Jump to content
Lambert

Black Ops and Cloaking technology development

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Miamato said:

Wasn't the AI supposed just to watch over people that are in cryopods? I thought explanation for time needed for 'remembering' skills is not about some researches made by AI but about side effect of being frozen and time needed to recover memories after amnesia. This is said in Lore topic. 

I said "insinuations", not clear as day explanation. They could come later on and say "hey, the AI did scientific advances in those 10K year s you were asleep ,herei s a Tier-2 Atmospheric engine" :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Rule 1 : 

Rule 2 :


So, you just don't like facts? Cool, I guess not everyone in Providence are reasonable folk.

Cheers.

 

Dude.. we're flying spaceships.. at least try and live the future a little.. 

You seem to limit your imagination to what you feel relevant to accept.

 

In the lore of EVE cloaking is explained just fine. In 2017 Earth we know all of these things are possible in theory but generally would require energy in amounts inconceivable in today's tech. And that goes for both EVE and DU.

 

Your 2017 facts may not apply 23K years from now.. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Dude.. we're flying spaceships.. at least try and live the future a little.. 

You seem to limit your imagination to what you feel relevant to accept.

 

In the lore of EVE cloaking is explained just fine. In 2017 Earth we know all of these things are possible in theory but generally would require energy in amounts inconceivable in today's tech. And that goes for both EVE and DU.

 

Your 2017 facts may not apply 23K years from now.. Unless you have evidence to the contrary.

Einstein didn't have his theory of special relativity wasn't accepted cause someone wrote a scii-fi novel on it. His theory had sound math, but no proof - which is also what the Strign Theory is currently, yes, String Theory is on the same shelf as God, Cthulu and Lord Xenu, you can't prove they exist, but you can't also prove they don't exist.

PEGS can not exist. The Laws of Physics are not legisnlation that can be rewritten. Deal with it, EVE's capacitors are just manabars disguised as sci-fi.

Conservation of Energy is not something that can be changed or circumvented, it's not a limit of technology, it's just a fact, it's what gives Black Holes a limited lifespan - unless they devour something - and it's what makes the Sun have an expiration date. EVE's mumbo jumbo explanation for "why your mana bar regenerates" is as contrived as "his power level is over 9000!!1111" - AKA, bogush, bullshit, shenanigans

 

It's not "my" 2017 facts, it's established science, it's not approximation like Gallileo's science was, this is atom-masher pnpoint accuracy calculations. It's not approximation, it's the one thing any model of science agrees on - even the unproven String Theory : you can't take 1 Joule and make it 5 KiloJoules, that's not how the universe works, from its beginning.

And before you hastily google "Bing Bang and Cosmic Inflation", if you mean to tell me PEGs can make energy out of nothing, but in New Eden they fight with Missiles, that's as borderline nonsensical as "why did Neo even throw a punch in Matrix 2 and 3 when he could just make people explode?". EVE is FANTASY, it's magic and vampires and unicorns. It's not Sci-Fi as much Star Wars is not Sci-Fi, it's fantasy, it's about immortal gods who inhabit new bodies all the time. It's literally, Crowfall. Seriously, look at Crowfall, it's EVE without the silly sci-fi skin.

Calling EVE "the future science" is like saying "oh, in the future? I will be able to Polymorph people into sheep and then summon Waterr Elemental".

 

 

Also, some other facts :

1) The current model of Warp, the Alcubierre Drive, demands ridiculous levels of energy to be pulled off. Yes, a ship within an Alcubierre bubble would e, for all intents and purposes invisible, point is, it still takes a LOT of power to maintain the cloaking field and it works BOTH ways, there is no "in-between", you can't see the otuside world, as they can't see you. if EVE's model was to be legit, you should not be able to scan - at all - not just have a penatly on scanning strength.

2) Any form of invisibility would mean death to the ship using it. Why? Simple, the heat you emit, would be bounced back at you - as it can't leave the cloaking field, thus turning the ship into a microwave oven. 

 

And again, you can't just ignore energy and entropy.

3) Warp, as NQ has put it, they want it to be for ships that are so big they can't really afford to move via thrusters - think Titans for example. Warp is not meant for smaller ships in DU.. Here's the source of this (press Control + F then search for Warp for faster results) :
 

 

 

 

 

 Furthermore, if you ignored the rest of my replies, putting an invisibility cloak in DU can't really work, since it will cause a lot of issues on the renderer, like people being invisible on board your ship, not to mention the apparent chance for people to just hack the crap out of the client to just ignore the cloaking "texture" of the particle effect and just see you bright as day, while a model of stealth with the 4-Way signature, negates that, since it's something saved with your construct on the server and the server then does the background checks on your scanning strength and the other guy's signature radius, it's then up to you to  determine if the thing you picked up is a ship or space junk.

An "invisibility" cloak could only work in ONE place, on a player's avatar armor, and that's stretchign it, since optimcal camouflage does not work against thermal sight, it's just camouflage that colors you like the background.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All he is arguing here is thata its WAY better to have a balanced and BETTER mechanic than just the iwin button from eve.

 

And to me it's way better to have a diverse system with different materials to build with and to have different means to detect the ship than just a cloak which is op and just badly implemented

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't agree with that argument as we are not discussing 2017 reality. I mean.. how long are Noveans in stasis on the arkship again and where is the tech that would agree with that being possible? Applying RL logic to a fantasy environment in a game is nonsense.. I mean materializing aluminium blocks from a small box on your wrist is as much pressing the iwin button as anything else, let's just get real here for a moment.

 

In the EVE lore the cloaking mechanic is very much viable and where cloaking and warp exists, Einstein nor Newton apply since there is no time.

 

Everything seen in SF world games is relating to enormous amounts of energy being available and applicable, whether it is warpdrive, cloaking or a molecular materializer (basically a slap on transporter) worn on your wrist. It's been long shown by applying math that most of these would be very much possible _IF_ we would be able to generate the amount of energy needed. trying to apply real world physics or laws is IMO just silly.

 

You only need to go back in time 100 years and you will be locked up as a nutcase if you try and convince people of the technology available today. Who are we to claim that in 23K years we have not been able to break Einstein's law or that some alien entity has provided us with 'magical' technology.. I mean some people believe that today's tech was in fact given to us by aliens in Roswell..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Calling EVE "the future science" is like saying "oh, in the future? I will be able to Polymorph people into sheep and then summon Waterr Elemental".

 

No one is making any such claims.Unless you are seriously trying to make real world arguments against a make up world 23K years from now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

 

No one is making any such claims.Unless you are seriously trying to make real world arguments against a make up world 23K years from now.

It's one and the same. New Eden == Azeroth, made up physics to explain things in the game. Capacitors == Mana pool, PEG == Arcane Power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who knows maybe the AI are the secret and that they have been doing things......naughty things.....and we will at somepoint sumble across an ai colony.

 

And so starteth the machine war.....pve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Lethys said:

Please refrain from breaking the NDA

I'm fairly certain Blaze didn't mention anything that wasn't already part of publicly posted footage and info by NQ's part here. This is just plain bullying

 

EDIT: Guess there was a stealth edit, woop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@blazemonger

 

2017 "reality" will be the same 32000 years from now. Humans then, regardless of their second pair of arms or their 3rd eye, will die from aging. No, EVE's cyborgs are not immortals, they are undying - I know my vast vocabulary may be blowing your mind away, but undying does not equate immortal.

 

Likewise, it's as much a fallacy to think 32000 years will - somehow - lead to the laws of physics being taken down and rewritten in their entirey - it happend once, nowadays they test them fully before commiting them. 320000 years from now, nitrogen will still make the best chemical explosives, thermite will still be feared and most constructs will use wood, concrete and steel to be built - regardless of how those things were procurred or level of quality.

You can't apply "math" to something to prove it, that's the exact opposite of how inductive reasoning and science works. Math proves 1 can equal 2, problem is, uneducated people confuse mathematics with arithmetics - they are not the same - and as such, Physics is not something you can circumvent on its Laws, it's something you accept. EVE is a fantasy MMO, not science fiction. MAgic The Gathering was its inspiration, the CCP guys just went like "hey, let's put a sci-fi skin on it". EVE's lore makes as much sense as WoW's. Warp is not "faster than light", it's just a displacement effect in Time and Space, you don't move, the unvierse ejects you, there is a difference between the two, the difference laying on why Roddenberry named this type of speed "Warp" to begin with, it's a nautical term for moving a ship with an anchored objects to pull towards it. And Warp does need aiming, cause you know, you can't see shit while in it.

 

Also, if I went back 100 years, people didn't have publicly available knowledge, libraries were paid for and tuitions costed you a modern day liver on the black market. Go 50 years back and see how much people had expectations for the future - then things like Moore's Law hit us like a hammer, quantum tunneling was figured out, processros used silicon instead of aluminum cause it caused issues with them silly electrons and people's sci-fi god grounded to reasonable degrees. 100 years back, is when people figured out "hey, those noxious gases in the sewers? Yeah, Hubert, we can fling them to them silly Brits and kill them with a cloud that smells like mustard!". If you went today and told them :

A : " hey, we use the same thing, only in a far far less potential of a chemical to break up riots "
B : " My my Herr Futuremann, do those pesky people still use bandanas or scarves to survive them? "
A : " Yeap ".

Go 100 years back and tell them :

A : " Hey guys, you use bombs I see!"
B : " Yes Mr. Futureguy, we use these handy dandy things we call "grenades" ".
A : " Yeah! We use them in 2018 too!"
B : " Do you still cook them before throwing them?"
A : " Of course! We also use the 1911 handgun you use in most armies around the globe!"
B : " Of course you do, the 1911 is the best darned pistol ever!"

 

100 years back you could also say to people :

A : " Hey, I see you use plasma to save people from blood loss..."
B : " Of course, do you use something else in the future?"
A : " Ah yeah, 19 years from now you'll make the first blood transfusion, same principle, way more accurate that raw plasma though."
B : " So, 100 years from now people still haven't found how to stop things like blood loss miraculously?"
A : " No...".

So, yeah, 100 years in the past I could have gone to Max Planck and told him 

A : " Yo Max, in 40 years from now your peers will start discovering all sorts of particles left right and center in atom mashers!"
B : " So?"
A : " Not impressed?"
B : " Not really no, it's marvelous, just not unbelievable".

 

Similarly, 10K years in DU's future, a human from that era would come back and say :

A : "Hello 2017 earthling, I see you use this crude machine called a "computer" ".
B : "Oh really? Well, I bet you do use a machine like that as well, Let me guess, cerebral implant? You're a cyborg rightr"
A : "Oh shit, the primitive human has psychic powers?! ABORT MISSION ABORT".

or

A : "Hello earthman, do you know how we travel through space??
B : "Ion engines?"
A : "HOLY CRAP THEY ARE ONTO US, ABORT MISSION"

In fact, if I saw a guy who came from the future, I'd shoot them right on the spot to prevent the timeline from collapsing. Who knows what kind of crazy asshole popped out from the future? He might try to take over the world, so I better take my chances with his shenanigans, worst case scenario, I prevented the timeline from changing.
 

See, you would go to show peasants who never heard of electricity in 1918 your i-Phone, like how "alchemists" showed gunpowder tricks to peasnatry and the peasants thorught "uuuuh, magic". Ofc you'd think the Laws of Physics can be changed, I mean, I highly doubt you understand why it's called "Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation" and not " Cool Newt's guide on how apples fall from trees" and why "Principia Mathematica" is not called "Cool Story Bro, Read It".

No amount of scientific progress will ever make things any different in the future, we're already reaching a singularity of science - we already do, just look up Biotechnology - we will break down the human body into atoms and particles and rearrange it in 1000 ways of variation to eliminate diseases, one thing we will not beat, is the laws of the universe, despite of achieving Warp Speed or not.

And one of those Laws prevents PEGs from ever existing. Argue all you want, you're the guy who wanted to name DU conventions DUCON after all:
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, wizardoftrash said:

I'm fairly certain Blaze didn't mention anything that wasn't already part of publicly posted footage and info by NQ's part here. This is just plain bullying

Nope he changed it. No bullying there

 

But thanks for just accusing me without knowing thethe facts

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be fair if you told a guy in the late 1800s that times gets slower at very fast speeds and a particle could have multiple states he would look at you in a not very pleasing way. Its not about physics changing, its about discovering new elements of it. I AM tired of all those "sci fi" works that should be classified as space fantasy or people who think SF = fantasy. 

 

There should be diffrent types of stealth

-Gravitic: works via gravitational lensing, allowing youself to be concealed from EM scans. However, it has a high energy draw and is very easy to detect via gravitational scand.

 

-Metamaterials: works by using materials that have a negative refrection.  It has little power draw and weight but are fragile and only covers a small wavelength range. 

 

Both would require some sort of heat containment, probably by heat sinks though more exotic methods like funneling it through a black hole (we don't know if that would break thermodynamics or not) could be possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, 0something0 said:

To be fair if you told a guy in the late 1800s that times gets slower at very fast speeds and a particle could have multiple states he would look at you in a not very pleasing way. Its not about physics changing, its about discovering new elements of it. I AM tired of all those "sci fi" works that should be classified as space fantasy or people who think SF = fantasy. 

 

There should be diffrent types of stealth

-Gravitic: works via gravitational lensing, allowing youself to be concealed from EM scans. However, it has a high energy draw and is very easy to detect via gravitational scand.

 

-Metamaterials: works by using materials that have a negative refrection.  It has little power draw and weight but are fragile and only covers a small wavelength range. 

 

Both would require some sort of heat containment, probably by heat sinks though more exotic methods like funneling it through a black hole (we don't know if that would break thermodynamics or not) could be possible.

1) Go tell a 1800s person "we still use gunpowder weapons in 200 years". They will surely understand that. Go to a Roman legionnaire and tel lthem "hey, we use your helmet design in the 21st century", they will understand it. Do not apply your average knowledge to the average knoweldge of the past, that's not how this comparison of time periods works. If a 121st century person came back and told you "the berronic tertiaration of the Lychtmann field makes time travel possible" you would not look them oddly, you would ask "okay, first, what's a berronic field". Your current day encyclopedic knowledge topples the average knoweldge of 1800s, but in 1800s, people died from fever and would drink cow piss to cure arthritis. Likewise, if you went to an 1800s SCIENTIST and told them

 

A : "hey, so, there is this thing some ancient greek wrote about small tiny things that compose everything"

B : "Of course, the Atom Theory, nice thing of marvelous insight, yet unproven though."
A : "Well, in the 20th century everyone found out pretty much a lot about them".
B : "Makes sense".

Also, go to a farmer TODAY and tell them to explain to you how and when to plow the fields. Oh wait, that means you are living in the past, before the advent of agriculture? You don't know how to do that, right? Oh, you gonna look up some online article about it? My my, it's like you don't live in the 1800s when the average populace didn't have access to the internet and its vast providence of knowledge. 

Again, do not apply misconceptions anf comparing oranges to potatos.

2) That was my issue as well, people thinking Sci-Fi meaning "comicbook science". "Mr. Stark, congratulations, you invented a new Element, which means you have exceeded an atomic number of 130, which means you will die of radiation burns from the inside, instead of radiation poisoning".

3) You need the mass of the sun (or equivalent energy levels) to bend light and still falls into the "i-win button" category. While there are ceramics that can be trully transparent and can "bend" light, they do not really benefit the user greatly, since they bend light both ways, meaning the person isnide said material hull would be boiling alive after all the heat is not released throug radiation  Your suggestion does fall on the same category as EVE's : "Possible,yet not feasible".

What does "possible yet not feasible" means? That time travel IS possible, given Eisntein's equations, however, you'd need the energy of half a galaxy to do so. Possible, yes, feasible? Nope.

The overchewed excuse of "you can be seen in space easily due to 0heat" does not work well when you know what the Inverse Square Law is. 

LADAR picking up heat signatures, does not work 100% and at any range. A 25 meters heat signature would be detected within a certain range. Heat containment would only reduce the range the enemy can detect you in, not magical contain the heat. Sure, a net-worked link of arrays could easily pick you off at longer ranges, but that's where the containment comes in to begin with or even better, flying with engines off, like a submarine running battery isntead of enegine.

Stealth should be something challenging, not easily available to "XxX_LeafyFan07_XxX" .

Having a ship that costs in materials to build and craftmanship to handle the 4-way signature radius on it (since RADAR stealth needs certain profiles to be effective, materials or not), means Stealth is used by actually skilled players, not Little Timmy to grief people with impunity cause "rouge iz bezt".

It would be a real shame if NQ didn't utilise the aerodynamic profile of a ship and their magnetometry they showecased on GDC for a 4-way ship detection. Those two thigns alone require skill from players, one is in making a ship able to resist detection and one is in the skill of the player who "reads" the scans,. as JC said in the GDC video "an experienced player would be able to tell what the readouts are on the scan for minerals".

Not to mention the job opportunities for pilots who patrol asteroid belts to check if someone is there hidden in a stealth ship, spying on the nearby space station.

Cheers.

 

P.S. : In other games, the question of "why do pirates always attack in asteroid belts" is being brought up.

My stealth model - the realistic model - explains that now, doesn't it? Metallic ship => engines off => hidden in plain sight when the miner scans the area for minerals".

It's also why the Expanse is such a good show :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is that our understanding of the laws of physics expands(hopefully ) over time and things previously thought impossible become possible. 

 

On the ceramics metamaterial thing, it should be possible to have dedicated radiators that pops out when stealth is not in use but tucked away when needed.  Mind you, while cold jet or ion engines/life support reaches 100s of kelvins, fission and chemical engines reach 1000s of K and fusion/antimatter reaches millions. Have you seen the huge radiators on thise designs?

 

Nevertheless, it should be possible to have a limited amount of stealth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...