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RX1334

Conflict at the Beginning

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Question:

 

Assuming the immediate availability of the necessary resources to depart the 20-kilometer safe zone and begin development in hostile, unexplored area, how should the initial expansion frenzy be regulated?

 

Assumptions:

  1. that starting items include
    • Weapons of some sort (Carbines, Assault Rifles, Pistols)
    • Viable form of transportation (or the materials to build them)
    • Basic resources (Rations, Ammunition, etc.)
  2. that the safe zone can be exited immediately
  3. that PvP will be enabled immediately outside the safe zone
  4. that all constructs necessary are craftable and do not require purchase

Reasoning:

 

Acknowledging the existence of already potent organizations in the Dual Universe Community, one simply cannot ignore the possibility of highly organized and efficient efforts to immediately expand outwards and claim territories advantageous to the development of said groups. Given that the assumptions, which, in my opinion, are entirely plausible given that the spawn point is an advanced colonial spacecraft likely equipped for all but the worst scenarios, are to be true, such efforts are inevitable.  Furthermore, the relations between said groups cannot possibly be peaceful as they are essentially colonial corporations comparable to those of the American Colonial era (French and Indian War, Fall of New Amsterdam, Queen Annes War, etc.); they will invariably go into conflict upon meeting each other in locations of strategic importance. Those said conflicts will occur in very early stages of the game and may be disruptive to a healthy, paced progression in gameplay. 

 

One may ask the incentive of immediate expansion and exploration. Well, it is simple. What could an organization want more than a piece of rich land with unique resources and of strategic value on a planet which is unexplored? To find such a location would accelerate the rate of development of said group tremendously and would also create a temporary monopoly on said resource. Assuming that market prices at the beginning, which will be dictated by NPCs until the maturing of the player base, will fluctuate according to supply and demand, such a monopoly would generate funds immeasurably valuable to the said group in the long term.

 

Also, in the event where all constructs necessary to the full development of a corporation can be readily crafted provided the correct resources, there is no need to be in the presence of large population center or the spawn point; there are no restrictions on the expansion or construction of organization forward bases. Of course, if any of the provided assumptions above are to be false, then the argument provided above shall be invalid and can be ignored.

 

 

 

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I agree with most of your assumptions, and you are probably right in that well organized groups will immediately start expanding and constructing . This will also, as you said, lead to near instant conflict. One thing I'm not sure about, though, is whether this is a bad or good thing. One possibility is that the conflict will lead to lots of entertaining content and also increase the demand for materials, raising prices and helping to kick start the economy. It could also help check the rate of expansion for larger groups, giving the smaller groups a chance to not get left behind quite so fast. 

 

The main thing I am worried about is since everyone starts in the same safe zone, what if the first groups that go out end up forming a sort of ring around the edge of the safe zone, preventing others from being able to go out and acquire resources? That would sort of strangle everyone else trying to start out

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Claiming territories will require TU's (territory units) which as described so far, will be very challenging to construct. Ideally it would take a while before a TU could be built and placed, as some of the prerequisite material for them may be offword.

 

The hierarchy may be...

-planetary ship

-extraplanetary shup

-advanced refinery

-TU

-defensable colony

 

Leaving atleast one vulnerable stage (ship to TU). No idea what the in-between will look like, but I'm hoping claiming territory will not happen in the first few hours.

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Claiming territories will require TU's (territory units) which as described so far, will be very challenging to construct. Ideally it would take a while before a TU could be built and placed, as some of the prerequisite material for them may be offword.

 

This is a good point. I suppose this still leaves the possibility of having territory that isn't controlled but is so saturated with other players that travel becomes very dangerous for new players, but that is part of the sandbox I guess!

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The effect of TUs on larger Organizations can be described as negligible if one considers the manpower, resources, and potential of said groups. What is a TU really but a flag planted on a hill signifying that you own it? If anything, a TU is just an organizer for information and a warning system for trespassers; an essentially useless piece of equipment for those Organizations with the capability of constantly posting men in their "claimed" territories. There are no rules preventing the Organizations from taking on a shoot-to-kill policy on all foreigners in any given region; there are no restraints. The presence, or necessity, of a TU in early stages of the game is void. Think of it this way - unless some miraculous discovery is made, there is no method which my mind can concoct so as to allow a smaller group to develop a TU faster than a larger one. Thus there is no competition except with other larger organizations. Given the limited amount of larger organizations currently present and the sheer size of the starting planet, I fear the possibility of Larger Orgs monopolizing unique resources and destabilizing the game. Also, what is there to limit the "ring surrounding the safe zone prohibiting expansion"? What is there to prevent early domination in a world where no advanced technology exists to balance the difference in manpower? 

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The effect of TUs on larger Organizations can be described as negligible if one considers the manpower, resources, and potential of said groups. What is a TU really but a flag planted on a hill signifying that you own it? If anything, a TU is just an organizer for information and a warning system for trespassers; an essentially useless piece of equipment for those Organizations with the capability of constantly posting men in their "claimed" territories. There are no rules preventing the Organizations from taking on a shoot-to-kill policy on all foreigners in any given region; there are no restraints. The presence, or necessity, of a TU in early stages of the game is void. Think of it this way - unless some miraculous discovery is made, there is no method which my mind can concoct so as to allow a smaller group to develop a TU faster than a larger one. Thus there is no competition except with other larger organizations. Given the limited amount of larger organizations currently present and the sheer size of the starting planet, I fear the possibility of Larger Orgs monopolizing unique resources and destabilizing the game. Also, what is there to limit the "ring surrounding the safe zone prohibiting expansion"? What is there to prevent early domination in a world where no advanced technology exists to balance the difference in manpower?

If there are enough resources in the safe zone to allow you to leave orbit, it will be very hard for an org to trap incoming players. Not to mention one of the largest orgs at this moment is... Not likely to do that.

 

It is true that there is really no way for a solo player to build a TU faster than an org, but this is a cooperative game. The reality is that it will be built with teamwork as a key part of its core. Being a lone wolf will have clear disadvantages.

 

What if Weapons simply don't fire in the first 48 hours? What if rare resources don't appear right away and can't be mapped in advance, and appear over time after the first week? There are several ways that the devs can prevent a hunger games stuyle day 1 start, but since alpha has not even started (which won't include pvp mechanics or combat at start) we are a long way before we can guess what that could look like.

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I have already conceded that, in the event where any of said assumptions are to be false, which you seem to have failed to notice, then the argument presented would be invalid. You also seemed to have ignored the statement that TUs, in the current stage of development, have no use to Larger Organizations. If you were to argue that it would officially claim a territory, then I will tell you that, with the most certainty, that the larger organizations will develop TUs faster so as to nullify the possibility of their lands being claimed by individuals or smaller groups. However, what is the purpose of having a TU on a valuable piece of land without the manpower or resources to protect it against the larger corporations? Now, you say that there will be enough resources to allow the general population of participants to achieve orbital flight, where is your logic or evidence or source? Logically, that makes no sense. Why would the devs allow the game to progress so quickly during the early phases of the game? Then again, one simply does not build a space ship out of sticks and stones; surely it would require rare resources to compose the engines necessary to go into orbit. I personally have not heard of such evidence and nor do I know of a source that confirms your claim. Finally, even if Larger Organizations do not have the intention to trap newer players, what have you to say about the highly possible monopoly which will occur when a said group discovers, occupies, and begins collection of a certain rare resource. I see no possibility of the present Orgs presenting charitable behavior during the initiation phase of such a competitive game. 

 

Please keep in mind the assumptions made specifically for the post's argument.

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I think this is the kind of thing we won't really be able to meaningfully discuss till beta, since as far as I know alpha will be very construction oriented and not so much pvp oriented.  ;) I wouldn't be terribly shocked if players are able to build a low-grade ship with strictly safe-zone materials. I also wouldn't be terribly surprised if you could build your first ship BEFORE building your first weapon, but that's just a thought.

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Welcome to the forums RX1334.

 

I would like to see some info from NQ about how resources are distributed on planets and what kinds of resources are required for high level tech. I'd like to see more info about resources in general. I think that's the big hole in this discussion.

 

As far as OP goes, I say only the following: So what? That's the way it's going to be. Big orgs will always be stronger than smaller ones. NQ is actively designing the game so that the strength of an org follows with its membership. They want us to engage in emergent gameplay. If a monopoly emerges, then so be it. No need for artificial regulation. If they did want to prevent monopolizations, they would change the way resources are distributed, which is a more natural way of accomplishing the same task.

 

If they wanted that, perhaps they could add in some way of gathering rare materials as trace elements in a very common ore, similar to a popular Space Engineers mod does with refining stone. Tech would be locked behind a long term effort of refining and processing, instead of a short term effort of holding territory and strip mining.

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Cinderfall will be actively working to secure a spot for Emberstone which will be open to everyone unless they start causing a lot of problems like killing people in the streets or attacking buildings, then you'll get marked temporarily to be murdered by the security or any active forces.

 

What you're all bringing up is the basic lack of a fabric of society. That's precisely what csyn hopes to achieve. Well be actively helping noobies even if they go and join orgs which don't back the csyn mission to bring civilization to a lawless universe. As far as conflict, if we remain large or maintain considerable influence well lay down protective measures to guide beginners into the game.

 

If anyone builds around the ark field to try and hamper the newer people there's gonna be conflict. If Cinderfall and the syndicated members and any other friends build defences Around the field it'll probably be to keep the salty vets away.

 

If this is something that concerns you consider jumping into the csyn discord. If protecting organisations and player rights sounds good, we can solve more problems together than worrying about them divided

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Provided there isn't enough manpower to prevent new players from leaving spawn/buying and building ships, the worlds are procedurally generated: there will NOT be a hard limit on how many worlds have a given set number of resources. If you travel far enough in one direction, you stand a pretty good chance of not ever being accidentally found by other players (unless via scanners, which may have a limited range/can be jammed), and while also making it challenging to trade, a small org could have a nice long chunk of time to prep at the edge of the universe.

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"Assumptions:

that starting items include

Weapons of some sort (Carbines, Assault Rifles, Pistols)"

 

Or rocks, cargo crates, fists, boots, pushing people off the top of the Ark, sharp sticks, knives... Never underestimate the players ability to work out how to kill people, even without direct PvP :)

 

(Currently some of the community discussions do make it feel like DU will be less Earth 2.0 and more Hunger Games at full launch ;p )

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Wow, a lot of people replied to this post. Anyway. As for the argument of, "so be it", I worry about the growth of the game. You see, DU is a single shard MMORPG. A game of this genre faces the challenge of remaining a viable choice for newer players after the official release; if a game becomes too sophisticated or advanced or out of reach for a new player simply due to how much it has progressed or how much control the players already in the game have, that game will die. There needs to be a certain balance maintaining the playability of the game for new players. Who would want to play a game where everything, from resources to economy to gameplay, is controlled by in-game organizations? Sure, you can argue lots MMORPGs are like that; it is well known that games such as Guild Wars and World of Warcraft have had tremendous success despite having huge guilds. They have storylines, DU does not. Storylines and quests allow more advanced players to move on into further stages where they will not be of huge influence to newer players.  DU is a sandbox game; everything we will have is run by us. (Even in EVE, there is CONCORD and NPC marketplaces for newer players) Imagine logging into DU only to be faced by constructs and marketplaces built and run by Large Organizations and the be told that there is no in-game system for your protection; stepping outside the ark ship, you see no way of guaranteeing your own growth aside from joining an organization. Maybe that was how it was meant to be. 

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Wow, a lot of people replied to this post. Anyway. As for the argument of, "so be it", I worry about the growth of the game. You see, DU is a single shard MMORPG. A game of this genre faces the challenge of remaining a viable choice for newer players after the official release; if a game becomes too sophisticated or advanced or out of reach for a new player simply due to how much it has progressed or how much control the players already in the game have, that game will die. There needs to be a certain balance maintaining the playability of the game for new players. Who would want to play a game where everything, from resources to economy to gameplay, is controlled by in-game organizations? Sure, you can argue lots MMORPGs are like that; it is well known that games such as Guild Wars and World of Warcraft have had tremendous success despite having huge guilds. They have storylines, DU does not. Storylines and quests allow more advanced players to move on into further stages where they will not be of huge influence to newer players.  DU is a sandbox game; everything we will have is run by us. (Even in EVE, there is CONCORD and NPC marketplaces for newer players) Imagine logging into DU only to be faced by constructs and marketplaces built and run by Large Organizations and the be told that there is no in-game system for your protection; stepping outside the ark ship, you see no way of guaranteeing your own growth aside from joining an organization. Maybe that was how it was meant to be. 

 

Yeah kinda

 

However, there will probably be large orgs that provide support to non-members, that might replace something like tutorial missions within the game (heck that kinda sounds like fun). There will probably be some very casual orgs that will take just about anybody and are genuinely good to newbies.

 

One thing I'm pretty confident about though is that day 1 won't be like the first episode of sword art online, it probably won't be a bloodbath mad rush to sweet spots. This is the kind of thing they will be able to test out and iron out during beta, watching player behavior, finding a good way to encourage players to spread out and have time to experiment. The reason I believe that is because the prime focus of the game is building, and the devs stated that there will be a balance between pvp and non-pvp. Having players hanging out just outside the safezone with lazer snipers waiting for freshies to start their grand adventure does not represent balance.

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Provided there isn't enough manpower to prevent new players from leaving spawn/buying and building ships, the worlds are procedurally generated: there will NOT be a hard limit on how many worlds have a given set number of resources. If you travel far enough in one direction, you stand a pretty good chance of not ever being accidentally found by other players (unless via scanners, which may have a limited range/can be jammed), and while also making it challenging to trade, a small org could have a nice long chunk of time to prep at the edge of the universe.

 

This brings up another question: if people are able to get away and prepare to easily in the beginning, will there be any conflict? Lack of conflict could be just as damning as no conflict, as conflict will drive the economy. The key will be balancing conflict in the beginning so that there is enough conflict to get things moving but not so much as to affect the play-ability of the game.

 

NOTE: By conflict I mean both pvp and competition for resources

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This brings up another question: if people are able to get away and prepare to easily in the beginning, will there be any conflict? Lack of conflict could be just as damning as no conflict, as conflict will drive the economy. The key will be balancing conflict in the beginning so that there is enough conflict to get things moving but not so much as to affect the play-ability of the game.

 

NOTE: By conflict I mean both pvp and competition for resources

Again, probably something they will have to iron out during beta. I'm thinking there will be tools out there for people whi want to pvp to make it easier to find other players. Radar, followint trade, etc. after players get set up we might see some really neat raiding

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Wow, a lot of people replied to this post. Anyway. As for the argument of, "so be it", I worry about the growth of the game. You see, DU is a single shard MMORPG. A game of this genre faces the challenge of remaining a viable choice for newer players after the official release; if a game becomes too sophisticated or advanced or out of reach for a new player simply due to how much it has progressed or how much control the players already in the game have, that game will die. There needs to be a certain balance maintaining the playability of the game for new players. Who would want to play a game where everything, from resources to economy to gameplay, is controlled by in-game organizations? Sure, you can argue lots MMORPGs are like that; it is well known that games such as Guild Wars and World of Warcraft have had tremendous success despite having huge guilds. They have storylines, DU does not. Storylines and quests allow more advanced players to move on into further stages where they will not be of huge influence to newer players.  DU is a sandbox game; everything we will have is run by us. (Even in EVE, there is CONCORD and NPC marketplaces for newer players) Imagine logging into DU only to be faced by constructs and marketplaces built and run by Large Organizations and the be told that there is no in-game system for your protection; stepping outside the ark ship, you see no way of guaranteeing your own growth aside from joining an organization. Maybe that was how it was meant to be. 

 

First things first:

When signing up to DU you KNOW that it is player run. This is why we want that game, because PLAYERS run it and not some random guy with a callsign above him. WE make the story. that's the whole point of a sandbox. Yes players will mess the market up, that's the point. Yes big Orgs will run whole planets and if you don't do what they tell you, they kill you, that's the point.

 

2) Eve has no npc market

 

3) lone wolfs will have a hard time in this game (it's a MMO, you know).

 

4) If all space is taken, nothing left to explore, you are not welcomed anywhere in the known universe of DU.....well.....then....just fly to a whole new planet and build your own stuff there?

 

I really think that a sandbox game is beyond your understanding, you are obviously not the kind of player who sees fun (and the gameplay) in messing up the markets (no offense).

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