MookMcMook

Some sort of necro thread. It's been said quote-unquote: "This is the story of humanity in the stars" aka "The Civilization Building MMO". Also I don't think I've actually come across a convincing description of intelligent alien life yet. We're just not up to it yet in our imagination... so let's stick with humanity which still has a lot of work to do on it alone before moving along further! For sure various alien fauna and flora why not? THAT can tell us something about our own originating planet first of all.

This is a very insightful post, OP. I mean very. The writing is very much on the wall for those with eyes to see. As for your post OP, it barely registers a ripple. Some posts like the above, the few words they use the more you know that lies behind them. Other posts like yours the words they use, the less you know lies behind them. You're lucky to get such a high class reply as above, far more than is merited. Perhaps they mispelled their uname as "Haughty".

You're very welcome. Please do feel free to ask any more questions. Happy to discuss.

NQ said they'd update a roadmap for the Alphas. Naturally everything comes with delays likely as opposed to exceptional. You have to PAY the correct amount to get earlier Alpha version assess. Period.

Not sure they could have landed a better fit of experience for the role. Agree. G'luck to Oskarsson: Have fun messing with thousands of players!

Unigine 2. I don't want cartoonish style either but the animations / models seem fine to me, they're deliberately "blunt" in detail or will be for spaceships etc for performance reasons (graphical trade off) besides that lasts anyway. The game does not need to be stunning, compare to Minecraft block graphics and you'd be doing better.

Depends where you find toxicity: On the back of a poison-arrow frog it's an essential survival mechanism...

LOL! In laughter truth, in wine, wisdom (amongst friends). JC tweeted a sanctuary on Alioth's moon, it sent out the right vibes to me; you could say it was a "successful moon landing".

"A strange game... where the winning move is not to play."

@Ataren LOL. You will have a new shadow under a different sun!

I think most people use "sandbox" as a loose hand-waving about general freedom and creativity as opposed to the standard in almost all games/mmo-rpgs: Restriction. A "Pure" Sandbox would be closer to Garry's Mod for example. A Sandbox = Object manipulation and/or rule manipulation Serendipity smiles today this is an eg of the latter option of a Pure Sandbox... And hence I'm going correct what DU is, using this: It's NOT a pure Sandbox as above, Raw Manipulation -> Raw Creation. In DU the sandbox layer is already designed with PURPOSE (Telos) to create a Physical UNIVERSE (hint: Dual Universe name) via the voxel objects. It's already moving away from Raw Manipulation without pre-defined purpose. But that means the building and hence world interaction has just gone off the scale... hence it very much is a very sandbox game. Nothing new under the sun. And yet each day is an entirely new day.

It's not a problem. It's like trying to catch cat tails; just a pointless game. But the emphasis difference is useful for exchanging ideas and so that adds value.

For sure, "sandbox": "What's that thing in the sky? Oh that's a bird. See it has wings. What's that really big one then? Oh that's a plane..." On one level. MMOVW.

I'm sorry I used hero or trope where I could have used ego or convention with respect to mmorpg. That's more appropriate. I don't need to persuade or propaganda any ideas here, I do feel it's right to try to communicate effectively ideas however if at possible. Put it this way, a lot of game systems have mechanics and aesthetics that are deeply incongruous. You can say a particular genre is composed of the mechanics used, I say BS. That's a convention dependent on the current means employed and will change in time as it always does. Anyway, we'll see how DU manifests, there's a "groove" here, if you can follow it with your finger, it is weaving an interesting prospect. Really you're misconstruing DU: There's not a lot of hype about it. That's the whole point: It seems to me people are blind eg SC or NMS: How on earth are people so blind as to not understand what those games are or were going to be (not)?? This clearly proves that people don't see what is in front of their eyes. And that is a big reason why the games market (marketing) or other markets end up the way they do. What is exciting is the tech in DU. We don't know if that will translate to a great game system on top of it. But given most if not all mmoRPGs never ever get past first base, it IS exciting to see progress to base 2 for once. Finally, I've already provided factual evidence of where PHYSICALLY the game is different in design and that's only for starters: People are only going to get lost in semantics or sentiment, until they start using what's in front of them. Btw the way NQ has approached this is not the only way, but the tech they're using is you can be clear about this a very impressive way to design such a virtual world. So talking of limitations is a joke not to be taken seriously. It's actually:- 1. Sandbox 2. Simulation These are then creating a Virtual World MMO (MMOVW). It's one reason it's an exciting prospect.

You're merely talking about "Skill Abstraction" systems. The design emphasis of mmoRPGs very much is orientated around some peculiar notion that the CHARACTER (hero's journey completely ripped to shreds btw) is the centre of the universe "so to speak". Look at the designs. Or if that does not appeal, just put it that these mmoRPGs designs have much much more in common with each other than they do with DU, DU being an outlier to the extent it should have a different categorization merely through relative divergence. It's for this reason that these "worlds" have been such low interaction environments: As @BlorgonSlayer has been saying there's a cost associated to MMO scale and this very much is the cost of these mmoRPG designs: They're dead worlds or ghost towns. For some financial reason devs of mmos have assumed that each player is predominantly a power-projection of the player's ego. It's a limited and limiting design. The real potential is in networks of players within a highly interactive virtual world building construct... combining what computers do very well networking and data:- Physical systems -> logic -> player conceptual basis of the preceding -> Virtual World simulation game systems eg social tiers: combat, trade, politics and so on... these large systems then generate the necessary emergence. RPG is just a genre trope afterall in video-games it's not a fixed thing: ""Stats of chars is wot players H-M like in the market"" I say complete BS. Bartle did an interesting analysis recently: What things DON'T players like in games and that's partly how you end up with various genres. Fair enough: What about beyond that though? What creates new experiences via making video-games?

Emphasis. mmoRPGs = You the player are the "Hero": The focus. mmoVW = The "World" building is the focus. Of the design. The latter can include RPG elements, the former does not include virtual world building of sufficient depth and interactivity and mutability. It's interesting, Koster recalls that a lot of game journalists were, "Like, why would players want to bake bread and become a baker/boulangerie shop?" Yet often in many forums you have players piping: "Where's an MMO I can simply "be", not some dang hero saving the entire world, or be a simple farmer or whatever: Ie players don't want prescription, they want interaction that creates roles of some interesting consequence from their OWN actions and decisions as they experience the game world. For example, I am getting impressions that DU will be very helpful for players to be very cooperative to achieve really interesting things. Less emphasis on individuals, more on the world works like such, we need to get groups of players to do various things cooperatively to interact with it most interestingly. That sort of vibe... Idk, I'm not a pre-alpha tester.

How did you lose the "be" btw in your quote? Yes, you're inherently right. 1. All games end up drawing from other games. Minecraft drew heavily from "Infiniminer" for example, but it was Minecraft that blew up the Voxel genre you could say. I always felt Minecraft was like the true heir to the original Populous at a higher resolution... God I loved that game and still do 2. Again agree, an MMO's USP is SCALE, that sacrifices "granularity" as you point out (of detail). But that scale is potentially huge with respect to networks of players. A lot of money and lot of focus has been on SC but it won't scale... that vision hence is limited despite the stunning movie-like quality. You have realize the USP of GAMES themselves is not story, it's not sensory stimulation, though these are often v necessary in combination: It's interaction. Look at the interaction at scale potential. Will it end up that way: That's the question for the moment but we can refer to the preceding to conclude we're on the right road/tracks unlike other game designs. That is what I see and hear from NQ's conception and technology they're bringing to DU. Again we're ON the road, we're not "there" yet. 3. Graphics I believe are far over-rated: In fact what they're really good for is market discoverability and purchase boost. Not necessarily a good or great game that lasts. MMOs not only scale in the size of the virtual world but in the time they endure as games and hobbies for players to keep feeling involved and excited by. A big part of that is how successful the communities in the games develop and what FREEDOM and CREATIVITY they find. It's not graphics. I'm just waiting for one faction to produce a Star Wars Themed War Fleet modelled on "The Empire" against another fleet idk maybe Transformers The Fleet or something else suitably "jarring". Yeah the personal survival stuff is too granular for an MMO. It's a different genre and scale of gameplay. Those MMOs that went that route ended up being obsessively grindy killing early player fun too quickly. As said above:- 1. Many games today are derivative of making a platformer innovate within the platformer GENRE. Eg MMORPGs do this: DikuMUD -> EQ -> WOW -> Most other 3D Themeparks. They never deviated to reassess the original question of what an MMO should be and how best to represent that: It became a game design problem to tap a market to turn a profit and the cut corners are EVERYWHERE in these games and players know it or experience it. 2. The interesting innovation is when games take an entirely fresh reappraisal eg how do we simulate worlds/space at scale? UO -> EVE -> DU I feel go in this direction. I'd call them a separate genre: MMOVW (massively multiplayer online Virtual Worlds). It's good NQ simply call DU: "The Civilization Building MMO". Similar enough to the above acronym that it does not matter but "identifiably" NOT "mmoRPG" most importantly. If DU is sufficiently different as I think it is and will be then, people will notice that irrespective of name tags used. So "all's well that ends well... a rose by any other name."

Is DU really that "highly rendered graphics"? I don't think so. It's already an area of sacrifice. What's quite impressive is the LOD seeing stuff in the distance: I want to book my space tourism ticket already. Look at SC, it's ridiculous how much like a movie it looks in comparison. Yeah there's no water particles or collision, those are trade-offs: Performance, granularity of detail trade off for a scaled mmo and gameplay: These were discussed in the forums somewhere with some input from NQ. As to which is a better approach? Lots of servers with smaller populations but more realism and granularity (survival stuff is in this category) or a single shard. Personally, the bigger single shard population of players is a bigger pull. I think the shared story makes the story more interesting. Planets are proc gen atm and they use an algorithm for generating the correct type of resources and proportions. It's an area they can iterate on over time. Again they've managed size, so extras eg animals or some such, it's a future consideration. Given how much voxel terraforming there is and construct design, it's not a big issue. I do agree, I would love interesting biome parameters for more biological representation in the game... It'll be DIFFERENT from most of what is out. Too many games are made these days according to the established tropes of an established genre: People seem to expect a certain formula when it's been done a thousand times... Games originally arose not to become like previous games but to represent something we could experience or imagine and how that might be represented creatively using computers: The latter is a more interesting way of developing games. Instead "build a platformer"... *sigh*. This is what I like about the simulation dream. Could we represent worlds and how do we do that and what's the essential stuff to make if feel right: So much more interesting. Today's mmorpgs are all the former and it shows (bar a few exceptions).

Networking is nightmare. Until you see it working it does not work! Probably should use this standard for DU atm too to be consistent. They have done the bots and they are boosting the performance and working on increasing player load for pre-alpha, so the signs are good they're doing things in the right order! Those that don't, won't have anything near approaching an MMO. That applies even to MMOs.

With respect to the networking problem:- 1. Large Population Total 2. Population Density Problem It seems DU is designed (design intention) to be around EVE. I can't think of any other MMOs that invested into networking technology to the same degree (with 3d graphics). Bear in mind the reason for multiple shards is primarily number 2 and even then many mmos deliberately partition Total population via levelling zones, instances, game modes, quest hub bread crumbs and so on. Bear in mind large crowds in mmo combat are often a zergy mess and poor quality gameplay irrespective of performance meltdown too. The main problem is MMO as a genre has a USP arounding CONNECTING PLAYERS in high quality social interaction ways: Think of liking or following on facebook or twitter for example for social network. Trade is a primary means of this "There's No Catholic Or Protestant When Trade Is Being Conducted" is an old saying from days of yore for example. So that is exceptional category and the virtual economy is what will result if the game has:- 1. Enough social groups 2. Enough complexity in the sink-faucet of valuable resources 3. Distance/Scarcity dimensions 4. Politics and Territory above this. A lot of "mmorpgs" don't really make any sense. If you have economic pressures and incentives this fuels a lot of gameplay behaviour by individuals and groups. And that needs a lot of SCALING UP. Eg EVE. I think this simulation is a key component of virtual worlds: They must have designs that make more simulacra in gameplay behaviours emerging as they might in say historic epochs of human history at a high level. Obviously DU is a "what if...?" with humanity in the future beyond Earth and our own solar system and in other solar systems within the galaxy. Interesting if the simulation follows some of what we currently know and assume about large scale drivers of human group motivations and patterns. , then add voxels to that networking scale. I'm surprised how BLIND people appear to be And the other thing: I don't see a lot of voxel games but when you do see them and you see how creative they are, then that's a huge dimension for mmorpgs. Not just that but look at the above COMBINED with voxels by comparing game world sizes:- Ultima Online - 55.9 km² World of Warcraft - 80mi2 Asheron's Call - 500mi2 Guild Wars: Nightfall - 15,000mi2 The Lord of the Rings Online - 30,000mi2 (NOT AN MMO) Elder Scrolls Online - 62,000mi2 WWIIOL online uses a ½ scale map of Western Europe with 52,000 km2 (20,077 sq mi) of accurate terrain (800 m resolution satellite data). Life Is Feudal - 441km2 Now look at DU:- Dual Universe - ALIOTH ONLY: 45,238.93 km2 Now add to this... (still only Alioth...): Volume of physical planet Total = 1,150,346 km3 Bear in mind the volume of the Atmospheric Belt surrounding this physical volume (some of which will never be used oc) and then the amount of volume above this in Space radiating out used too. Does anyone have some info on the atmospheric radius of Alioth? You can see a thin layer clearly in the latest backer portal video. This is where the VOXELS really shake things up as you can see purely using the simple crude comparison of world size AREA vs Volume. In most mmorpgs there's tiny amount of volume for starters: Limited free-form flight and interaction in this dimension or else gradient rise and fall. I think some mmorpgs have swimming deep in seas/lakes. But overall the ground is texture and hence area interaction mostly. Not only can players go up and down in locomotion the actual physical layer is useful for resources and building structures too with voxels. Then add the space around the other planets and the total solar system, then add more solar systems... And I barely mentoned what sort of huge data on the voxel manipulation changes to the world as well as the number and diversity of constructs multiplying changing the landscape or spacescape too. You can see that in theory, DU is really something else. Again EVE compares, but it's "empty space" (I really liked the theory behind their dust game linking but sadly it did not work in practice). Let's come back to the advantages of SCALING PLAYER NUMBERS (if it's possible):- With so much space, there needs to be lot of players for that space to make a tiny impact on it. That is to say, most mmorpgs, they are not complex interaction systems at all: Neither socially nor in game world interactions either. It will be interesting to see if DU achieves high physical interaction that itself drives further social interaction and that drives more of each and so on... It's still early days so that may explain why many don't seem to twig: Another NMS etc! But then... go back above look at those numbers, even add your own... did I already say people appear to be blind?

Are you sure about that? I don't know EGS so an explanation would be interesting. IS. Scale, networking, size, population density, all those reasons and more.

Not keen on these descriptions because they resort to subjective qualifiers too much ie subjective experience vs impartial object. At a high level:- EVE is more simulation. DU is a combination of sandbox (1st) and then simulation (2nd). THIS is a huge difference. It is not better or worse necessarily. For example today EVE has a thriving virtual economy DU does not. For example today DU has a sandbox voxel terrain construction + destruction manipulation interaction EVE does not. Community: EVE is oriented around combat which is a huge driver for the virtual economy simulation. DU will have more orientation around builders and creativity for the sake of creativity. We just don't know how the combat layer will pan out yet. This will generate different community interactions and in-game culture. I do expect a lot of EVE players to be interested in DU as EVE along with DU are both VIRTUAL WORLD MMOs (MMOVW). I expect those who are interested in ED and SC might be interested too given the large universe size and spaceship dimensions (1 design 2 build 3 script 4 crew 5 use). Let's not invite hubris. ps that avatar you use is simply awesome art. edit: what @Dunbal and @wizardoftrash both said and @blazemonger of course given the detail on EVE.

I've had "training".

Looking at the video, it looks to me that DU will be a fun game to collect "photos" in game and that sort of thing, maybe gifs and even videos too. The whole space tourism thing. What software can the DU community (Noveans), particularly those experienced with using such, suggest for use for this purpose with DU running?

You guys are OUT-THINKING YOURSELVES here. Number 1: They're boot-strapping the development of the game in tandem with the growing population of players. Think about it to make sense of what that statement means:- DU is the "Civilization Building MMO": Where FORM = SCI-FI + FUNCTION = VOXEL GAMEPLAY are merged together. That's the game! It is being built right now via the dev tech at NQ. 1) That is going to be huge huge gameplay creativity space. So do it. 2) That means safe spaces to advertise that you can just get on with building by finding a place in these things as per advertised (see the title again). 3) This core gameplay will be available SOONEST. This is proven whatever anyone wants to say eg pre-alpha early... 4) It will take time to mesh systems on top of this, a lot of time and iteration to get a balance. 5) The space taken by these safe places is TINY compared to how much MORE space/land there is elsewhere: Absolutely they're going to provide tons of space for people who just want to build. Relatively they're insignificant. Personally I envision a day years ahead where these bootstraps are no longer needed: The whole player base will have developed player-emergent interactions that self-organize some accommodation or other for builders, OR/Same thing, everyone gets over their own hump and realizes DU will work just fine in whatever way you are interested in. Then and again these things could become some raging success story... and who knows where that will take us...