going to go out of your way to make me and my ideas look stupid then please don't comment Unless it's constructive and positive like other people do

No, I told you that it wouldn't work, I explained exactly why it wouldn't work, and you continued to insist that you wouldn't believe it until someone from NQ weighed in. Posting the video might have been a touch on the mean side, and for that I apologise, but I was getting frustrated at the fact that you seemed to be either ignoring or not understanding what I was saying.There have been plenty of workable ideas posted here, yes, and on the whole the thread has been valuable. but I do know what I'm talking about, you were dismissing what I was saying, and I got irritated and snarky.

 

Anyone can get something wrong, and that's fine. I'm certainly not immune. I don't think less of someone for incomplete knowledge or for making a mistake - different people know different things. When someone continues to insist that they are right and ignores people trying to improve their knowledge, that's when I get sarcastic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Space Engineers already has this as a basic model. Calculating the mass of the ship and the amount of thrust and power consumption at any given point.

THANKYOU

this is the kind of thing I've suggested. If Somone could view that data in a "show info" page when browsing the ship market

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THANKYOU

this is the kind of thing I've suggested. If Somone could view that data in a "show info" page when browsing the ship market

I'm afraid this information will not be awfully relevant in DU since flight ability it will depend on the script and the places of the key elements

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I came across a bit over imagineative from the start. My whole point is that what's to stop people selling ships that are toataly useless and what shows the buyer that the ship they are purchasing is to the spec they want. Stats on how they will perform may not be possible I understand that. But what about spec? How about spec based on the components like fuel tank, engines, power core, ect. Couldn't over all mass be calculated/displayed? Something like.

 

Power core 7mw

Thrust. 50mt

Fuel capacity 500m3

Storage capacity 400m3

Overall mass. 10000000kg

 

You get the idea these are all based on components figs that don't change what's to stop Somone selling a ship with no fuel tank? Somone might want a ship with extra fuel capacity or storage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if you ask for a list of all core elements inside a construct then it will make it easy to copy it.

 

An even if it was listed, there is no way to know if the construct will do as you intend it to (like fly correctly or kill on detection) apart from testing it (in a virtual space like I said).

 

For example with your own example :

Power core 7mw : Is the power core even used, is it enough to make the construct do what is said it does?
Thrust. 50mt : In what direction? for how long? Does it allow you to do horizontal or vertical movements? is it possible to hover?
Fuel capacity 500m3  : In how much tanks? are they all accessible? are they all using the same fuel? is the fuel the tank use energy efficient?
Storage capacity 400m3 : How is it distributed? is it one main chamber? is it multiple small rooms? is all the storage capacity accessible? what size of products can in handle?
Overall mass. 10000000kg : How is it distributed? is all the weight in the front? is it all in the left side? is it all in the top? Can it even fly?

 

 

Space Engineers already has this as a basic model. Calculating the mass of the ship and the amount of thrust and power consumption at any given point.

These information would only be relevant if displayed while testing the product in the virtual space because they are only relevant in one situation at a given point in time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm compromising as people have said there cannot be a list of stats. 1 fuel tank is say 1000m3 so with 2000m3 one would assume it has 2 tanks and if it says fuel capacity 0m3 then it's obvious Somone is trying to sell you a ship with no fuel tank. If somebody is in the market for a long range exploration ship then they might be looking for a ship with 4000m3 fuel capacity, (just for example). It's just something to go by as it would be better if than nothing. maybe there could be a test flight system or somthing aswell and I really liked the idea of the ratings system that Somone suggested. If someone uses the same components to try and copy your ship they are still going to have to try and construct it the same way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm compromising as people have said there cannot be a list of stats. 1 fuel tank is say 1000m3 so with 2000m3 one would assume it has 2 tanks and if it says fuel capacity 0m3 then it's obvious Somone is trying to sell you a ship with no fuel tank. If somebody is in the market for a long range exploration ship then they might be looking for a ship with 4000m3 fuel capacity, (just for example). It's just something to go by as it would be better if than nothing. maybe there could be a test flight system or somthing aswell and I really liked the idea of the ratings system that Somone suggested. If someone uses the same components to try and copy your ship they are still going to have to try and construct it the same way

I don't see why it would be difficult to have a list of at least basic default stats once you construct a ship. Like you build a ship, them you run some kind of scanning function and it outputs a short list of relevant stats. Could be based on the amount of voxel space used, materials used, what modules you used, complexity and type of scripts used.

 

We already know there's a system in place to determine how a ship works based on how we build it, so having some kind of function to determine some stats that buyerss would find relevant doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me. Its sandbox game after all and tools like that are the Devs job to give us, IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see why it would be difficult to have a list of at least basic default stats once you construct a ship. Like you build a ship, them you run some kind of scanning function and it outputs a short list of relevant stats. Could be based on the amount of voxel space used, materials used, what modules you used, complexity and type of scripts used.

 

We already know there's a system in place to determine how a ship works based on how we build it, so having some kind of function to determine some stats that buyerss would find relevant doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me. Its sandbox game after all and tools like that are the Devs job to give us, IMO.

So you have 5 engines. If they're pointing in different directions, adding the total thrust together doesn't tell you anything useful. But there could be perfectly valid reasons to build it like that - well-scripted, it might use different engines in response to different commands to make it more maneuverable.

 

It may not seem like much of a stretch to you, but it's actually not possible. Not just difficult, not possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And your point is? Why would you buy a ship with engines pointing in different directions unless you know what your buying it for? Surely this information would be in the info text. I can see it now "and this ship was dreamt up by mr spoil sport, nobody knows what it does but it has five engines all pointing different directions so don't count on all that thrust propelling you in the direction you would expect"

 

Didn't think it would be long for the killjoy to pipe up

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And your point is? Why would you buy a ship with engines pointing in different directions unless you know what your buying it for? Surely this information would be in the info text. I can see it now "and this ship was dreamt up by mr spoil sport, nobody knows what it does but it has five engines all pointing different directions so don't count on all that thrust propelling you in the direction you would expect"

 

Didn't think it would be long for the killjoy to pipe up

I'm new to the thread so must have smelt fresh meat...

 

It wouldn't like I referred to have to be very detailed even, just basic stats and numbers based on how you built your ship, then from there you would take a closer look,  seeing it in person and such before buying.

 

But yeah maybe instead of trying to convince others how one thinks it won't work maybe try coming up with ways it can. Devs are pretty smart folks, so to say something is impossible is a bit harsh and out of place here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It would be easy for the devs to create a list of core elements and basic info.

 

What we are discussing here is the relevance of these information : it won't be relevant in most cases.

So why bother with them if they are subject to misinpretation?

It will only trouble the buyers and they will soon be ignored by the community.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The specifications for a Glock are the same for all people.  However Person A will probably like/dislike it more than Person B.  Just as Person C may be able to completely outperform Person D.  Most of it will depend on training and skill.  

 

As a builder, I can let people know the specifications.  If they want to know how well it works, I will give them references to speak with.   If that is not good enough for them, I'm am sure there is someone down the road that will be happy to sell them a Chevy instead of a Ferrari   :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly some of that information would be valuable to me. Things like fuel capacity and storage capacity and even radar strength ect I agree having a test flight or somthing would be just as helpful and hands down the best way to judge its performance but that's the other side of the coin. I think we've discovered two different things we want to see before buying a ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, people are absolutely want to know what they're buying before they buy it. I'm not disputing that at all. But a simple list of statistics isn't going to work.

 

The two main suggestions that have come up that are workable are a VR environment to test-fly a ship in before you buy it, and the emergent gameplay of trusted reviewers. Both have pros and cons, as expected. 

 

A try-before-you-buy VR environment would give you a very good idea of what you're paying for, whether you like how it handles, and so forth. On the other hand, it means you don't really have a clue what you're getting into before you buy, requires more work for NQ, and doesn't really allow any sort of objective ranking.

 

Trusted reviewers (presumably doing Youtube videos or something) would allow for somewhat more of an actual ratings system, and be able to give you a far better idea of what you're buying in advance, letting you actually plan to buy a specific type of ship. On the down side, they're only realistically going to be able to review mass-produced ships, it's not going to be worth their time to review small runs and unique models.

 

That said, that's realistic, to be honest. I suspect that what we'll see is more along the reviewer lines, as I'd be surprised if we had VR test functionality at launch. That would encourage mass production and a certain amount of standardisation, as in real life. If you want a custom ship, you'd then have to either build it yourself or work closely with a shipbuilder, paying extra money for the privilege of getting exactly what you want. There, your guarantee of quality would be the shipbuilder staking their reputation on your satisfaction - if you're not happy, you spread that fact around, and the shipbuilder doesn't get any more commissions.

 

We might even see an organisation of high-end custom ship builders spring up, the equivalent of Bugatti, Rolls-Royce, and the like, who specialise in one-off custom orders for very rich customers. Owning a Quasar-brand ship (for example) might become a status symbol, a sign of wealth and status. That could be very cool.

 

One way or another, the community will work out a means of making sure that ships can be bought and sold with some understanding of what you're getting. It won't be a simple list of statistics on the market page, though. I suspect it's more likely to be a manufacturer's description which is trusted to be honest, because the manufacturer lives by their reputation.

 

Hell, the game is all about emergent gameplay and player-driven politics. Maybe whatever nation-orgs become dominant will institute an Office of Trading Standards that you can complain to if a seller rips you off, and they can force compensation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, people are absolutely want to know what they're buying before they buy it. I'm not disputing that at all. But a simple list of statistics isn't going to work.

 

The two main suggestions that have come up that are workable are a VR environment to test-fly a ship in before you buy it, and the emergent gameplay of trusted reviewers. Both have pros and cons, as expected. 

 

A try-before-you-buy VR environment would give you a very good idea of what you're paying for, whether you like how it handles, and so forth. On the other hand, it means you don't really have a clue what you're getting into before you buy, requires more work for NQ, and doesn't really allow any sort of objective ranking.

 

Trusted reviewers (presumably doing Youtube videos or something) would allow for somewhat more of an actual ratings system, and be able to give you a far better idea of what you're buying in advance, letting you actually plan to buy a specific type of ship. On the down side, they're only realistically going to be able to review mass-produced ships, it's not going to be worth their time to review small runs and unique models.

 

That said, that's realistic, to be honest. I suspect that what we'll see is more along the reviewer lines, as I'd be surprised if we had VR test functionality at launch. That would encourage mass production and a certain amount of standardisation, as in real life. If you want a custom ship, you'd then have to either build it yourself or work closely with a shipbuilder, paying extra money for the privilege of getting exactly what you want. There, your guarantee of quality would be the shipbuilder staking their reputation on your satisfaction - if you're not happy, you spread that fact around, and the shipbuilder doesn't get any more commissions.

 

We might even see an organisation of high-end custom ship builders spring up, the equivalent of Bugatti, Rolls-Royce, and the like, who specialise in one-off custom orders for very rich customers. Owning a Quasar-brand ship (for example) might become a status symbol, a sign of wealth and status. That could be very cool.

 

One way or another, the community will work out a means of making sure that ships can be bought and sold with some understanding of what you're getting. It won't be a simple list of statistics on the market page, though. I suspect it's more likely to be a manufacturer's description which is trusted to be honest, because the manufacturer lives by their reputation.

 

Hell, the game is all about emergent gameplay and player-driven politics. Maybe whatever nation-orgs become dominant will institute an Office of Trading Standards that you can complain to if a seller rips you off, and they can force compensation.

The devs mentioned that the highest quality player desings would permiate, so I'm guessing there will be some kind of rating system for blueprints? it is possible however that simply players will talk, good ships and designs will get recommendations, there will be organized tournaments of some kind and the winner's design would likely be promoted, that sort of thing. Youtubers will definitely have a lot of influence here, the less info the trade system will present, the greater youtuber influence will be.

 

However so far selling completed constructs will effectively lock the sold construct in its current location, a buyer will probably have an opportunity to look at the construct before buying unless its stashed far away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The devs mentioned that the highest quality player desings would permiate, so I'm guessing there will be some kind of rating system for blueprints? it is possible however that simply players will talk, good ships and designs will get recommendations, there will be organized tournaments of some kind and the winner's design would likely be promoted, that sort of thing. Youtubers will definitely have a lot of influence here, the less info the trade system will present, the greater youtuber influence will be.

 

However so far selling completed constructs will effectively lock the sold construct in its current location, a buyer will probably have an opportunity to look at the construct before buying unless its stashed far away.

Well they said when you buy commodities you'll either have to pick them up or arrange transport. So buying a ship likely works the same. You go to where its physically located to complete the transaction. Personally would rather buy a construct from a players physical vendor shop. That way can actually see what you're buying and not just a text blurb on some UI interface.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can honestly say this summarises every thing very well and thankyou for your constructive comments. I agree with everything you have said about the two realistic soulutions. One of which I am in favour of, the ratings system. I still have to disagree with you on the fact that some simple stats calculated by the outputs of components used on the construct just simply won't work and is a waste of time tho, although perhaps just these stats and nothing else wouldn't be very specific as you have rightly pointed out. To simplify my point of this thread, If your buying a container dont you want to know what's inside? That's all. You are buying the components anyway even though there attached to a costruct. Having a rough idea of the components used could help you as a buyer to gauge a better understanding of the value and in many cases the all round spec you need to suit your requirements, and I don't mean performance here, that's best left to the rating system or test flight which could be another discussion. I understand this may mean that builders will be giving away a smal part of their design but we're only talking storage boxes fuel tanks ect aren't we?(I assume). I expect There will become standard class builds anyway. With the possibility of high tech or scaleable components in discussion even by the devs, this will have an even bigger effect on what I have mentioned above. Anyway we don't even know how items or ships will be presented yet so I suppose this topic is a little premature. It was just an idea. Looking forward to finding out more on the way markets work and ship performance statistics as two separate things before any of us really know how they are going to play out together when trading between players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Titanis, I have a lot of experience with KSP, programming, and RL performance estimations of designs. Heliomance is right. A list of basic characteristics of an spaceship that can be calculated automatically by DU will give little to no information about its real performance. He gives a really good example with thrusters pointing in diferent directions to add manoeuvrability. Simply adding thrust will not give you the total forward thrust of that design. Also, to judge manoeuvrability, is not the same if the main thrusters have some vectoring capability or not. I can imagine an autopilot script in a fighter that makes random changes of course, to try to confuse autotargeting weapons. How good such a feature will be can only be judged by a tester.

 

The solution is obvious, although I understand that is not totally satisfactory to you: you must really on other people judgement, just as in real life. For mass produced ships the obvious solution is to have people testing them and certifying builder supplied characteristics, and giving its proper ratings. For unique or low production designs the reputation of the builder will be of paramount importance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...