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Anaximander

Night-Vision / Thermal Sights / Thermal Scanning

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Should the Devs implement an optic mechanics in the game, like Thermal Sights for aiming at targets better at night? That can be emulated by having an avatar's hit chance be at 100% at daytime, but dropping dramatically when there's absence of light arond them, thus requiring Thermal Sights to get 100% of ther hit chance on the enemy. A Night-Vision scope or visor could do the trick, but it would be a "cheaper" version of the Thermal Sights, that would provide 50% of the hit chance the avatar has during night-time.

Thermal Scanning, is a different yet adjacent matter. Being able to scan a ship to see how many people are on-board it for example. You wouldn't want that Space-Trucker to smuggle some robbers into your space station now, would you? Perhaps there could be a piece of expensive armor that could counter that, but the subject goes beyond player interaction, like mining and prospecting the ground below to see if there's lava where you're going to dig (something JC has stated many times, is that there's no magical limit on mining, but actual magma that will certainly kill you).



Please, feel free to tell me how wrong I am :|

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I'm not really fond of the idea of your chances being reduced by a certain percent, I'm not even sure why I'm not - But I can at least offer an alternative thought; I could see a limitation in what areas you can lock on to as a nice way of doing it. So with 100% visibility you can target any visible tech (motors, guns, shield generators etc) but in darkness/without the proper tech you may be limited to a few of them, or possibly locking on to one at random.

 

It may be too early to talk about this since we haven't seen the actual combat system yet, perhaps none of this would contribute anything at all!

 

 

Slightly off topic, but enough on topic to mention:

I've actually thought about how you could essentially make an underground base or mining shaft very annoying to navigate for outsiders if you simply don't provide a light source, windows etc, so they have to run around in the dark. If not night vision perhaps we'll get a torch at least? I'd prefer night vision of course!

 

Also the above would only be solved with night vision, so even if it's a "cheaper tech" it's more versitile in this way, where thermal vision would only help if there are actual players inside that you can sort of navigate by. I could see a potential engineering development go from flashlight > night vision > thermal vision > other cool visor specs, that'd be pretty cool.

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I'm not really fond of the idea of your chances being reduced by a certain percent, I'm not even sure why I'm not - But I can at least offer an alternative thought; I could see a limitation in what areas you can lock on to as a nice way of doing it. So with 100% visibility you can target any visible tech (motors, guns, shield generators etc) but in darkness/without the proper tech you may be limited to a few of them, or possibly locking on to one at random.

 

It may be too early to talk about this since we haven't seen the actual combat system yet, perhaps none of this would contribute anything at all!

 

 

Slightly off topic, but enough on topic to mention:

I've actually thought about how you could essentially make an underground base or mining shaft very annoying to navigate for outsiders if you simply don't provide a light source, windows etc, so they have to run around in the dark. If not night vision perhaps we'll get a torch at least? I'd prefer night vision of course!

 

Also the above would only be solved with night vision, so even if it's a "cheaper tech" it's more versitile in this way, where thermal vision would only help if there are actual players inside that you can sort of navigate by. I could see a potential engineering development go from flashlight > night vision > thermal vision > other cool visor specs, that'd be pretty cool.

The point is, the Devs have a flash light on the helmet of the suit, even the starting one.

 

The problem with that, is that flashlights make you visible and people who want to remain hidden should have the option to, epsecially at night.

 

You can make an underground bunker have no light sources of its own, it would only add immersion if people coming in had to use night-vision goggles or thermal scopes to be able to see and fight.

 

The visibility thing can be easily implemented as a hit chance reduction, The devs can tie how much hit chance you got on a target, depending on how much exposed in light they are. A night-vision scope, would simply "illuminate" the target, therefore giving you hit chance bonuses, without exposing your presence by lighting a flashlight, or a headlamp.

 

Night-vision scopes have a probelm though, they can't see through walls or smoke. A smoke grenade, can be a temporary visual Element, that blocks you from seeing behind it, therefore needing Thermal Sights, which are the ultimate version of the optics and cost more of course.

 

 

 

 

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I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm all for this - Just not a flat percent reduction. It could even have no impact at all on accuracy, and I'd still be all for it!

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I think you may have misunderstood me, I'm all for this - Just not a flat percent reduction. It could even have no impact at all on accuracy, and I'd still be all for it!

Oh, yeah, some other fella got confused as well on this. I'm not talking flat percentage loss.

 

Think of it like this.

 

A person is 100% illuminated. When you aim at them, you get 100% of your hit chance (weapon stats, player attributes, player skills, etcetera).

 

If they are 50% illuminated, you get 50% of your hit chance.

 

If the enemy is 1% illuminated, you get 1% of your hit chance, which I guess it makes some sense in the context of the game realistically.

 

This is where the Night-Vision comes into place, you illuminate them with an infrared flashlight (limited in range), which can give you the bonus of illuminating the target, A night-vision set of goggles, has the added benefit of not exposing you to the enemy, unless they wear Night-Vision goggles as well, in which case, you will have a good ol' gunfight but in the dark.Unless they turn their flashlight at you, in which case, you get blinded, so there is a counter to this mechanic and tactical thinking involved.

 

The Thermal Sights, are in essence the upgraded version of the Night-Vision, but they have power cost and some people may not be using them, since they want to reserve power for their shields or weaponry.

 

 

Not to mention such a thing would create the need for searchlights around a base that lock on people not authorised to be in the vicinity and it would create some possible VENTI-black stealthsuits that absorb light, so even if you were to look at them with a night-vision scope, they would be still not illuminated in the dark and requiring Thermal Sights to be used to detect infiltrators wearing such stealthsuits.

 

 

AKA, Emergent Gameplay :P

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Oh, yeah, some other fella got confused as well on this. I'm not talking flat percentage loss.

 

Think of it like this.

 

A person is 100% illuminated. When you aim at them, you get 100% of your hit chance (weapon stats, player attributes, player skills, etcetera).

 

If they are 50% illuminated, you get 50% of your hit chance.

 

If the enemy is 1% illuminated, you get 1% of your hit chance, which I guess it makes some sense in the context of the game realistically.

 

This is where the Night-Vision comes into place, you illuminate them with an infrared flashlight (limited in range), which can give you the bonus of illuminating the target, A night-vision set of goggles, has the added benefit of not exposing you to the enemy, unless they wear Night-Vision goggles as well, in which case, you will have a good ol' gunfight but in the dark.Unless they turn their flashlight at you, in which case, you get blinded, so there is a counter to this mechanic and tactical thinking involved.

 

The Thermal Sights, are in essence the upgraded version of the Night-Vision, but they have power cost and some people may not be using them, since they want to reserve power for their shields or weaponry.

 

 

Not to mention such a thing would create the need for searchlights around a base that lock on people not authorised to be in the vicinity and it would create some possible VENTI-black stealthsuits that absorb light, so even if you were to look at them with a night-vision scope, they would be still not illuminated in the dark and requiring Thermal Sights to be used to detect infiltrators wearing such stealthsuits.

 

 

AKA, Emergent Gameplay :P

I would say that instead of chance to hit changing, change the range at which you can target them (i.e. they don't show up on when searching for targets, similar to if you use silent running in elite: dangerous). This would mean that in pitch black, you have no clue they are there instead of knowing they are there but being unable to hit them.

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I would say that instead of chance to hit changing, change the range at which you can target them (i.e. they don't show up on when searching for targets, similar to if you use silent running in elite: dangerous). This would mean that in pitch black, you have no clue they are there instead of knowing they are there but being unable to hit them.

That's a very good thought and the fact that weapons are geared, given their class, on short, medium and long range coincides as well.

 

So yeah, the less illuminated the target is, the closer you need to get to them, given you can tell where they are to begin with, as names will probably be tied to a "scan" system, similar to how the Elements are displayed in building mode with a tab popping on them.

 

Invisibility cloaks would also pretty much work on the same principle for normal lighting, as stealthsuits work for nightivision, you simply need to get closer to the enemy, again, given you managed to tell where they are.

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That's a very good thought and the fact that weapons are geared, given their class, on short, medium and long range coincides as well.

So yeah, the less illuminated the target is, the closer you need to get to them, given you can tell where they are to begin with, as names will probably be tied to a "scan" system, similar to how the Elements are displayed in building mode with a tab popping on them.

Invisibility cloaks would also pretty much work on the same principle for normal lighting, as stealthsuits work for nightivision, you simply need to get closer to the enemy, again, given you managed to tell where they are.

Edit...

If you use Stealth "tech" you stay in Stealth when using thermal scanning or nigthvision only. But if you use radar type Scanning in stealth you will illuminate like a lighthouse.

 

This can create interesting gamepaly if deployed well.

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If you use Stealth "tech" you stay in Stealth when using thermal scanning or nigthvision only. But radar type Scanning will illuminate you like a lighthouse.

 

This can create interesting gamepaly if deployed well.

Well, each steath suit has its pros and cons.

 

Ventiblack armor, absorbs almost all spectrum of light, we are talking perfect black, it doesn't even gleam a bit. That makes it absorb the same near-infrared spectrum the Night-Vision goggles emit to illuminate people. The human eye can't see infrared, but the NV goggles can and with the Ventiblack armor absorbing said Near Infrared spectrum of light the goggles illuminate with, make the goggles pretty much useless. But the Ventiblack armor makes you stand out from your surrounding temperature in a Thermal Scope, hence Ventiblack is usless against Thermal scope.

 

A "cloaking" suit, would conceal your thermal signature, as the cloak would contain it inside, but it would be or a limited time only, as the heated trapped inside would start causing damage to you as it would boil you alive. So, cloaking is a very double edged sword.

 

The transparency cloak, similar to the Predator's cloak, makes you appear transparent, like a form of water, but it doesn't seal heat in it, it's what people call "active camouflage", or chameleon cloak. It's essentially Ventiblack for daytime, but it can be used in close quarters to ellude your enemies.

 

 

As for radar, not really. The Ventiblack armor would absorb the pulse and would not "bounce" back a signal. The one operating the radar would not see anything popping up.

 

But a motion sensor... now we're talking. You move? You make sound, you get tagged. Think of Aliens and what the coloial marines used to track the alien down.

 

The motion sensor can be a weapon attachment, or an armor module, that displays movement on your minimap, but only if the movement is rapid. So a sneaking ninja that is patient may actually ellude the one with the scanner.

 

As you said, it opens up too many venues for gameplay to happen. Also, those stealthsuits = paper armor. Their defense is in not engaging the enemy :P

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Yep,

 

I was salso thinking about what I can do or not to do while in stealth mode myself or in my Ship.

 

If I use "active radar like" pulse scanning, I will break allmost in all cases my stealth and enemy will know im .... near. One ping is enough.

 

I can use passive recon tech such as thermal cameras, microphones, nigth vision, etc.

 

This can add extra layer to scanning+Stealth combination.

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Yep,

 

I was salso thinking about what I can do or not to do while in stealth mode myself or in my Ship.

 

If I use "active radar like" pulse scanning, I will break allmost in all cases my stealth and enemy will know im .... near. One ping is enough.

 

I can use passive recon tech such as thermal cameras, microphones, nigth vision, etc.

 

This can add extra layer to scanning+Stealth combination.

Well, the only actual stealth tech in space would be the Cloaking field, but it would have a limit before the crew begun to boil alive :|

 

Also, you need to remember, if the eneny can't see you in Cloak... you can't see the enemy either. Yup, it works both ways. So, get prepared for some submarine action in space, like, having a passive drone camera to monitor the surrounding area from a distance, to see if an enemy is facing towards you or away from you to get the jump on them.

 

But the thread is more Avatar oriented instead of Construct :P

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Well, the only actual stealth tech in space would be the Cloaking field, but it would have a limit before the crew begun to boil alive :|

 

Also, you need to remember, if the eneny can't see you in Cloak... you can't see the enemy either. Yup, it works both ways. So, get prepared for some submarine action in space, like, having a passive drone camera to monitor the surrounding area from a distance, to see if an enemy is facing towards you or away from you to get the jump on them.

 

But the thread is more Avatar oriented instead of Construct :P

In space you have optical camouflage, heat sinking and radar masking as cloaking techniques. Heat sinking would just need heat sinks in your ship, but it would boil your crew alive. Optical can work fine, just needs a special kind of armour plating that drains energy. And radar masking would require something to provide interference so the enemy can't lock on, like a debris field or decoys.

 

All of these would reduce the enemy's ability to pick you up or track you, but they cannot be on indefinably (except radar masking, the enemy knows you are there but can't pinpoint you exactly).

 

Whilst for radar masking it would be hard to adjust sensors to get a read, the others would still allow you to see the enemy, but would limit your actions if you don't want to break concealment. Having both optical and heat sinks plus running silently means you will be completely undetectable, and you can still pick up radar contacts, but you won't be able to target them using your guns as they would need to emit a signal to range-find (like a laser).

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In space you have optical camouflage, heat sinking and radar masking as cloaking techniques. Heat sinking would just need heat sinks in your ship, but it would boil your crew alive. Optical can work fine, just needs a special kind of armour plating that drains energy. And radar masking would require something to provide interference so the enemy can't lock on, like a debris field or decoys.

 

All of these would reduce the enemy's ability to pick you up or track you, but they cannot be on indefinably (except radar masking, the enemy knows you are there but can't pinpoint you exactly).

 

Whilst for radar masking it would be hard to adjust sensors to get a read, the others would still allow you to see the enemy, but would limit your actions if you don't want to break concealment. Having both optical and heat sinks plus running silently means you will be completely undetectable, and you can still pick up radar contacts, but you won't be able to target them using your guns as they would need to emit a signal to range-find (like a laser).

Well, technically, the way I see it, the Lock-On at a construct on CvC is the range-finder, as it establishes and keeps track of the target you are aiming at. So, an asteroid field would actually be a problem for a turret to lock-on a ship, as the asteroids would act as anatural shield if the Gunner was to fire when the target was passing behind a rock.

 

Optical camouflage does not actually work well, as heat is not contained, unless the ship requires heat sinks, special paint-job, (Ventiblack), but even then, the heat sinking would be limited before its containments well critical. And heat sinking on its own would not work if the ship was to be accelerating, as its thrusters alone would be leaving a trail behind them of ions.

 

Radar is too primitive for space, you only need Optic Sensors as they don't have to bounce a signal and wait for its return, as they are essentially very smooth mirrors that are able to reflect the full spectrum of light, hence they can pick up things pretty well given the background cold of space. A spaceship would be standing out like Hell in Alaska :P

 

But the thread is not about CvC detection. That is way too complicated to discuss. It got sensors of all kind and stealth of all kind ( as you pointed out as well ).

 

The conversation can go forever, which is why I focused on Avatar V. Avatar detection methods at night and not space in general :P

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Well, technically, the way I see it, the Lock-On at a construct on CvC is the range-finder, as it establishes and keeps track of the target you are aiming at. So, an asteroid field would actually be a problem for a turret to lock-on a ship, as the asteroids would act as anatural shield if the Gunner was to fire when the target was passing behind a rock.

 

Optical camouflage does not actually work well, as heat is not contained, unless the ship requires heat sinks, special paint-job, (Ventiblack), but even then, the heat sinking would be limited before its containments well critical. And heat sinking on its own would not work if the ship was to be accelerating, as its thrusters alone would be leaving a trail behind them of ions.

 

Radar is too primitive for space, you only need Optic Sensors as they don't have to bounce a signal and wait for its return, as they are essentially very smooth mirrors that are able to reflect the full spectrum of light, hence they can pick up things pretty well given the background cold of space. A spaceship would be standing out like Hell in Alaska :P

 

But the thread is not about CvC detection. That is way too complicated to discuss. It got sensors of all kind and stealth of all kind ( as you pointed out as well ).

 

The conversation can go forever, which is why I focused on Avatar V. Avatar detection methods at night and not space in general :P

I was going to add something about avatar camouflage in my post, but it wan't a fully fleshed out idea (now it is though)

 

What about regular camouflage? Having a ghillie suit or camo patterns? I don't think such things will effect combat as you will see them as lockable signatures when you might not be able to see them yourself (without the UI). Would there be a way to solve for this?

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But the thread is not about CvC detection. That is way too complicated to discuss. It got sensors of all kind and stealth of all kind ( as you pointed out as well ).

The conversation can go forever, which is why I focused on Avatar V. Avatar detection methods at night and not space in general :P

If you want to discuss/read ideas about construct stealth tech, and you have lots of time, check out this thread: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/637-some-thoughts-on-stealth-ships/?view=findpost&p=6426&hl=stealth

 

But you will need LOTS of time!

 

As far as avatar stealth goes, I like the idea!

 

In addition to using a smoke grenade to hide from standard NV, what about having a "thermal" smoke grenade? It would create a cloud of heated smoke that will block both visual and thermal optics, at least until the smoke cools, then you have just the visual block. The downside(s) could be: they are more expensive/larger, so you can't afford/carry as many, and the cloud is smaller and/or shorter-lived than a standard smoke grenade.

 

Also, a question: wouldn't a motion sensor need to "see" movement in order to detect it? And since visual stealth absorbs/redirects ALL incoming light, how will the sensor pick out movement when it can't even see the object moving?

 

Unless of course you had a type of sensor for each style of stealth suit: thermal detects "invisibility" suits, and visual detects "thermal stealth"?

 

Maybe I just missed it, or have misunderstood the concept of what kind of sensors were being discussed. :)

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If you want to discuss/read ideas about construct stealth tech, and you have lots of time, check out this thread: https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/637-some-thoughts-on-stealth-ships/?view=findpost&p=6426&hl=stealth

 

But you will need LOTS of time!

 

As far as avatar stealth goes, I like the idea!

 

In addition to using a smoke grenade to hide from standard NV, what about having a "thermal" smoke grenade? It would create a cloud of heated smoke that will block both visual and thermal optics, at least until the smoke cools, then you have just the visual block. The downside(s) could be: they are more expensive/larger, so you can't afford/carry as many, and the cloud is smaller and/or shorter-lived than a standard smoke grenade.

 

Also, a question: wouldn't a motion sensor need to "see" movement in order to detect it? And since visual stealth absorbs/redirects ALL incoming light, how will the sensor pick out movement when it can't even see the object moving?

 

Unless of course you had a type of sensor for each style of stealth suit: thermal detects "invisibility" suits, and visual detects "thermal stealth"?

 

Maybe I just missed it, or have misunderstood the concept of what kind of sensors were being discussed. :)

Motion sensors work on shockwaves created when a person's feet pound on the floor, distinguishing a person moving from a rat moving, by the level of force emitted. If a person was to move slow, or (somehow) tread at a peculiar pace, the Motion Sensor would not detect it, which can b a skill training "Silent Running", which reduces the range in which Motion Sensors can detect you. But yeah, motion sensros can be used to detect a cloaked target, or a ventiblack stealthsuit, being only avoided by moving slowly - or having such a skill as Silent Running.

 

And yes, I've seen that thread and it's full of epic ideas albeit some of them are game-breaking :P

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I was going to add something about avatar camouflage in my post, but it wan't a fully fleshed out idea (now it is though)

 

What about regular camouflage? Having a ghillie suit or camo patterns? I don't think such things will effect combat as you will see them as lockable signatures when you might not be able to see them yourself (without the UI). Would there be a way to solve for this?

A ghillie suit could work via the very principle of staying still. If my assessment is correct (in which I could be utterly wrong), te names will be displayed via tab when you scan someone. If a sniper can remain idle and not attract attention, the ghillie suit would be perfect, but only if the names don't float over a person's head.

 

Also, I made a thread on the way a stealthsuit can be utilised to complete block a person from being scanned for their name - but doing the msae to them, as you can't have a perfect defense. Feel free to provide some input, the thread is HERE . 

 

I personally hope for a mechanic that requires a person to look at another player with their reticle zeroed on them, then use the radial menu or a shortcut keybind to "scan for ID" and get their name that way, becuase crowded cities will be a pain in the ass to deal with if players' names float over their heads all around you :P

 

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Thanks for the explanation on the sensors Captain! I can definitely see how those type could sense movement of an invisible object!

 

I too hope that they don't make everyone's names automatically visible, and that there is a way to block them from showing up to others, be it a stealth suit or other means.

 

From an immersion perspective, the names could be something that is assigned to the cerebral implant, then just displayed via the "mind's eye" if you will. That would make it possible to limit the number of names you choose to see, (only from same org, only X piloting skill, etc.) or the ability to simply "turn off" your name transponder.

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Thanks for the explanation on the sensors Captain! I can definitely see how those type could sense movement of an invisible object!

 

I too hope that they don't make everyone's names automatically visible, and that there is a way to block them from showing up to others, be it a stealth suit or other means.

 

From an immersion perspective, the names could be something that is assigned to the cerebral implant, then just displayed via the "mind's eye" if you will. That would make it possible to limit the number of names you choose to see, (only from same org, only X piloting skill, etc.) or the ability to simply "turn off" your name transponder.

Think of it as the current state credit cards you can pay via scan. Your cerebral implant holds your ID and basic info. Sure, a hacker could be able to hide his real ID or even make a false persona, or even negate the pacification signal emitted inside the Protection Bubbles.

 

In my opinion, people's names should be shown over their head when you are in a group with them. That way, yes, I totally would like to see my buddies' names over their heads when we group up. But I do not want to see everyone's names over their head in a city or a space station, nor do I want it to be a tag I can turn on and off, cause hidng from people will be practically impossible if they see giant green letters over your head at all times.

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Would be cool to have a "scanning"/security point-of-entry to a city/base!

Scanning haulers before entry to check for hidden items. Also creating an additional type of job :)

 

"So what are you hauling today sir?"

"Just some regular space potatoes and erotic magazines! No need to check" *Wink wink*

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