Space Claims

[DrParadox]

So far They do not know what to do when it comes to Claiming space but i was thinking what if they did it the Same way they do on the ground but in like a Ball State like this.  

 

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/warehouse/getpubliccontent?contentId=7bdf1f6b-50fb-48b3-8d25-0e837e8c5c39

 

This would make it Possible like 10-100 Km in Radius.

 

Plus it would like you build Big Ships/ Space stations and if they do not have a Way to claim space yet how about just making the Claim unit Bigger and make Float in Space instead of have Stands to hold it up or just make a Space station First then place the Claim unit inside of it.

 

Just a Idea i just had I hope you guys/Gals Like it.

[mrjacobean]

I think the current plan (last I heard) was that someone had to own a certain amount of the available TUs on the planet to have 'control' of the space around it (don't know how far that extends). This is also the same with renaming planets.

[Anaximander]

There's no actual point to claim space.

There's no such thing as "build a station". There's "build a construct".

You want to build a station? Build a giant Core Unit, fly it to the point you want, and start deploying shapes on it. Ta-da. No Space Claim needed.

Also, 100km radius claim ? A planet in DU is 100km in radius, lol.

 

 

I think the current plan (last I heard) was that someone had to own a certain amount of the available TUs on the planet to have 'control' of the space around it (don't know how far that extends). This is also the same with renaming planets.

No, there's no such thing as plaent claim yet. They said they plan for "anchoring" later on (essentialyl turning a giant construct into a claim of its own) but not in the official release.

[Shynras]

Actually they already said that "space bubbles" may come after release, so it's nothing new. To create a stargate, space stations and stuff in space this feature will be probably a must one day, to give the owners some kind of limited protection.

[Anaximander]

Actually they already said that "space bubbles" may come after release, so it's nothing new. To create a stargate, space stations and stuff in space this feature will be probably a must one day, to give the owners some kind of limited protection.

Ah, no, that's what's called "broken gameplay". 

 

"Oh, I want to deploy a forward base on my opponent's system, let me be invulnerable while I deploy my death star. Mhmmm, so blanced".

 

What they spoken of is Anchoring (it's from EVE) where you can deploy something and then make it permanent. In DU terms, it's more orl ess making a space claim, but you first have to BUILD it. And anchoring (the act of converting something temporary to premanent) is taking time, like 24 hours, so, don't actually think of anchoring a ship, you'll lose it before it finishes anchoring and once Anchorign is engaged you cannnot disengage it. Also, disengaging anchoring takes 24 hours as well.

 

This is what NQ meant about "Space Claims". You build a station, then you anchor it. Although, the benefits to that, are questionable. Like, if bases on the ground have automated defenses (a possibility at this point), will Anchored constructs have the same treatment? 

 

Also, building a station may take hours, or days and that's before even anchoring it. 

 

It's a balanced system this way. It means fights can be organised around those timers.

 

And thus it means Stargates CAN have "turrets" (eh, more like Death Boxes) that shoot on "Hostiles" on sight. But NQ said it will come "later".  It means planets CAN have orbital defenses. How costly that may be, it's up for debate.

 

 

 

And no, anchored constructs having automated guns and ships haveing automated guns, is not the same. Turrets cannot move while shooting, a frigate going 5000 m/s havign automated turrets is cheat though.

[mrjacobean]

 It means planets CAN have orbital defenses. How costly that may be, it's up for debate.

I wonder what the maximum possible effective range on a weapon is. I bet someone will attempt to create a security net around an entire planetoid (probably a moon) to prevent anyone else from getting through (and they will most likely learn that it does not work).

[Anaximander]

I wonder what the maximum possible effective range on a weapon is. I bet someone will attempt to create a security net around an entire planetoid (probably a moon) to prevent anyone else from getting through (and they will most likely learn that it does not work).

Overlaping Cones of Fire are not a new concept.

 

Thing is, turrets in EVE for example. have a very limited range compared to the ranges a player can shoot from. Even more limtied is their tracking ability. Not to mention, those turrets do not coordinate. They are not a hive mind, they go for anything the prime as a target. If Lua scripts can dictate what they shoot at as a priority is, sure, I guess a sort of coordination can happen, but those thins are not meant for small groups.

 

They need fuel and logistical support. Those guns' ammo won't replenish itself. Nor will it repair magically.

[Shynras]

A space bubble is not a safezone nor invulnerability, it's a limited protection with the goal to delay your opponent to give you the time to react, and it works like a TCU, the only difference is that you can place it in a fixed position in space. I'm pretty sure they mentioned that, and it's definitely balanced. It's actually the only way people will be able to build stuff in space without being griefed while offline. 

[Anaximander]

A space bubble is not a safezone nor invulnerability, it's a limited protection with the goal to delay your opponent to give you the time to react, and it works like a TCU, the only difference is that you can place it in a fixed position in space. I'm pretty sure they mentioned that, and it's definitely balanced. It's actually the only way people will be able to build stuff in space without being griefed while offline. 

To bad, your example is too ridiculous.

 

If you want to place a tower full of guns on my front yard you'll have to protect it. No invulnerability for you or anyone. 

 

EVE proved that - the only other game with a global single-shard server. And NQ knows that already to begin with.

 

Also, YOU WON'T set up territory claim in space alone. It's an organisation goal to have a TCU to begin with. If an organisation tries to deploy a starbase on a location you'll have peopel to defend it.

 

Sorry, no Singleplayer snowflake mechanics, the Devs know that. hey won't give special snowflake invulunerability while building something in a war-zone. Deal with it.

 

Anchoring is balanced. It provides the enemy with time to react and your people with a time-window of defending the construct. It's why Citadels in a grey-zones in EVE are deployed during weekends.

 

So pleas,e stop argueing about unreasonable scenarios like "one brave solo nugget,m building a Death Star sized station on his own". IT won't happen, mainly, cause it's not a singleplayer game.

[0something0]

Didn't the devs already say they are already going to add a shield-thingy? 

 

Also, your org may have 300 million people in it, but they may be all from the Magical Stupid-Units-Using-Land Ruled By An Orange who are within 4 hours in terms of timezone of each other. Timezone is an issue...

[mrjacobean]

Also, your org may have 300 million people in it, but they may be all from the Magical Stupid-Units-Using-Land Ruled By An Orange who are within 4 hours in terms of timezone of each other. Timezone is an issue...

Which is why an org made of people from across the globe will be easier to defend than one from one county only.

[0something0]

I am concerned about startup orgs who doesn't have the manpower to properly protect their base. I mean, fairly quickly, the massive orgs will take over the whole server. 

[FD3242]

accidental post

[Lethys]

I am concerned about startup orgs who doesn't have the manpower to properly protect their base. I mean, fairly quickly, the massive orgs will take over the whole server.

And how would an org do that? Alioth alone has more than 100.000 km^2. The biggest alliance in eve has like 15k characters (NOT players). But let's assume there's an org with 50k people. And we're not talking about maintaining that org here, logistics, keeping players happy and so on. Those 50k won't be online at the same time. My experience from eve is: about 10% are online on a daily basis and due to timezones. Gl defending that area with 5000 people.

Oh and people will come together to kill that megacorp if they don't behave.

If everything goes wrong, you can still leave the planet and travel to some far away planet

[Anaximander]

I am concerned about startup orgs who doesn't have the manpower to properly protect their base. I mean, fairly quickly, the massive orgs will take over the whole server. 

Guess why an Empire is not an Empire if it's a village.

[Shynras]

To bad, your example is too ridiculous.

 

If you want to place a tower full of guns on my front yard you'll have to protect it. No invulnerability for you or anyone. 

 

EVE proved that - the only other game with a global single-shard server. And NQ knows that already to begin with.

 

Also, YOU WON'T set up territory claim in space alone. It's an organisation goal to have a TCU to begin with. If an organisation tries to deploy a starbase on a location you'll have peopel to defend it.

 

Sorry, no Singleplayer snowflake mechanics, the Devs know that. hey won't give special snowflake invulunerability while building something in a war-zone. Deal with it.

 

Anchoring is balanced. It provides the enemy with time to react and your people with a time-window of defending the construct. It's why Citadels in a grey-zones in EVE are deployed during weekends.

 

So pleas,e stop argueing about unreasonable scenarios like "one brave solo nugget,m building a Death Star sized station on his own". IT won't happen, mainly, cause it's not a singleplayer game.

-It's not invulnerability, it's a TCU in space, you didn't read the message you quoted.

-Turrets need players to work and have a limited range (you can't shoot from space to a planet surface), the EVE comparison doesn't apply.

-There's no limitation that prevents you to build a TCU by yourself, it's a sandbox, the only limit is the effort you put in it. 

-Again, it's not invulnerability. You can build a TCU on the planet surface in a war zone (the safezone has only a 20 km range ), and you do the same in space. 

-Anchoring, if you mean with that a way to delay and give the defender time to react, it's the same of a TCU. So you didn't get what a TCU is in the first place.

 

Btw huge constructs like a deathstar are never going to be meta

[Anaximander]

-It's not invulnerability, it's a TCU in space, you didn't read the message you quoted.

-Turrets need players to work and have a limited range (you can't shoot from space to a planet surface), the EVE comparison doesn't apply.

-There's no limitation that prevents you to build a TCU by yourself, it's a sandbox, the only limit is the effort you put in it. 

-Again, it's not invulnerability. You can build a TCU on the planet surface in a war zone (the safezone has only a 20 km range ), and you do the same in space. 

-Anchoring, if you mean with that a way to delay and give the defender time to react, it's the same of a TCU. So you didn't get what a TCU is in the first place.

 

Btw huge constructs like a deathstar are never going to be meta

Are you actively coming up with less intelligent arguements? Do you really think they will introduce such a broken mechanism like a TCU in spoace? Anchoring scales up with a construct, TCU are fixed Hexagons that claim a hexagon on the planet  I explained to you how Anchoring works. You clearly don't understand it.

 

You don't know what Anchroing is, but NQ and JC have said they plan on it later on, so don't worry, they know, cause they have been inspried by EVE

 

What you clearly can't understand, is that nobody will give you or anyone, a free pass for building in space.  You build a staion, you move it where you want, then anchor it. Tha'ts the only real way of claiming space. I n EVE merrcenraries are hired to carry out operations like "destroy an alliance's Starbase before it's deployed". And if the allinace deploying the starbase is not tere to proect it, a lot of money go down the drain.

 

If Anchoring is going to work by turning a construct immobile and turning it into a "star-base" instead of a planetary base, cool, it means the starvbase can have automated defenses - like starbases in EVE, which also need anchoring ,what'd you know, so many similairies, it's like NQ sees what's working in EVE that they can use and what's not doing so much, right? And yes, they have said they plan on having planetary bases have autoamtetion, so yu nca see the design choice. Test ground base THEN go to star base, by Anchoring constructs. 

 

Also, guess what, in EVE you can easily reach 150km range on a weapon, but guess also what, it's ma athematical model. the actual effective range is really 150% of your weapon's falloff range, so that 150km range weapon can actually hit with accuracy (but a loto f player skill) at 225km range.

 

Now guesws why in EVE you can't hit planets. It's because the game is coded that way.

 

But guess what, in DU you can, 5 km atmosphere is nothing for a railgun. So yeah, you won't be given the chance to deploy automated murdermachines with invulnerability of any kind as they are deployed. You'll need a siege fleet for that, to protect them 

 

To deploy ANY space fortress, you'll need a space army. It's what makes large scale battles in EVE so worth it, cause people try to build a sandcastle, and someone - always - wants to destroy that castle before it turns to rock. Anchoring is truth, Anchoring is life.

[Shynras]

Are you actively coming up with less intelligent arguements? Rude

Do you really think they will introduce such a broken mechanism like a TCU in spoace? Why is that broken?

Anchoring scales up with a construct, TCU are fixed Hexagons that claim a hexagon on the planet  I explained to you how Anchoring works. Doesn't matter shape or size, it's a protection with the objective to give the defender time to react.

You clearly don't understand it. Rude!

 

You don't know what Anchroing is (Rude!!), but NQ and JC have said they plan on it later on (where?), so don't worry, they know, cause they have been inspried by EVE

 

What you clearly can't understand (Rude!!!), is that nobody will give you or anyone, a free pass for building in space. (I didn't ask for that) You build a station, you move it where you want, then anchor it. Tha'ts the only real way of claiming space. (Why can't be the other way?)  I n EVE merrcenraries are hired to carry out operations like "destroy an alliance's Starbase before it's deployed". And if the allinace deploying the starbase is not tere to proect it, a lot of money go down the drain. Just hire them to destroy it while it's being built

 

If Anchoring is going to work by turning a construct immobile and turning it into a "star-base" instead of a planetary base, cool, it means the starvbase can have automated defenses (hopefully not) - like starbases in EVE, which also need anchoring ,what'd you know, so many similairies, it's like NQ sees what's working in EVE that they can use and what's not doing so much, right? And yes, they have said they plan on having planetary bases have autoamtetion (I don't think so), so yu nca see the design choice. Test ground base THEN go to star base, by Anchoring constructs. 

 

Also, guess what, in EVE you can easily reach 150km range on a weapon, but guess also what, it's ma athematical model. the actual effective range is really 150% of your weapon's falloff range, so that 150km range weapon can actually hit with accuracy (but a loto f player skill) at 225km range.

 

Now guesws why in EVE you can't hit planets. It's because the game is coded that way.

 

But guess what, in DU you can, 5 km atmosphere is nothing for a railgun (the range in DU depends on its loading tech of entities, that is completely different from EVE). So yeah, you won't be given the chance to deploy automated murdermachines with invulnerability of any kind (Again, where did I mention invulnerability?) as they are deployed. You'll need a siege fleet for that, to protect them 

 

To deploy ANY space fortress, you'll need a space army. ("to build a space fortress you need a space army", why is my statement incorrect?) It's what makes large scale battles in EVE so worth it, cause people try to build a sandcastle, and someone - always - wants to destroy that castle before it turns to rock. Anchoring is truth, Anchoring is life.

 

 

I've no time for a long answer, btw I don't think you understood what I'm trying to say.

[Anaximander]

I've no time for a long answer, btw I don't think you understood what I'm trying to say.

You clearly don't have time to look up facts either. The loadng tech is irreleveant.  You can shoot at a thing you see if it's withinm your range. Otherwise the game won't have long, medium or short range weapons (as JC said, it will ony; have sohrt range weapons.

 

The game's combat system only cares for if you can see something. If you can see it and it's within effective range, you can shoot it. It's that simple.

[Shynras]

You clearly don't have time to look up facts either. The loadng tech is irreleveant.  You can shoot at a thing you see if it's withinm your range. Otherwise the game won't have long, medium or short range weapons (as JC said, it will ony; have sohrt range weapons.

 

The game's combat system only cares for if you can see something. If you can see it and it's within effective range, you can shoot it. It's that simple.

Max Combat Range (MCR) < Max Loading Range (MLR) < Max Render Range (MRR)

 

It's kinda hard to explain, expecially since my english is not that "specialized", but I'll try.

 

A construct is an entity that stores different kind of informations: textures, elements (with their functions), voxel geometry. Since every construct is not premade (you don't have data about it in the original game file), every time you encounter a new construct the servers have to send you all the data about it. (In Eve is different, every ship is a single entity and is in the original game file, the only thing that the servers have to send you is the data regarding fitting and player)

 

What are the limits?

Your computer can manage a limited amount of informations (to avoid client lag)

The servers can send a limited amount of informations ( to avoid server lag)

 

We know that Du has a huge MRR, thanks to the LOD system, that change textures resolution depending on rendering distance. What does that mean?

-You load lighter textures in your VRAM

-A server send you less information about a costruct look (doesn't send yuo the entire textures, but positions and IDs) far away from you (unless you were close to that construct until recently)

Why there's need for a LOD system? We need that because if you had to load high res textures from 100 constructs around you, your PC would blow up. 

 

Now, why do you think this should be different for voxels, elements and so on? If you played minecraft, or any other voxel game, you'd notice that there's a limit at which voxels get rendered. The reason is that they consume RAM (and CPU i guess). If you had 100 constructs around you, and your pc would have to load every single voxel and element (stuff moving, sending informations, interacting one with each other, shooting and so on) they're made of, it would blew up. So the only way it can work, unless JC knows black magic, is that voxels are not loaded (or actually merged into bigger voxels similarly to how the LOD system works for textures) after a certain Max Loading Range (MLR), even if the textures are still rendered! MRR>MLR. This also means that elements don't get loaded after a certain range MLR, that is way lower than MRR. 

Ofc the servers has to send less informations, since when a construct distance from you is > MLR, it doesn't have to send you any information about elements doing stuff, but just simple low res textures. 

 

Lastly: Max Combat Range < Max Render Range clearly to avoid people from just being rendered "appearing from nowhere" and start shooting you immediately.

Max Combat Range < Max Loading Range, well if you don't load elements you can't shoot anyway. Why then can't be MCR = MLR ? Because you would load and unload elements constantly if you fight around that MLR level. How much lower? Dunno, depends on how the combat will work. 

[0something0]

Aren't the turrets Lock-On? So you actually don't need to see a detailed version of a ship to shoot at it. So, first engagements can begin at somewhere between Max Loading and Max Render. The game could just load the existence of the constructs(the cores) but not the voxels. Then, the effective range of weapons come in. It would also be possible I imagine to selectively load voxels around a core(construct). 

[Anaximander]

Aren't the turrets Lock-On? So you actually don't need to see a detailed version of a ship to shoot at it. So, first engagements can begin at somewhere between Max Loading and Max Render. The game could just load the existence of the constructs(the cores) but not the voxels. Then, the effective range of weapons come in. It would also be possible I imagine to selectively load voxels around a core(construct). 

Yes, you don't need to see a ship in detail, but the further it is from you, the less the chances of hitting it are.

 

So, seeing something and being able to hit it, are two diffenret things. But given a space station is ANCHORED in space, it can't move, so "sieging" it is easy, but since damage drops given distance, you will lose damage output to hit it from range that you are safe from being retaliated.

 

 

Also, lock-on and homing-in are not the same. Unless you are shooting a missile at those ranges - and a missile that can REACH that distance you target at, as missiles run out of fuel eventually - you won'\t always hit on the spot you want. NQ could do that by spawning "damage bubbles" within a gunner's crosshair, a mix between Hit-scan and tab-targeting.

[Shynras]

Aren't the turrets Lock-On? So you actually don't need to see a detailed version of a ship to shoot at it. So, first engagements can begin at somewhere between Max Loading and Max Render. The game could just load the existence of the constructs(the cores) but not the voxels. Then, the effective range of weapons come in. It would also be possible I imagine to selectively load voxels around a core(construct). 

 

Ye but it's not that a construct just has a HP bar. They said their intention is to have voxel damage, you lock on, shoot, a certain point gets decided, an aoe from that point damages and destroys what's in it. So when you deal damage you actually need voxels and elements loaded. I'm not saying that the max range will be 500 meters, i don't know, depends on how well they can make the game run, but even there, wouldn't be bad. You can't compare it with eve because ships are way smaller in DU: a shuttle in EVE (the smallest and cheapest ship) is 33 meters that in Du means a 132 voxels long ship, will require tens of hours to design and build and a small group to pilot. In Du you'll probably never see a ship longer than 1 km, end even if you'll one day, it's not going to be piloted by a single player, like EVE. 

 

Ships are going to be way smaller, since multicrew is required to drive them and they're way more expensive and time consuming to build (and kinda unnecessary, since your ship size is enough when you have all the elements you need, and those are not that big). So I do expect the max combat range to be around 1 km or so. 

[0something0]

Ye but it's not that a construct just has a HP bar. They said their intention is to have voxel damage, you lock on, shoot, a certain point gets decided, an aoe from that point damages and destroys what's in it. So when you deal damage you actually need voxels and elements loaded. I'm not saying that the max range will be 500 meters, i don't know, depends on how well they can make the game run, but even there, wouldn't be bad. You can't compare it with eve because ships are way smaller in DU: a shuttle in EVE (the smallest and cheapest ship) is 33 meters that in Du means a 132 voxels long ship, will require tens of hours to design and build and a small group to pilot. In Du you'll probably never see a ship longer than 1 km, end even if you'll one day, it's not going to be piloted by a single player, like EVE. 

 

Ships are going to be way smaller, since multicrew is required to drive them and they're way more expensive and time consuming to build (and kinda unnecessary, since your ship size is enough when you have all the elements you need, and those are not that big). So I do expect the max combat range to be around 1 km or so. 

Well, I was thinking that it just loads that particular ship, but not the other unnecessary voxels.