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So forgive me if this has been discussed but I have not seen anything on it yet. However I am new here and haven't had time to dig into everything, just skim. 

 

 

I wanted to talk about blueprints in the game and how they will work. I have seen some post that mentioned blueprints for devices, such as motors and drills, but I have seen nothing on blueprints for ships. 

 

 

First lets start with devices, I am sure there will be a number of basic device blueprints that are easily obtained, with some possibly being much harder to find. This is nice to have but not what I am talking about. Something I would like to see with these is research to upgrade the stats on a generic blueprint giving it RNG modifiers, but I will make a specific post about that. 

 

The blueprints I am talking about are the unique ones for your creations. Every ship that a player will make has to be made by hand, at least once anyway. I am unsure if they are going to go with a system where you place the blocks in the open world to build it, or design it then have some sort of assembler construct it, but either way I think there needs to be some way to create a blueprint of your ship. 

 

The first reason is obvious, to easily reproduce it again, especially for things like fighters that will be used a lot. Personally, in games like Starmade and Space engineers I would spend a lot of time designing and balancing ships to be just right. But if they were blown up I loose all that work and have to try to recreate it from memory. Starmade had a blueprint system which allowed me to make another that was exactly the same, as long as I had the parts. Space Engineers however, at least when I played, did not have any system to do this easily. 

 

Space Engineers, I believe has a blueprint projection system to show you where the parts are, but it is only a guide and you can still make errors. Now I would not want a system where I just add the parts into the blueprint and spawn it in. Starmade had this but was fading it out into a shipyard system, you load the blueprint into a construction yard and it slowly assembles it if it has the parts. For a game that plans to be massive scale, I think this would be the preferred method I would choose. The size of the shipyard would dictate the size of ships you could construct, and things like assemblers and CPU power could dictate the scale and speed of the shipyard. 

 

An added bonus of this is they could be used to repair damaged ships. When you are in a battle theres sometimes very large damage that is easily caught, but theres always something minor or hidden that you dont always catch. Having some sort of system to help repair this is needed with massive constructs. 

 

The second would be to sell them. If I create a really nice, well rounded battle cruiser, people may want to buy it from me, either because they like it or just dont want to be bothered them self.  Now selling ships has been mentioned before, and I don't want to get side tracked into the trade system. But if I spend hours shaping and designing this amazing ship, why couldn't I just blueprint it and make another. Maybe I like my ship and want to keep it for myself as well. Or maybe I want to just copy my blueprints and sell them to others so they can make their own. 

 

I would like to see 2 types of blueprints, like eve a BP Original and a BP Copy. The copy would have a limited number of uses, 1 or more set by the copy process. It would be to allow you to build my creation in a limited number. Where as the original would be unlimited uses and could make more copies. If a RNG research aspect is introduced this could be a way to sell your research as well. 

 

Now with blueprints comes the possibility to steal other peoples designs. Which why not? But I would suggest a system thats not as easy as get in and make a blueprint of a ship. Maybe have a encoded lock so that only the creator can make a blueprint. Possibly be able to hack the system so you can copy a stolen ship for yourself.  Maybe it has to deconstruction the ship to know the full details of the blueprint. I would hate to have no way of replicating a stolen ship, but I dont want it to be to easy. 

 

 

 

So what are yall thoughts on this?

Has this been discussed already and where?

Any other additions or suggestions you would make on the topic of blueprints? (I will make a separate post about RNG research ideas later.)

 

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If not mistaken, I do believe Nyzaltar mentioned a while back that players would be able to construct ship blueprints and sell them to the masses, or that player would be able to purchase ship blueprints after they used their starter ship...

 

I'll edit this reply once I find the info, if not i'll let Nyzaltar confirm it...

 

As for the Space Engineers type of blue print that helps repair a ship, that's actually a neat idea... would come in handy if you need to make fast repairs when you are not near a port or stations to make the repairs, but you would still need the resources to repair it. For hacking a blueprint or obtaining it, I can only see that coming into play if a there is a big player made ship, but the blueprints haven't been made public or there is a reason to not make it public, in which case a blueprint hacking system could be nifty.

 

 

 

Edit: I couldn't find the info, so i'll let Nyzaltar confirm it... however I do believe we'll be able to make our own ship blueprints and sell/trade them to players.

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I would like to see 2 types of blueprints, like eve a BP Original and a BP Copy. The copy would have a limited number of uses, 1 or more set by the copy process. It would be to allow you to build my creation in a limited number. Where as the original would be unlimited uses and could make more copies. If a RNG research aspect is introduced this could be a way to sell your research as well. 

 

This has actually been confirmed by Nyz... keep forgetting how to spell the name... in a devblog or something somewhere, i just can't find it right now... figures.

 

But from what i read the blueprint system will work as you've mentioned, There is a Master Copy for continuous use that the creator keeps him/herself and then generates a copy of it for a one time use only version to be sold/traded.

 

The only thing I can't remember is the protection or the way that blueprints are created. Like you've said, whats stopping me buying your blueprint then the just copying it and having a master myself to sell... maybe for a little cheaper.. I might have read something about that but can't remember it... I'll have to hunt out the post where it's located and link it here....

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Here are the Dev Blogs of interest

 

Building with Voxels

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/378-devblog-builder-gameplay-voxel-tools-elements/

 

Tools:

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/14-voxel-tools-pre-alpha-game-design/

 

Rights Management:

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/272-devblog-rights-duty-management-system-rdms/

 

Economy:

https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/12/04/from-barter-to-market-economy/

 

My understanding is you buy the construct.  Unless the builder actually offers the blueprint for sale.

 

Of course, there's nothing stopping the player from reverse engineering the construct.

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Thanks, I'm going to have a look through these again to see if I missed anything or incorrectly gave out any information that's more in my head that on the devs battle plan..

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Thanks for the info guys. I actually went through and read all the Dev post today. They definitely have put a lot of thought and detail into it. 

 

The question still remains though at what it will take to get a snapshot and blueprint of your construct.

 

Can anyone in it snapshot it or just the owner?

What is required to create the BP over a snapshot?

Will you be able to set permissions for creating blueprints?

Can you sell the blueprint or just the construct?

Assuming you can sell the BP, the ship is likely to be fully theirs as if they created it. If so are there any protections from them snapshotting or blueprinting it?

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Thanks for the info guys. I actually went through and read all the Dev post today. They definitely have put a lot of thought and detail into it. 

 

The question still remains though at what it will take to get a snapshot and blueprint of your construct.

 

Can anyone in it snapshot it or just the owner?

What is required to create the BP over a snapshot?

Will you be able to set permissions for creating blueprints?

Can you sell the blueprint or just the construct?

Assuming you can sell the BP, the ship is likely to be fully theirs as if they created it. If so are there any protections from them snapshotting or blueprinting it?

 

I haven't read anything official and the only thing i know is more 'my take' on what's been said.

 

But it sounds like you will have a 'building state' (or something like that) where you construct and build everything you like under 'your name' and it's yours, you can build/ add/ copy/ paste what you like.

 

If you give it to another person as a blueprint or copy they will not be able to enter this 'build state' which would restrict unauthorised copying unless you give them permissions, and the only way they can do anything is through player damage.. I think the permissions system is referred to as 'tags' not 100% on that though... 

 

But if my take on what they're doing is correct then it would explain a log of the background protection system too, such as building and player bases... and i would be 100% ok with a system something like this. it would mean i could build till my hearts content and not have to worry about someone coming and stealing all my nice designs.

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I haven't read anything official and the only thing i know is more 'my take' on what's been said.

 

But it sounds like you will have a 'building state' (or something like that) where you construct and build everything you like under 'your name' and it's yours, you can build/ add/ copy/ paste what you like.

 

If you give it to another person as a blueprint or copy they will not be able to enter this 'build state' which would restrict unauthorised copying unless you give them permissions, and the only way they can do anything is through player damage.. I think the permissions system is referred to as 'tags' not 100% on that though... 

 

But if my take on what they're doing is correct then it would explain a log of the background protection system too, such as building and player bases... and i would be 100% ok with a system something like this. it would mean i could build till my hearts content and not have to worry about someone coming and stealing all my nice designs.

 

 

Yes, it did seem there is the real world building as well as a virtual. If you create a blueprint in the virtual that is all fine and good, but what about once you make it and then modify it later? Can you recreate blueprints or are you stuck to snapshots?

 

I understand that you wont have the answers, I am just stating the questions I still have. 

 

And if I sell you a BPC then I wouldnt expect you to be able to copy it. But if you build the ship and there is a way to make a BP out of a ship crafted in the real world (game) then could they make one them self?  Because then once you sell it once it almost becomes pointless. 

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My interpretation is that the virtual simulator will provide everything builders need to protect the time they spend creating things.  I think it would make sense to have save functionality in the VS.  Players can save anything and everything they like in the VS and use those saves to build "real" Blueprints in the actual game universe.  In this way a player never lose their own creations - even if their BPs are all stolen/lost/sold they can always create another BP from their saved creation in the VS.

 

In the "real" world I'd say BPs can be made only from original creations - i.e. something that was put together manually, voxel by voxel as opposed to something that was built using a BP.  So if you steal an original creation you can create a BP from it easily.  If you steal a production line creation made from a BP you'll have to reverse engineer your own version and make a BP from that if you want to build more of them.  The only problem I see here is how/whether an original creation made in the real world can be saved to the VS, and if not what incentive is there to do so, especially outside of protected areas.

 

Personally I don't like the idea of BPCs and BPOs.  A BP is a BP and can be reused ad infinitum to build the creation they represent (assuming the materials are available), but a BP cannot be "copied".  BPs can only be created in the ways I describe above.  I think this has far better immersion and gameplay prospects.  BPs for the best creations will have a higher price tag.   It also incentivises creators to release newer improved versions of their creations.  This way creators are creators and have all the strengths and weaknesses inherent to that professions.  The BPO/BPC system makes sense in Eve's predefined universe, where there are no true creators, but in DU I think it would be counter-productive.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear, my post is my interpretation, opinion, and ideas.  NQ may already have their own solid plans for the creating/building/copying system and it may be completely different to what I have posted!

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My interpretation is that the virtual simulator will provide everything builders need to protect the time they spend creating things.  I think it would make sense to have save functionality in the VS.  Players can save anything and everything they like in the VS and use those saves to build "real" Blueprints in the actual game universe.  In this way a player never lose their own creations - even if their BPs are all stolen/lost/sold they can always create another BP from their saved creation in the VS.

 

In the "real" world I'd say BPs can be made only from original creations - i.e. something that was put together manually, voxel by voxel as opposed to something that was built using a BP.  So if you steal an original creation you can create a BP from it easily.  If you steal a production line creation made from a BP you'll have to reverse engineer your own version and make a BP from that if you want to build more of them.  The only problem I see here is how/whether an original creation made in the real world can be saved to the VS, and if not what incentive is there to do so, especially outside of protected areas.

 

Personally I don't like the idea of BPCs and BPOs.  A BP is a BP and can be reused ad infinitum to build the creation they represent (assuming the materials are available), but a BP cannot be "copied".  BPs can only be created in the ways I describe above.  I think this has far better immersion and gameplay prospects.  BPs for the best creations will have a higher price tag.   It also incentivises creators to release newer improved versions of their creations.  This way creators are creators and have all the strengths and weaknesses inherent to that professions.  The BPO/BPC system makes sense in Eve's predefined universe, where there are no true creators, but in DU I think it would be counter-productive.

 

 

 

I am not against your interpretation if thats they way they choose to do it. But consider this. 

 

I build my Daedalus class BC in Virtual Virtual Reality. Its all working so I decided to build it in the real virtual world. Since it is my first massive ship I obviously don't get it all right. So i decided to upgrade it in the real world. (this will happen often with large creations) Now how could I make a blueprint from this since it is not in VR. 

Now I could have modified it in VR, but then what do i do. Do i tear apart my existing one for the resources to make the upgraded one?

 

So I think having the ability to create blueprints in the real world is required. Some people prefer to work only in the real world. Remember the VR is there for those who choose to use it, not a necessity. But there is the concern of protections. 

 

 

Now I like the idea that a BP can only be made from an original creation, but what if I make a ship, loose it, make a new one from a BP, then modify it. Do I loose the ability to make a new BP of the modified version. Also consider this, I build a core fighter module and use a BP to make several then modify them for specific roles. I would want a BP for each of these. 

 

This is why I like the idea of creator tags. If I start the creation it is tagged with my name in the meta data. This can be compared with the owners tag and if they match it would allow an easy BP creation. That way even if you modify a ship from one of your BPs you can save it easily. However I do like the idea that someone can steal your designs. But I dont think it should be so easy, not just saving when your in the ship. I like the idea of brining it into a shipyard and have it deconstruction piece by piece and make yourself a BP of it. This process could remove the creator tag that would have been embedded into it.

 

 

And I would have to disagree with you on the BPC and BPO. Since the BPs are digital you could have them embedded with destructive routines that destroy them after being used so many times. It could also be possible to use this to protect it from copying. Also since we already have the tagging system outlined by the Devs, this could be used to essentially create a BPC. I could sell you the right to use my BPO once or maybe 10 times. Or maybe an unlimited use at 1k credits a use. 

The problem is with a BPO, unlimited access to it, you loose your creation as soon as you sell it once. But I would have to say that needing BPOs and BPCs may not be a necessity depending on the creation system and if they utilize embedded tags. 

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This is why I like the idea of creator tags. If I start the creation it is tagged with my name in the meta data. This can be compared with the owners tag and if they match it would allow an easy BP creation. That way even if you modify a ship from one of your BPs you can save it easily. However I do like the idea that someone can steal your designs. But I dont think it should be so easy, not just saving when your in the ship. I like the idea of brining it into a shipyard and have it deconstruction piece by piece and make yourself a BP of it. This process could remove the creator tag that would have been embedded into it.

 

 

I don't like this, what's stopping me buying your ship instead of stealing it and taking it to a shipyard and copying the design and then selling it on? This would negate all the reason for having a creator tag on it, as you can remove it.

 

I think there should be only 2 systems here:

 

A Master BP that you can keep, change, edit, and spawn infinite creations from forever.. You can trade this, sell it, maybe lose it on death , but this is the master and the only way to spawn a copy BP of the creation.

Masters can be put into a build mode where you can change anything about it if you own the BP

 

Then you have copies of the master, this would be a single use item, you use it it disappears, gone forever, but you have 1 exact copy of whatever BP it came from, this would also be up for trade or selling or even stealing, but remains a single use item, you would never own it or be able to alter it in any way, this would be a one off... lose it or have it destroyed and you need to buy another one... Obviously a way to repair them would be nice.

Copies would never have the ability to be put into a build mode, preventing the option of stealing the design and making your own BP from it.

 

Anything other than this is think is just over complicating what should be a simple system.

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I don't like this, what's stopping me buying your ship instead of stealing it and taking it to a shipyard and copying the design and then selling it on? This would negate all the reason for having a creator tag on it, as you can remove it.

 

 

Nothing, except that you loose all its resources. This option would have to be more of a hacking or possibly chance of failure thing. 

 

 

And I am ok with this except for the scenario i mentioned about me modifying my own ship in the real world and wanting a bp of it for saving. Your situation only allows you to bp things made in the virtual world, but not the main world. 

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I am not against your interpretation if thats they way they choose to do it. But consider this. 

 

I build my Daedalus class BC in Virtual Virtual Reality. Its all working so I decided to build it in the real virtual world. Since it is my first massive ship I obviously don't get it all right. So i decided to upgrade it in the real world. (this will happen often with large creations) Now how could I make a blueprint from this since it is not in VR. 

Now I could have modified it in VR, but then what do i do. Do i tear apart my existing one for the resources to make the upgraded one?

 

So I think having the ability to create blueprints in the real world is required. Some people prefer to work only in the real world. Remember the VR is there for those who choose to use it, not a necessity. But there is the concern of protections. 

 

This is why I like the idea of creator tags. If I start the creation it is tagged with my name in the meta data. This can be compared with the owners tag and if they match it would allow an easy BP creation. That way even if you modify a ship from one of your BPs you can save it easily. However I do like the idea that someone can steal your designs. But I dont think it should be so easy, not just saving when your in the ship. I like the idea of brining it into a shipyard and have it deconstruction piece by piece and make yourself a BP of it. This process could remove the creator tag that would have been embedded into it.

 

 

What I meant was that you could create a BP from something you build in the VS or from an original creation you build in the "real" world.

 

But yes, that does leave the problem of how to deal with creating BPs from modified non-original creations (I'll call them copy creations).  The tagging system could provide the answer in this case.

 

 

 

And I would have to disagree with you on the BPC and BPO. Since the BPs are digital you could have them embedded with destructive routines that destroy them after being used so many times. It could also be possible to use this to protect it from copying. Also since we already have the tagging system outlined by the Devs, this could be used to essentially create a BPC. I could sell you the right to use my BPO once or maybe 10 times. Or maybe an unlimited use at 1k credits a use. 

The problem is with a BPO, unlimited access to it, you loose your creation as soon as you sell it once. But I would have to say that needing BPOs and BPCs may not be a necessity depending on the creation system and if they utilize embedded tags. 

 

You wouldn't lose your creation as soon as you sell it once.  Any BP you sell is one of a kind and cannot be copied.  The purchaser of your BP has one and cannot have another one unless he buys another one from you.  All he gets is the ability to build as many of those contructs as he likes/is able to.  You control the supply of your BPs because you are the only person who can create more of them, therefore you have a monopoly over the BPs.   If you have a good product you can sell a BP to lots of different players/organisations, and some will even want multiples so that they can build multiple units simultaneously and in different locations.  So the creator is still empowered, but to maximise profits the creator has to keep creating new things.

 

BPOs and BPCs make sense in Eve because no one designs anything new.  You skill up your science and create a BPO for a predefined item, you then use that to create BPCs that you sell to manufacturers.  If there were no BPCs eventually everyone could have a BPO for every item in existence so science would be a completely worthless profession.  In DU there are no such limitations because there is actual intellectual property being made, and the possibilities are literally infinite.

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BPOs and BPCs make sense in Eve because no one designs anything new.  You skill up your science and create a BPO for a predefined item, you then use that to create BPCs that you sell to manufacturers.  If there were no BPCs eventually everyone could have a BPO for every item in existence so science would be a completely worthless profession.  In DU there are no such limitations because there is actual intellectual property being made, and the possibilities are literally infinite.

You should view BPCs as mere licenses to build something. A BPC is no real blueprint. We still don't know how the research systems will work. If we get real 'copies' of blueprints, we should be able to modify and research them as we don't have legal issues in Dual Universe other than made by players. So if we have a blueprint, it does not matter whether it is a original or a copy. It is just a piece of information how to create something and this copy itself should be able to copy, modify or research further. Because, who or what should be preventing us from doing so? After all we are there to rebuild humanity and for that everything should be ...

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Blueprints could be really interesting :P But I doupt I would use them that much as I LOVE the idea to craft my own things :D but we will see in the end don't we?

But the idea of selling blueprints are also quite interesting, I mean if someone managed to create the OPTIMAL type of ship, then all would like it wouldn't they?

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Blueprints could be really interesting :P But I doupt I would use them that much as I LOVE the idea to craft my own things :D but we will see in the end don't we?

 

But the idea of selling blueprints are also quite interesting, I mean if someone managed to create the OPTIMAL type of ship, then all would like it wouldn't they?

 

I like them more for the idea of easily replacing my ships, rather than buying someone elses design. 

 

But I intend to have a few designs of smaller ships on the market. 

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Blueprints could be really interesting :P But I doupt I would use them that much as I LOVE the idea to craft my own things :D but we will see in the end don't we?

 

But the idea of selling blueprints are also quite interesting, I mean if someone managed to create the OPTIMAL type of ship, then all would like it wouldn't they?

Understandable. But not everyone is into crafting. Creating a big ship will use up not only loads of ressources but also quite some hours of designing, testing and adjusting. I am sure not everyone is willing to spend that much. Especially the big ones are worth a blueprint.

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Understandable. But not everyone is into crafting. Creating a big ship will use up not only loads of ressources but also quite some hours of designing, testing and adjusting. I am sure not everyone is willing to spend that much. Especially the big ones are worth a blueprint.

Hmm, I wonder how long it will take to create a Capital ship... Will it be like eve when it takes like many many months to even get the resources?

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My thoughts exactly. And will a single player be able to safely store that amount of resources to ever get a chance to build one himself?

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My thoughts exactly. And will a single player be able to safely store that amount of resources to ever get a chance to build one himself?

Mhmm :P It will be tricky, that I have to say.

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