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CoreVamore

Hand Weapons

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A thought....

 

All characters have a very basic stun/minimal-damage gun built into their arm just like the mining tool is. This weapon is almost useless against anyone in a suit but handy at very close quarters and against wild life.

 

Now here is the actual suggestion.

 

The first gun level above the basic stun gun is large, power hungry and more powerful. As the gun performances increase the gun gets physically smaller, more efficient and more powerful until....

 

It reaches the point of looking identical to the beginners basic stun gun.

 

This would give newbies an extra level of safety as potential aggressors would have to second guess themselves.

 

The only difference to the super hand gun would be the type of beam it emits. By then the attacker will realise the fatal error they have made....

 

So, worth doing?  :)

 

# Amendment: The thought of the basic gun only being able to stun has thrown people of my idea, lets just assume it can do damage, just very little damage compared to all the more powerful gun types.

 

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8 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

This would give newbies an extra level of safety as potential agressors would have to second guess themselves

Why?

Because, as you said yourself:

8 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

This weapon is useless against anyone in a suit

 

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13 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Why?

Because, as you said yourself:

 

The top level weapon would naturally blow away anyone in a suit, it would just look like the basic stun gun.

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4 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

The top level weapon would naturally blow away anyone in a suit, it would just look like the basic stun gun.

It seems a bit backwards to have a gun that does nothing to you in PvP and a gun that can blow you away look exactly the same. I like the idea of giving a progression system to your starting gun, as it will easily allow new players to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think it needs to be some form of trickery. If the gun is enough to push away aggressors, wouldn't it be better for the player to have it look dangerous, so that they don't get attacked in the first place?

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3 hours ago, Excavy said:

It seems a bit backwards to have a gun that does nothing to you in PvP and a gun that can blow you away look exactly the same. I like the idea of giving a progression system to your starting gun, as it will easily allow new players to be able to defend themselves. I just don't think it needs to be some form of trickery. If the gun is enough to push away aggressors, wouldn't it be better for the player to have it look dangerous, so that they don't get attacked in the first place?

You are totally missing the point.

 

If the most powerful gun looks the same as the weakest gun then an opponent will think twice, and that second thought might stop them attacking. Thus adding a potential level of protection for noobies.

 

It's also not a form of trickery, this type of thing is done in warfare, and hunting,  all the time.

 

It's that "Surprise MothaFecker!" moment.

 

And that may keep noobies a bit safer.

 

 

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1 minute ago, CoreVamore said:

You are totally missing the point.

 

If the most powerful gun looks the same as the weakest gun then an opponent will think twice, and that second thought might stop them attacking. Thus adding a potential level of protection for noobies.

 

It's also not a form of trickery, this type of thing is done in warfare, and hunting,  all the time.

 

It's that "Surprise MothaFecker!" moment.

 

And that may keep noobies a bit safer.

 

 

The second thought to keep them from attacking should be the fact that they have a good gun, not that they are completely clueless as to how powerful the gun is.

 

I don't get why that concept is necessary to protect noobs. When you first start, of course you are gonna be weaker, you have to work your way up by beating tougher opponents. Instead of making a cheap trick that drags down PvP for higher level players for the sake of lower level players, why don't you give the noobs a way to actually outplay an opponent and learn? 

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10 minutes ago, Excavy said:

The second thought to keep them from attacking should be the fact that they have a good gun, not that they are completely clueless as to how powerful the gun is.

 

I don't get why that concept is necessary to protect noobs. When you first start, of course you are gonna be weaker, you have to work your way up by beating tougher opponents. Instead of making a cheap trick that drags down PvP for higher level players for the sake of lower level players, why don't you give the noobs a way to actually outplay an opponent and learn? 

You have never been chopped by a sleeper car in a drag have you?

 

Thats the point.

 

I dont believe in creating game mechanics to give noobs a combat advantage, cosmetics however are a different thing.

 

I dont see how it would drag down high level PvP play, how would it? Do you think cosmetics determines how far, powerful, often, a powerful gun can fire? If so I have a red stripe I can sell you to put on your car to make it go faster  ;)

 

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8 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

You have never been chopped by a sleeper car in a drag have you?

 

Thats the point.

 

I dont believe in creating game mechanics to give noobs a combat advantage, cosmetics however are a different thing.

 

I dont see how it would drag down high level PvP play, how would it? Do you think cosmetics determines how far, powerful, often, a powerful gun can fire? If so I have a red stripe I can sell you to put on your car.  ;)

 

The cosmetic effects the strategical part of the PvP. If you seriously want to argue that changing the cosmetic does nothing, then you're just invalidating your original point.

 

Making two guns look the exact same lowers the skill ceiling of PvP, since it eliminates the choice to play around their weapon's stats and abilities. That's like putting a rifle in the game with a shotgun weapon model. It takes the strategy of playing around a person's weapon out of the game.

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2 minutes ago, Excavy said:

The cosmetic effects the strategical part of the PvP. If you seriously want to argue that changing the cosmetic does nothing, then you're juts invalidation your original point.

 

Changing cosmetics does nothing to the power of the gun, only to someone who has a close look at the gun and assumes its gun XYZ. That affects strategy only, not the power/capabilities of the gun. You need to re-read what I said and stop arguing about something that you just basically agreed with me on - it effects strategy and that ADDS a level of combat ;)

 

 

2 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Making two guns look the exact same lowers the skill ceiling of PvP, since it eliminates the choice to play around their weapon's stats and abilities. That's like putting a rifle in the game with a shotgun weapon model. It takes the strategy of playing around a person's weapon out of the game.

Weapons stats and players skills are exactly that. Weapons stats are attributed to the weapon, player skills to the player, and combined they give the theoretical combat effectiveness of that combination.

 

Now, the looks of a weapon have zero bearing on the above, ZERO. As you stated above it only effects Strategy, adding a layer.... "is that 5 member team sneaking up on your flank really a bunch of noobs or some crack troops?"  They COULD be a bunch of noobs, but you might react as if you are about to be entering a world of hurt and bolt out of there. You may think they are noobs and then enter a world of hurt as your world explodes around you.

 

Thats MORE gameplay, More options. More potential pain and tears. And yet.....

 

Has the ability to make noobs a lil safer, until they upgrade their gun and show the world that they are basically a noob ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, CoreVamore said:

 

Changing cosmetics does nothing to the power of the gun, only to someone who has a close look at the gun and assumes its gun XYZ. That affects strategy only, not the power/capabilities of the gun. You need to re-read what I said and stop arguing about something that you just basically agreed with me on - it effects strategy and that ADDS a level of combat ;)

 

 

Weapons stats and players skills are exactly that. Weapons stats are attributed to the weapon, player skills to the player, and combined they give the theoretical combat effectiveness of that combination.

 

Now, the looks of a weapon have zero bearing on the above, ZERO. As you stated above it only effects Strategy, adding a layer.... "is that 5 member team sneaking up on your flank really a bunch of noobs or some crack troops?"  They COULD be a bunch of noobs, but you might react as if you are about to be entering a world of hurt and bolt out of there. You may think they are noobs and then enter a world of hurt as your world explodes around you.

 

Thats MORE gameplay, More options. More potential pain and tears. And yet.....

 

Has the ability to make noobs a lil safer, until they upgrade their gun and show the world that they are basically a noob ;)

 

 

I don't understand how you can argue that it adds more strategy. In order to even begin to strategize around your opponent, you have to scout their gear. If you have no idea whether a part of their gear is one thing or the other due to them both looking the exact same, it cuts off even a chance of strategizing against it.

 

Now I understand this is only one gun, but it is very dangerous to set that precedent. It is not fun to strategize around your opponent, only to lose because of an impossibly easy to pull of trick. There is no strategy put in on the other person's end, and all the strategy of the other person is for naught. There is no counter-play to what you are suggesting other than to take a blind guess or not take the fight completely. Either way, this is not beneficial for neither higher level players nor lower level players. It is frustrating to higher level players and doesn't allow for any real learning on the part of a lower level player since he is either going up against players that are blindly guessing against them or he is just not fighting anyone since they are all scared.

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Making noobs "safer" does not make the game fun and does not make for a balanced game. 

 

PvP zones should be risky, no matter your skill level

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3 minutes ago, Excavy said:

I don't understand how you can argue that it adds more strategy. In order to even begin to strategize around your opponent, you have to scout their gear. If you have no idea whether a part of their gear is one thing or the other due to them both looking the exact same, it cuts off even a chance of strategizing against it.

I could do the exact same thing my not equipping my gun till I am right on top of the enemy, so no amount of scouting will help you. And the Pain will Rain on your position before you realise you have been tricked. Yes Tricked, it happens all the time in warfare. Is it fair? Nopes! Is it strategy? YES!

 

3 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Now I understand this is only one gun, but it is very dangerous to set that precedent. It is not fun to strategize around your opponent, only to lose because of an impossibly easy to pull of trick. There is no strategy put in on the other person's end, and all the strategy of the other person is for naught. There is no counter-play to what you are suggesting other than to take a blind guess or not take the fight completely. Either way, this is not beneficial for neither higher level players nor lower level players. It is frustrating to higher level players and doesn't allow for any real learning on the part of a lower level player since he is either going up against players that are blindly guessing against them or he is just not fighting anyone since they are all scared.

You cant fight any battle knowing 100% exactly what your opponent is bringing to the fight, there is always an element of the unknown. If you believe otherwise then its obvious you haven't played games like Eve Online, something that NQ has said countless times that DU will, in part, be modeled on. Uncertainty in combat is one of those aspects.

 

Not even spies can tell you every possible tactic or equipment loadout. For example a team, that you thought were enemies, might show up on the field to help your team wipe out the actual enemy you are fighting. Organised at higher levels than the spy has access too. So.... uncertainty... covert.... secret....  unknowns.... are what make gameplay both more enveloping and exciting!

 

Charge headlong into battle having no idea of your opponent(s) is a big rush, even if you die, its a big rush.

 

My suggestion adds to this uncertainty, adds complexity, adds to strategy while at the same time giving a little bit more protection to noobies.

 

Hopefully you can see this, and if not then thats not my issue.

 

In short - life is risky  ;)

 

 

 

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Just now, CoreVamore said:

I could do the exact same thing my not equipping my gun till I am right on top of the enemy, so no amount of scouting will help you. And the Pain will Rain on your position before you realise you have been tricked. Yes Tricked, it happens all the time in warfare. Is it fair? Nopes! Is it strategy? YES!

 

That requires some modicum of thinking. You are suggesting giving people an advantage for free, with no mental effort. That is not strategy. There was no creative thinking on the player's part. 

3 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

You cant fight any battle knowing 100% exactly what your opponent is bringing to the fight, there is always an element of the unknown. If you believe otherwise then its obvious you haven't played games like Eve Online, something that NQ has said countless times that DU will, in part, be modeled on. Uncertainty in combat is one of those aspects.

Uncertainty is one thing. Having the game visually trick you is another. Not only do you not know what their weapon is, it appears as something it is not. And its not as if your opponent is at all uncertain at all. They know they have the advantage no matter what.

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6 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Uncertainty is one thing. Having the game visually trick you is another. Not only do you not know what their weapon is, it appears as something it is not. And its not as if your opponent is at all uncertain at all. They know they have the advantage no matter what.

Its no different to a normal opponent having an advantage by not equipping their weapon till the last moment as well. Its the same tactic you can play too. Its not rocket science. Its not the game visually tricking you. By the time you can see their weapons its likely too late anyway.

 

I have the sense you just dont like surprises in battle, I dont like them either, however, they are a facet of any confrontation, they are a facet of life as well. You can't control everything, all the time, chaos/randomness/uncertainty rules all worlds, order is an illusion we make for ourselves.

 

Think on that. ;)

 

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1 minute ago, CoreVamore said:

I have the sense you just dont like surprises in battle, I dont like them either, however, they are a facet of any confrontation, they are a facet of life as well. You can't control everything, all the time, chaos/randomness/uncertainty rules all worlds, order is an illusion we make for ourselves.

Surprises are fine, but what is the point of giving someone the brainless use to one. Waiting until you get close to pull out your weapon is a tactic. Let them think for themselves. Purposely putting frustrating mechanics into the game is not a good idea. Surprises take planning, accountability of your opponent. What you are suggesting takes no skill, no thinking, and has no disadvantage. 

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7 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Surprises are fine, but what is the point of giving someone the brainless use to one. Waiting until you get close to pull out your weapon is a tactic. Let them think for themselves. Purposely putting frustrating mechanics into the game is not a good idea.

I dont see how its frustrating at all, its just another unkown that you have to account for, whether or not the opponent has to think about it, or not. All you have to do is assume they MIGHT be high end combat players.

7 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Surprises take planning, accountability of your opponent. What you are suggesting takes no skill, no thinking, and has no disadvantage. 

Sure it has a disadvantage, you might get attacked more often as people think you are a noob, naturally you then blow the attackers away.

 

I'm going to leave this as my last response to your line of thinking as we are in the process of beginning to talk in circles.

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Putting a set in place mechanic is not how you encourage counter-play and self-improvement. If noobs are struggling against higher level players, it is only the fault of themselves. They are the ones who need to get better themselves, not be given an advantage that is simply frustrating to play against.

Also there are non-PvP areas if they can't handle having to actually learn how to PvP well instead of relying on a cheap trick :) 

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I'd just like to add that much like in real life, you can have the most powerful weapon in the world and still be totally defenseless or even get yourself killed if you don't know how to use it properly.

 

Take a magnet gun for example. Fire two 'poles' and they'll stick to whatever solid they land on and will pull together once the opposing pole is fired.

 

Fire one pole at the ground and the other at the enemy, sure it will pull the enemy to the ground, but they can still attack you with their own weapons as long as their limbs and weapons aren't pinned to the ground.

 

Let's try again with a new enemy. Land one on them and another on a car that's all the way down the block. Nothing happens, the two poles are too far apart so they don't interact.

 

You could also fire one pole at the enemy and the other at the big metal beam, sure the metal beam will fly towards them and crush them (just using my imagination, the enemy would most likely go flying in this case since they'd be realistically less heavy) but also not realize that the beam still has a lot of potential energy and is on a collision course with you.

 

Oh, and that structure that beam was supporting, it's crumbling down on top of you now.

 

Of course, realistic physics-based destruction is pretty unrealistic in DU not only for the performance required serverside but also players who build buildings that can't support themselves due to either no support structure or just poor design overall, but I think you get my point.

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4 hours ago, DarkHorizon said:

I'd just like to add that much like in real life, you can have the most powerful weapon in the world and still be totally defenseless or even get yourself killed if you don't know how to use it properly.

 

*** snip ***

I don't disagree with you, however, this is not what the post is about, its where Excavy has steered it.

 

For the sake of the original post, and idea/example, I am assuming that people using the weapons are relatively good at using them, with the game skill levels to match.

 

The idea is to give newbies a **potential** extra psychological buffer to reduce them getting picked on in the early parts of the game when they venture out into PvP areas. (I.e. potential attackers will need to think twice, they will likely attack anyway, but some may not).

 

The idea also has nothing to do with newbies struggling, or otherwise, diverting the key point of my suggestion: which is simply to give newbies a slight breather in their first steps into PvP land. If supposed high level PvP'rs cant handle that then I would suggest that they aren't really high level PvP'rs  ;)

 

And before some accuse me of being a care bare I would suggest you read some of my other comments on the forum, I think you will find I am quite balanced for this type of game :D

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

The idea is to give newbies a **potential** extra psychological buffer to reduce them getting picked on in the early parts of the game when they venture out into PvP areas. (I.e. potential attackers will need to think twice, they will likely attack anyway, but some may not).

 

The idea also has nothing to do with newbies struggling, or otherwise, diverting the key point of my suggestion: which is simply to give newbies a slight breather in their first steps into PvP land.

If its not about noobs struggling, then why do you want to give them and advantage? If they really want to stop PvPing, then they can, ya know, leave the PvP zone? You should have to enter a PvP zone knowing that there is always a risk.

2 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

If supposed high level PvP'rs cant handle that then I would suggest that they aren't really high level PvP'rs  ;)

The kind of players that are going be going after noobs are noobs themselves, or slightly higher level players. I never said I was talking about the best player in the world. I meant a higher level player than a base noob. The "buffer" for noobs is the fact that they are noobs. Nobody cares to kill them except for people close to their level. The higher level players that attack them serve as learning lessons. If nobody ever attacks them in PvP, they are not going to learn. And personally I'd be getting frustrated myself if everyone ran away from me when I tried to fight them because I was a noob.

 

The main point is, its fun for nobody and it doesn't help balance. It also has no player choice behind it, because the game is implementing this "strategy" whether you like it or not. I don't know a single person who would find that engaging.

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5 minutes ago, Excavy said:

The "buffer" for noobs is the fact that they are noobs. Nobody cares to kill them except for people close to their level. The higher level players that attack them serve as learning lessons.

You just contradicted yourself.....

 

Noobs are attacked by all levels of player, period.

 

You keep arguing from extreme points of view , as an example....

7 minutes ago, Excavy said:

If nobody ever attacks them in PvP, they are not going to learn. And personally I'd be getting frustrated myself if everyone ran away from me when I tried to fight them because I was a noob.

Who said people would never attack them? Not me, you make that off base  assumption to bolster your argument. Not to mention that people wont, for the most part, be running away from a noob looking opponent. Making absurd scenarios doesnt help your argument at all.

 

As for nobody finding it potentially engaging to have this "mechanic" well so far there is only one person against it, thats a majority of one so far......

 

 

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5 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

You just contradicted yourself.....

No I didn't, did I not just explain it for last time? Read the beginning please

19 minutes ago, Excavy said:

The kind of players that are going be going after noobs are noobs themselves, or slightly higher level players. I never said I was talking about the best player in the world. I meant a higher level player than a base noob. The "buffer" for noobs is the fact that they are noobs. Nobody cares to kill them except for people close to their level. The higher level players that attack them serve as learning lessons.

 

7 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

As for nobody finding it potentially engaging to have this "mechanic" well so far there is only one person against it, thats a majority of one so far......

Sure dude. I'm completely alone in my opinion and nobody else would be in agreement with me. Its not like only 3 people have been talking, and one didn't even state his opinion, just pointed out something. Making passive aggressive statements doesn't help your argument either. This isn't a popularity contest. I'm just gonna stop talking to you now.  

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11 minutes ago, Excavy said:

Sure dude. I'm completely alone in my opinion and nobody else would be in agreement with me. Its not like only 3 people have been talking, and one didn't even state his opinion, just pointed out something. Making passive aggressive statements doesn't help your argument either. This isn't a popularity contest. I'm just gonna stop talking to you now.  

Not making any form of passive aggressive statements - just calling you out on the polarising absurdity of your arguments, things like the idea of a "popularity contest".... is this again another way of diverting opinions to bolster your side of things?

 

I'll just mark you down as someone who doesn't like the idea, which is fine.

 

See you in game :D

 

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