Moosegun
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Posts posted by Moosegun
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Interestingly I took a totally different paths from the majority. I have never sold ore to bots, infact never sold it to players. I rarely mine and when i do I mine relatively small amounts (rarely carrying anything over 1kt). I made my fortune from selling mainly T1 products to players, since the second day of headstart. I made satellite factories at key planets producing certain alloys, which I then shipped to a central space station of make higher tier items. My favourite was my Cat3 factory on Lacobus, where i managed to create 1000 Cat 3 and get it on the market for beta launch, selling at 100k EACH.
Not just ship parts but also anything else I could make. I was soon making 100's of sales a day and huge levels of quanta. I never tried to build a super factory or be self sufficient. i made what i sold and used the profit to buy stuff other people made. I never made massive spammy super haulers, because I never felt the need to move huge quantities of ore.
When 0.23 hit, it didnt really effect me as much as other, nor will any future patches, because i never tried to do anything that I didnt feel was part of the civilisation we are hoping to build.
Ironically, myself and a friend both quit for a while because of the kneejerk changes made after 0.23, such as changing the schematics prices and increase the bot buy prices. Both of which caused us more problems than the initial patch itself.- NQ-Naunet, Heidenherz and OrionSteed
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23 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:
Almost as ridiculous as no shields or other defensive devices and combat mechanics that amount to shoot first or die. The only thing (aside from fast travel) that warp does atm is allow unarmed undefendable ships to opt out of combat.
If shooting unarmed ships is important to you, you're a griefer, not a PVPer.
This is the attitude which ruins games of this type. The complete lack of acceptance of piracy / anarchy as a viable gameplay path. Not having weapons makes no difference as to whether you are a target or not, and if you think it should, then you should go find a game with no pvp.
Just out of interest, when you watch entertainment, do you see the Empire as 'griefers' or the Borg, or the Reavers? They are the excitement, the ying to the yang. -
On 1/18/2021 at 1:03 PM, nathanwiseman19@gmail.com said:
Warp:
-make it so you have to warp from 5-10 SU outside of the safe zone (excluding the 3 inner planets) and leave warp at a similar distance. this adds risk to warp unlike the current system where you can just reap rewards from.
-make it so your warp bring you out to a random position. this adds variation to warping and still gives players a chance of not dying instantly after leaving warp.
Been arguing this for some time, 100% agree, although I would randomise the warp spawn to sometime it does still arrive in safe zone.
On 1/18/2021 at 1:29 PM, blazemonger said:Can we stop wit the "WARP is unfair" already. Besides it implying you want acces to easy kills, while NQ works on proper counters and planet side combat, the safezones around planets stay in place and warp should have the endpoint in the safezone. Moving warp endpoints outside the safezones will not "fix PVP", it will just hand kills to those not willing to put in effort and/or find actual fights.
It actually adds a whole new gameplay loop - SECURITY. You want to go mine a distant planet, then you need to hire someone to make sure you get there safely. PvP has two sides to it.
That said, none of this is possible without the much anticipated player made mission. As communication in game is pretty much no existent at the moment. -
11 minutes ago, Warlander said:
Its the lack of choice that is the heart of the issue.
You arent really even given enough self sufficiency through division of talents to even start as a solo player and build a community from the ground up. Instead NQ arbitrarily decides you arent allowed to do that and you need 10-25 people to have a ok-semi good time to progress. If you cant build a base, industry, fly, or mine your way to building something players would want to collaborate or work together on then your only choice is to join a large org then build your own. Who wants to join a ground up full list of projects needed to get an org going vs a pre-established mid-mega org? They do everything better and more efficient.
Its not impossible to do its just a lot more work then you can expect people to be invested in to get an org off the ground.
Me personally seeing how much NQ hates me and wants to punish me for playing in a small group just makes me not want to fit into NQs mold since its not a faction I can support on my own terms its a forced select group of guilds that dictate everything to you. Im not cool with that and im still inching towards the goal of getting to that point where we are a mid size guild despite NQ and how much they stack up against the way I play. Or how much NQ does not understand about MMO gamers in general with well established social norms players should have every right to play as they want to. You cant do that in pretty much 90% of the aspects of this game currently. Applying more pressure to join the zerg borg factions does not appeal to me in this game.
Going to pull you up on the 'players should have every right to play as they want to' comment, for me it is complete horse shit. You have the right to play the game that the developers want to make, if you dont like it, then you have the right to move on. You do not have the right to divert a game from its agreed paths to suit your requirements. Just like I dont have the right to go into the farmville forum and demand PvP, because I want to play that way. Not sure why game design is the only form of entertainment where the audience feels they have some given right to mess with the creator vision.
I run a very successful small org myself (basically two of us do most of it), got no idea what all these barriers are you seem to be coming across. Unless you are trying to make EVERYTHING yourself. Not sure there is anything i want to do ingame at the moment, which i cant do, short of owning a warp beacon. -
On 1/16/2021 at 1:30 AM, Hazaatan said:
This game has all the variables to create an equation to have both PVE and PVP. But the current equation is garbage. So many things wrong that can be fixed if the big corporations weren't filled with griefers and cry-baby-baby-boss'. The corporations are not interested in sustainability. All they care about is having an advantage over players and taking advantage of players.
The game is in desperate need of a restart, but a restart to a new direction. This PVP + Corporation + hate the solo/small group play is not sustainable.
For all of you tards that 'can't wait for PVP', The corporations are going to crush everyone else until there is 2 or 3 big corporations left. This will happen fast. Climax is over, the game will begin its fast spiral to being obsolete.
I predict that the devs will make a PVE server after that to keep money coming in. And the cry-baby-baby-boss' and griefers will find a new game to destroy.
As someone who knows several key figures within the largest orgs in the game, this doesnt match my experience. i have found the big orgs to be some of the most dedicated players towards the game.
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On 1/15/2021 at 3:44 PM, fiddlybits said:
Advertising is definitely an issue in game. I have similar concerns with all the groups creating player cities, markets, apartments, etc. It's hard to see how they'll have enough participants to survive.
That said, this track is a lot of fun to fly on. Thank you for your work Burble.
For me it is the BIGGEST issue with the game, internal comms. I read over and over again that all there is to do is mine in this game. When actually that is totally not true. The problem is that you need to search for all the other options. You can be a prospector (but you need to use another discord), or ship sales (but again, really need another discord), you can have your own shops (but noone know they are there), you can offer refueling / repair services (again though, noone can contact you about it in game - discord again). I have a list of 15 different Career paths you can currently take in DU, only 3 of them are really viable without having to work outside the game.
I really think that once NQ allows us to share / advertising what is going in actually IN the game, then we might start to see the civilisation start to emerge, not the current sandbox of hundreds of seperate orgs that barely interact with each other. -
On 1/15/2021 at 3:21 PM, fiddlybits said:
This is not true for games because money/assets frequently go out of circulation when players stop playing. Beyond that, DU has money sinks when buying from bots which remove quanta from the game.
The daily quanta is only given to people who log in, it is a quanta faucet that scales with the players base, and as this stage is the best way to manage injection of quanta. Ore bots are cause horrific damage to the game, and encourage very short term solo gameplay loops, as opposed to gameplay loops which help the game / economy, such as actually making worthwhile products and selling them to players.
On 1/17/2021 at 3:50 AM, Kill Code said:DID YOU KNOW!?!
EvE a game that has a player driven economy and has been around for more then 10 years, STILL HAS BOTS!?! that buy stuff!!! What!!! yea its true!
But why?Because in a game economy there is a lot of stuff players can make that other players will rarely ever buy. And over time after more and more players are building more stuff there is never enough demand to buy many constructed items. Also time locked skills... New players dont enter the game and immediately have access to build everything in the game so they cant simply plug the holes in the market as a natural market would dictate, so what then? You want to tell new players 6 months from now that if they want to get into building stuff first they need to train building skills for 1 year just to compete with older players on building end game top tier elements because the low tier stuff is market flooded and worthless? And since players will always use less produced goods then are produced the market will fall into free fall and much like EvE was for many years (before a revamp) players will find that it costs more money to produce an item then raw ore is worth just to sell.
Consider this: A single player (player A) could buy minerals off the market at "player set prices" or mine them ( you know mining yourself vs buying ore at player set prices has no difference when you are calculating the worth of producing a product) and then from there construct 1000's of ML of honey comb to put on the market. Then another single player (player B ) would buy that honeycomb to construct a ship... But never buy honeycomb again to construct another ship for maybe say a month? Meanwhile player A (and other players like him) continue to build more honey comb and put it on the market. There will never be more demand for honeycomb then the player base will supply. And due to the fact that players have to skill into producing items low tier honeycomb will be all they can produce so they will forever be far more supply then demand.So as of right now and the foreseeable future there are only a few ways to make money, mine ore, or sell produced stuff on the market. Given only those 2 options there will forever be more demand then supply, or the market will be so broken as it is now people wont even bother to build stuff and sell it.
You do realise a new player can come into the game and turn their day 1 money into millions JUST from buying cheap products and moving them to other markets? The issue here is that NQ gave so many get quanta instantly options (such as ore buy bots) that most players have never looked at the alternative. Why bother making products, listing them and waiting for them to sell (even if you make LOADS more money), when i can just sell instantly to a bot. NQ has made a rod for its own back with this one, it has introduced gameplay options which allow people to completely bypass the 'player made' element of the player made economy.
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On 1/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, Maxim Kammerer said:
Without enough Quanta circulating you can wait forever for your products to be sold. Even with bots as source of cash there is currently no chance to get 4x the ore sales value. With a lot of products you can't even make profit at all because they have market prices far below their ore sales value.
That is wrong in theory (with money sinks (e.g. schematics) there must be corresponding sources for cash) and in practice (deflation is still ongoing).
Complete rubbish, you are falling for the foolish notion that people buy from the cheapest source, A LOT OF THEM DONT, they buy from the closest source. I have sold large atmos for 400k, when you can buy them for 100k a few kilometers away. If you are basing whether you can sell something on the lowest price on all markets, you are doing it massively wrong. The billion+ quanta of market sales I have made confirms that.
Here is a days worth of sales from back when i was trading, EVERYTHING on this list was sold at 3-4 times ore value. -
On 1/18/2021 at 8:10 AM, CptLoRes said:
Nerfing industry and mining was an inconvenience for large orgs, but for single players it is catastrophic. Single players are now unable to build the industry needed to be self sufficient and have the resources to explore other aspects of the game. And as a result are now stuck doing mining and nothing else just to get by with the bare essentials
Ever thought that NQ dont was solo players to be 'self sufficient' they might want them to have to engage with the community / civilisation. The issue i have here is why everyone thinks they are competing in a game where we are supposed to be working together to build something?
Also why does everyone act like you HAVE to mine in this game, I know loads of people enjoying the game who rarely mine. They buy ore from miners. -
On 1/7/2021 at 4:36 PM, Warlander said:
I love pvp but this is not a pvp game. Its not even a PvE game. Its not even a survival game its meant to be. They missed the mark and somehow created their own genre I would only describe as PvC or player vs crafting.
Just because they added some half baked rare pvp does not make it so. There is no skill in it in a skill driven game. Its ambush pvp at best and that is saying a lot. Territory wars will not make it better. The PvP redesign will not help either as they have no idea what they are doing or they would have done it being the core of this game. But they didnt, and they wont. Its just a much as a gimmick as it was in EQN Landmark.
Ultimately its a crafting and building game built on the back of a higher resolution mine craft and it fails hard at that too. The only thing this game has going for it is the ship building, base building, and industry. Not PvP. And since they brought in the crafting community and baited PvPers in this game will never work with how much effort it takes to mine, process, craft, buy, build, and run a base vs how quickly it will be destroyed with the faux PvP is 2500:1. This is not a PvP game or people would be throwing away 100+ mil ships like candy and willing to fight, but like 5% of the community likely does any kind of PvP.
It aint a PvP game as much as the devs or the PvPers here want it to be. Or how much they tell the "carebears" to leave who do they think makes everything and mines everything for their to fight or gank ships from? Certainly aint PvPers.
Territory Wars? All that is going to do is clear the planets of the bogarted juice tiles and pretty much they likely already own most of them from when they were able to drop 100k putdowns of TU's that is now 2mil. So basically once they wipe out all the cache tiles of people who no longer play or the small org staging bases nobody will ever build a base outside of Alioth and PvP is dead.
New universe to PvP in? Its mega org exclusive content nobody else will ever evperience once they blockade the jumpgate / star gates. Dead content for 500-1000 people for their own personal server solar system to destroy everyone else just that much faster after wholesale systematic stripmining that they own most if not all of already.
This aint a PvP game.
Weird that you think it is a survival games, I have never once in my three years of playing considered it a survival game. That actually explains a lot of your posts. I bought a civilization building game, you bought 'Rust in Space'.
You have ZERO idea of how pvp terri war is going to be implemented, you completely ignore the information we have be given (which suggests is will not be easy to attack territories and that areas which are well populated could well act like player made safe zones). Your comments are so bias towards your own gameplay style it is laughable.
I agree this is not a pvp game, but it is also NOT a solo building game.
It is a game which is missing some glaring features before it is even close to being the sum of its parts (mission system, player markets, completed pvp mechanics) -
Not going to read the whole thread but for some time I have been pushed for randomisation of warp entry points on the outer planets (outside Ailoth, Madis, Thades initially). Make it so that when you warp you will arrive at a more random location, potentially OUTSIDE safe zones. You could even have safe zone varying throughout the day. This would bring the potential of pirate / pvp gameplay to the planets being used by players experienced enough to deal with it.
Creating this, also creates the need for security services. You want to take your big miners / hauler to a far flung locations to reap the rewards, you might need to hire some security to help you get in and out. Increases community engagement, allows for more varied career paths which include an element of pvp and adds some much need risk to what should be a later game activity.
The ability to completely avoid pvp, doing these sorts of activities, at this stage of the game is WRONG. -
On 1/8/2021 at 6:59 PM, blazemonger said:
That is true @Haunty .. The issue here is that bug reports just get stuck in queue with the rest which means there is no triage or queue management at all..
Conjecture to be honest mate, you have no idea how they sort or priorities tickets. I have submitted loads of bug / exploit tickets, which i have never heard back about but the bug / exploits were fixed.
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15 hours ago, NQ-Deckard said:
I cannot transcribe in words how cool I think this is. ?
Amazing work Burble!This is actually the forth racing org I have seen, as far as i am aware the other three have folder due to lack of community support, which is an absolute joke (players moan there is nothing to do but then dont take part in the stuff players create). Part of this falls on NQ, there is zero support for these sorts of community projects, this sort of thing should be front and centre of what NQ promotes.
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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:
The value of ore is fixed by bot orders. It can't depend on demand as long as selling ore to bots is the major source of cash.
You still don't see the problem. The major role of mining is not ore supply but generation of cash. If almost no one would mine for a while the economy would run out of cash and collapse.
The missing puzzle pieces are additional ways to inject cash into the game.
Ore bots have destroyed any chance of a real player made economy, they are a closed gameplay loop which encourages players to sell a finite commodity for the lowest possible value, removing it from the game. It gives players an easy options to get quanta, whilst completely bypassing the player community. The only slight benefits to the player is that it is the payment is instant and most players are too lazy, to turn the ore in to actual products and wait for them to be sold (making as much as 4x) the ore sales value.
Your points about economy collapsing are also floored, you DO NOT need a constant influx of money to keep an economy viable, there is enough quanta in circulation at the moment if it was actually traded between players. -
On 1/14/2021 at 4:13 AM, Eternal said:
Here are number of things that turns me off about this game which are reasons why I want to play the game less:
1.) the build mode editor can produce extensive results but through means of voxelmancy. With how voxels behave, it is just painful to build as you will get a lot of unexpected results and commonly are permanent even if you undo the action/s--these are painful to fix/redo. And since you will voxelmance everything which is very time-consuming, it is wise that you build your own voxel library to save your reusable shapes which you spend a lot of time creating for the purpose of reusability and saving time in your future projects.
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8.) We have too many honeycombs in this game! Too many that it is not good! Look at their application? They are all applicable for everything which means they are just variety of textures! Make this less of a clutter!
1. Interesting thing about building and voxelmancy, some of the BEST builders in the game - Thousand Stars, Poljack etc dont use voxelmancy really, they build with standard shapes. Once you learn that it is actually pretty straight forward. Poljack is currently completing our new large core space multipurpose. It only took him a about two weeks of game time to complete.
2. There is nothing wrong with quanta injection, it is the start of the game and the economy, it NEEDS a huge injection of wealth. EVER economy needs that to kick start it. Whilst I agree the way of distribution isnt the best and I hope in the future it is updated, there is not any issue with it per se. I will not argue that NQ have made other choices which have damaged the eco though.
3. Sorry but not every org is communist, infact far from it, there are a lot of org, including mine, who focus on helping people create independent career paths in game. Everyone in our org is encourgage to own personal property, the ONLY communal property is supplied by me, the org leader for others to use. I never ask org members to do something for nothing.
4. Just build a 4 l core hanger, which is a pretty large space. It took two of us about two hours to clear the site completely ready for the build. There are also other players you can hire to do the job for you if you dont enjoy it (CORE gameplay concept)
5. Not got a massive issue with the talents system but i would like to see a much more advanced starting position moving forward. So new players are given the talent points at the start to focus on their chosen gameplay route
6. Feel free to come visit us and test fly some of our ships. Making a viable ships which is very easy to control is pretty simple
7. I am lucky to have built up a large amount of wealth in game, I stopped mining week 2 of headstart. My best friend has made several hundreds of millions selling ships (he literally mined about 3 times in 6 months).
8. Agree with that, I would like to see set honeycombs as the item and colours as variety you can choose on deployment -
On 1/14/2021 at 12:57 AM, Warlander said:
Sure this game might be promoted as a pvp game but would you rather play a PvE server if they had one?
Q2 goes to those in a coma lurking the forums, Would you come back to play if they offered a PvE server?
Q3 is if we dont need finite resources for PvP competition would you rather just play on a server that has respawning resources?
The reason I play DU less now than ever is the LACK of jeopardy and risk, I came into this game as wanting to be a space industrialist, supplying my good across the galaxy. Well I did that and without some sort of risk it is getting boring. I cannot WAIT for pvp to come into the game, it will also allow me to start recommending the game to the 80% of my friends i currently have on hold. You must understand that pvp is not only wanted by pvpers but a lot of other players as well.
As for a pve server, moot point, NQ cant do it and WONT do it 100% fact. -
10 hours ago, Warlander said:
The mission system will only serve to bait people into pvp or to pay cut rate missions. You arent going to pay more than something is worth and the ones that seem worth it are liely going to be traps. If suddenly there are quests to transport anyone can do that. Missions to mine anyone can already do in a bot run market. PvP when you can already do that. Build when you can already do what it seek to achieve. The system changes nothing. The only reason for it is to pay people less then you would pay for it on the market or to exploit someone to their death for quick profit. JC even said so much on one of the live streams.
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SO is it worth it? Its what is going to happen. Kill off the game to make the neglected bastard children pvpers you brought in or keep the people who make and build and mine everything happy who make up the 75+% happy and continueing to play? This is a crafting game after all. If it werent then PvP would be more of a thing then the PvP community figuring out how best to kill off the rest of the game by stipping protections piece by piece and nobody wanting to enguage them and if they could there is no defenses to stop it. Nobody wanting to PvP in a supposed PvP game is not a good sign and an indicator of how badly designed this game is. There is no one thing you cant point at where the system is broken and going the wrong direction. Or that fixing any of it pretty much requires a complete direction shift to make it approachable to anyone. Designing a grind sink to defeat a player from lack of content is not a game at all. At best we have a home business sim with some muggers added to spice things up. There is no reason for the muggers to exist in the scenerio being there its just for show.
Wasnt going to bother commenting on this paranoid negative rubbish, but cant resist......... you have no concept of the original game concept at all, it is completely void from your argument. Literally a wall of text to support your our idea of what the game should be, a game that caters just for you.
You talk about you own ideas and opinions as if they are somehow fact. Possibly one of the most bias and self serving things i have seen on this forum for some time. You include stats bases on nothing but figures you have pulled from your backside. -
3 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:
Ya, just drop all the safe zones of the outer planets, and you will see an instant spike in player base. This is a VIDEO GAME, not "lets try to accumulate as much virtrual bullshit and horde it away simulator". People want some excitement, and some space explosions, some politics, and some MEANING.
I dont even think you need to drop it at this stage. If they just randomised the warp entry points and or made the safe zone distance move over time it would make all the difference. Currently you can just warp past everything, if there was just a chance that miners / traders would land outside safe zone (or have to take off outside) then it would bring security into the game. All of a sudden you open up loads of additional gameplay paths for a far wider range of players.
I LOVE DU but I will still only recommend it to 20% of my friends in its current state because the others require the sort of jeopardy I am talking about to make the game entertaining. People need to understand that it is not only pirate who want some risk in the game. -
9 hours ago, Kill Code said:
the reason for a financial wipe would be to allow the devs to set the game to "easy mode" making everything easy to obtain and most importantly dirt cheap. This would effectively make the full game a creative mode letting players build, fight, do what they want with very little grind. This would be done to float the game until more systems for money making could be made and implemented (dedicated in game creative mode). Such as auto miners, missions, pvp zones with rare minerals, item shipping or people shipping contract/transport services with in game menu to facilitate transactions. During this development phase people would be amassing large wealth quickly but obviously this would neg effect the market and or make it too easy to self-produce all items. This in either case would be an unfair advantage for those playing now during the easy times to those playing in the future near release date.
Hate to break it to you, we have already had the building phase where loads of player have got everything they need to play for years. Things like missions systems etc are supposed to be coming soon, and then hopefully more of the wealth generated can be passed to other people. via the methods you mention above.
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On 1/13/2021 at 8:45 AM, Kill Code said:
The Problem they have with this game is Lack of content....
UNDERSTAND THEIR SITUATION:
They cant just wave a magic wand and create 1000's of hours of programming that will put many different developed systems in the game to give players various ways to make money. This game is set up much like EvE (resource based economy, player driven, everything is crafted by players, Game progress is based on money earned, skills are time locked) without the benefit of over a decade ....
TLDR
There are loads of easy ways to make money in this game, without even mining. My issue is not making money, it is spending it, there is currently no point. The issue is that the ways to make money are not clear, there are actually loads of viable gameplay paths that some people are doing but many people have no idea about.
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20 hours ago, Musclethorpe said:
To not be aware of the patch means they do not have a single piece of industry machine, which is difficult to believe if trying to construct an L core ship. Possible, but hard to believe. Especially if they really only have 1-2 hours per day, which means all of that time is spent mining, or taking that ore to market/buy parts, when not building.
It can be difficult to believe people who have just managed to find different (more successful) ways of doing things. Most people accuse me of lying when I tell them how I play this game, a few people have listened to me and learnt and are now doing the same thing (they are also not really effected by this patch).
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I dont really mine much and never have (NEVER flown to another planet to bring back ore for example and NEVER really sell ore at all), I buy ore from players, make T1 stuff and sell to other player at huge profits, have done since day one of headstart. My gameplay hasnt really been affected by the changes. Perhaps NQ wanted us to work within a trading economy all along, they didnt expect a big chunk of the community would want to make everything themselves.
It didnt help that all the content creators pushed this as the only gameplay route....... -
22 hours ago, Nightranger said:
He hasn't once portrayed his opinion as facts, He expressed how he felt based from information out there, and that is even more clear in his last post, If you wish to troll or shitpost particular people because there opinions differ, then please go to reddit or something and stop nit-picking on this thread, and trying to cause drama, because someone has an opposite opinion to yourself.
Everyone who posts, has an entitlement to their own opinion without the fear or need of having some idiot single them out and attempt to put them down, that sir, is called bullying, so go take a good hard look in the mirror at yourself and decide what kind of person you wish to be.lol, calm down we have a bit of history that is all, just having a wind up. He doesnt like NQ because he doesnt agree with some bans given out, which is an opinion, so to portray the whole company as somehow shandy, for purely something which is his opinion, is wrong.
22 hours ago, XKentX said:Most of the community does not support banning of those players. The didn't exploit anything. They just pressed B and played a game.
If MOST of the community did not support the ban then why did most of the support videos that were posted get taken down due to dislikes and unsubs? The feedback they got was dreadful. Again, you have no idea what the majority of the community felt, stop making stuff up.
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11 hours ago, le_souriceau said:
Yet, pretty soon, I think, we recieve some re-newable sources, because of newer players pressing NQ about T4-T5 (that are harder to find every passing day). So I hope OP guy find new stamina to give game another run after some rest.
I think you have pretty much summed up part of the issue, people panicking over something running out, which actually isnt running out, and which is only used in about 3 useful endgame items. Why are people even mining T4-5, explain that to me? Because there is a crazy notion that it has value, when actual it doesnt.......
Fixing PVP in DU
in General Discussions
Posted
Yeah that made no sense at all.