Physics
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Posts posted by Physics
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3 hours ago, Daphne Jones said:
Actual PVP combat is inherently a loss center. Don't count on making profit from that.
Attacking unarmed ships, which I'm sure is what you mean by PVP, can be profitable, but the ships won't be there for you to attack - they'll stay in SZs or be armed.
To me PvP starts when you accept and take on the risk of contested territory. Don’t matter if you are a pirate, military force, rescuer, scavenger, armed escort service, armoured hauler convoy, fast hauler or the person who goes in with a seat strapped to a wet paper bag who waves their fist and calls anyone who one shot’s them griefer’s. Once you cross that border you give full consent to the risks because you want the rewards.
Imo For the economy to work NQ needs to finish the planned pvp development and ability to skip pvp for higher tier resources removed. Other incentives for taking on risk needs to and will be added later.
I’ve read that some people think because pvp has not had any updates in a while that it is just a “feature”. That was funny to read. PvP seems to be last on the Dev cycle but that would only be because it is important to get the infrastructure ready first. PVP content is what will close the loop and jump start this ship.
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I get the idea behind 0.23 but it was never going to do any kind of economy jump start, just the opposite. Why does economy suck? Because the game loop is unfinished. Without risk activities involving pvp for profit, everyone is a builder and no one needs one.
- OrionSteed, Dupont and Noddles
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Warp skipping will come to an end. Until then markets will remain good for buying finished products cheaper than the ore prices to make them and more and more items will become cheaper and cheaper.
When it does end people will learn how to make haulers that can sustain attacks and not get destroyed in 1-2 hits out of pure necessity. When NQ was looking for a way to jump start an economy with 0.23, I think they was looking in the wrong place.
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HVC is part of BOO. Just like the eye's and ronald rail gun's are Blitz team ships.
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Problem with pvp? It’s not ready yet and that is upsetting the whole balance of the game. Higher tier ores will be locked behind contested territory. Until then the progress for everyone is a free for all without any need for social structures / player markets, no matter how many patches like 0.23 you put in.
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7 minutes ago, Warlander said:
I love how its supposed to be some kind of epic battle but all this game currently has to offer is a mugging/carjacking sim and their only real ambition he is to break your legs to make the car jacking easier on the criminal and 10x worse for the victim. The only apparent solution I guess is to turn this mugging/carjacking sim into a petty theft and burglary sim?
Its not legit pvp bro between the Empire and Rebels its like MS13 vs some old people down the street mining their own business. Its not exactly a fair fight. They just never had a chance.
When the only solution to making it legit pvp is faction based homeworld combat between 1-4 solar systems with a central contention solar system and allowing players to choose their homeworld faction to fight for and then building an org to help the war effort and homeworld defense effort and working together as a larger group who cannot attack each other unless you leave the homeworld faction and create your own indepenent syndicate ore pirate faction if you think you can take on a much larger enemy. This is litterally the only way this game has a chance.
Otherwise its just pointless chaos with no other real endgame other then petty griefing and burglary with no equals as im sure large orgs to a certain extent wont turn their efforts against each other until everyone else is out of the way and out of the game.
Its not my fault they tout this building game as some kind of Eve Online. If it were set up properly I might have PvP'ed but since NQ does not understant well established principles in the MMO genre that you have a combat class primary role where everyone can fight and a secondary crafting role to accentuate what you do via crafting im stuck in a non combat role trying to bide my time and progress to some day fight but I dont have years to wait to do that. If we had a faction based system that had orgs working together I might build some ships to help the effort but not in this current system or the capacity i have to just build basic things or the inability to make honeycombs over having to choose useful practical parts has been a hamper on a lot of things when it takes like a litteral mountain of iron and mining 10hrs a day to make a wall. Mining the space of an L core should produce pretty much an L core's worth of material you would think.
If NQ made a friend / foe system that actually worked well and was relatively easy to use, i think you would find these factions emerge. We definitely do need this system, not just some half baked transponder things. Would it be that hard to make a system based on organisations and their players rather than single ships?
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11 minutes ago, Haunty said:
Just time and staff to put in all the features and polish the game
Think it goes without saying that's the tricky part for them. To get staff they need cash, to get cash they need players, to get players they need staff.
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Link cap is 10 for output and 10 for input. When building bigger industry players get around the cap by using a transfer units to move some of the parts / materials to another container giving you another 10 links. Rinse and repeat when needed.
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I think Blaze is right about Territory warfare claimed tiles having some kind of ability to shield friendlies from hostiles. But that is good in my opinion. It creates raid & defend gameplay to break these shields down.
Edit: Rather than the whole tile being a shield we may find an element such as a shield emitter unit that can only be placed on Static / Space cores that will provide pvp immunity, with set down times depending on when placed.
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One thing I know is our Community Management team is passionate and hard working, very hard working.
However i’m guessing that once you go deeper into NQ internal, the management of the internal teams have more closed ears and tunnel vision.
If NQ is going to turn things around they need to turn up the transparency just a tad and @NQ-Sophon and other Team managers needs to always remember one key fact. The Community Managers are the voice of your company’s customers and probably the most important assets you have at this point.
At the same time when at the design stages of production never be afraid to ask for suggestions here to fill the idea box. You never know what feedback may spark a good idea to run with.
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22 hours ago, Arctic_fox said:
Most of us who do so just disagree with your "rip the bandaid off" approach due to the fact we see the bandaid as one of the only things preventing DUs bleeding to death currently. Ripping it off is going to put the game further at risk in our eyes and to carry the metaphore a bit further. We want to see some of the gapeing wounds in DU heal a bit before we rip the bandaid off. Or in more clear terms.
The game mechanics are going to change yes. We all know that. However, the game as it stands cant have its guts fiddled with until more holes are filled in, so that if and when it goes wrong we dont have a second .23 on our hands. It needs the additional content to pad and soften the blow to make it something the game can survive and perhaps even thrive on. While waiting until the last second will obviously shake up players far worse then a gradual system. You dont pull more blood from a man dieing of blood loss and expect him to live.
You keep insisting on changing it now while seemingly ignoreing the points we make with "hire mercs and get guns" again and again without giving reasons why its a good idea beyond T4 and T5 mats, things which as has beem pointed out are nearly useless in the current itteration of the game. This in conjuntion with the fact that you are an NQ rep who boarderline disparages NQ on a regular basis (something that is very disheartening to us normal players by the way. Namely, that even the NQ reps hate the game as it stand) and your response to a recent comment namely one who quiped you get mad anytime a freighter warps and you cant rob them with and i quote "damn right" gives the impression that you also wish to gank players. Only reinforces the view that you and by extension boo dont care about the game anymore and just wish to be the ones to light it up.
This kind of constructive criticism is what i personally value the most. I think pretty much everyone here is still some what passionate about this game and its potential, otherwise we would not still be here. The points about the pvp system needing effective counter measures is bang on the money in my opinion.
The main part about the OP idea is to make warp a certain kind of counter measure in the fact that it would enable players to change direction, move off the common "pipes" and change their destination warp exit points. The whole point of that is to lower the chance of being detected by gankers as you come out of warp and at 0 speed. This of course will not be enough of a counter measure on its own and others will need to be developed and released before the big atmos pvp change comes and all safe zones outside the centre 3 planet triangle is removed. Maybe it would be a good idea to start a forum topic for a countermeasure think tank, because if there was a time to throw suggestions such as this out there, its now. I do still feel that the bandaid does need to get peeled off gently, otherwise when the patch that removes the safe zones comes people will need to adapt at a much more rapid pace.
When it comes to NQ they are always open to constructive criticism and their front line team do an amazing job in recording and reporting feedback from the community. With that said if i personally feel like they are on the wrong track i will never hold back on unloading both barrels towards them. Just like everyone here i want this game to succeed and do well.
12 hours ago, blazemonger said:We're not here to be your cannon fodder. Go find people who are willing to engage you and stop trying to find kills in corners of the game you really only come looking if you do not want to actually risk much, if anything, yourself.
This sadly is a prime example of criticism that is not constructive at all.
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33 minutes ago, Arctic_fox said:
And i find it funny how either oblivious or willfully ignorant you are that you think many of us are "anti-pvp" just because we dont agree with YOU or boo in general and instantly go into "cry moar carebears" mode. If you actully read our posts most of us are PRO pvp and would LOVE pvp content in the game, hell many of us crave it likey as much or more then YOU. However, we also would like there to BE a game to enjoy the pvp in and for there to be a POINT to the pvp aside from "lulz me r blew up teh noobs"
Your vision would not help the game and infact hurts it and quite badly.....at this time. Currently the game is not in a state where limiting options and forcing players into fights that they are likely to lose due to broken mechanics, balance issies, missing features and a SCORE of other problems is nothing but a negitive for the game. Right now we have exactly 3 flushed out mechanics. Mineing, building and flying. thats it.
Currently industry is broken as "only 10% of players" are supposed to use it, and while currently a determined player CAN force their way into it, the cost is so obscene that its a bad joke to new players. PvP is full of issues as noted by MANY players. There is really only 1 gameplay loop, mine to make stuff to mine more. There is zero reward to PvP aside from people like you getting to laugh as you destroy some poor carebear. And exploration is a bad joke right now especially considering how bloody long it takes and how limited most players who actully have a jobs time is. Compounding all of this is the fact there are ZERO counters to pvp that prey can use. No ECM, no jamming of radars to make targeting harder, no stealth fields, no powering down, nothing. The only solution is to build a space only warship or to jump.
If you then further restrict the game and start making it so travel and by extension industry and trade is even more restricted and gated off as well as blow up ships of players when getting started to begin with is already such a huge problem, then all you do is drive yet more players off. Especially with all the problems listed above, and in addition to there being no POINT to pvp. no reward no nothing. Even T4 and T5 mats are literally worthless as there is no point to them beyond fluff. No one is going to willingly risk hours or days of work for NOTHING and having it forced upon them makes them just say "to hell with this" and leave.
Infact many of us have pointed out once these are addressed your idea would be much more viable and that we even AGREE warp is a problem that needs to be addressed LATER when the game has more loops, less bugs, more features, better PvP countermeasures, and more things to do in general ontop of a REASON to PvP and a reward worth the risk.
Then again as i said you boohoos dont care you just want to watch everything burn so you can shoot up some ships.
I completely agree with you that the current pvp system and mechanics is unfinished and is in desperate need of the planned overhaul. I hope as well as the targeting side of the overhaul, decent counter measures like you mentioned are implemented to the pvp system as well because yes they are needed, desperately needed.
I do believe the PVP overhaul and energy system will come much sooner than Atmos combat and territory warfare, so in my opinion something does need to be done about the ability to complely negate contested territory using warp before territory warfare comes in to play and the game has a sharp change of direction rather than a slightly smoother one. If you keep the current warp system when territory warfare hits, you will find gank squads at the set exit points. I also agree with you on the 0.23 industry change and i am completely against the way NQ has implemented it. What i do not agree with is the personal attack on me and my org in your comments. You clearly do not know me or how i play the game. The same goes for the comments about the organisation i am in.
I will ask however that any Mod who reads this post does not delete it because of the personal comments, because i don't want them to take away the valid points Arctic has made.
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16 minutes ago, Arctic_fox said:
I was going to make a fairly detailed post about why his version of things is basicly "DU is dieing lets go ahead and kill it while causeing as much damage as posible" when i got off work but you beat me to it and summed up anything i would have said in a much more succinct and polite way then i could. Then again he has demonstrated he doesnt care how viable something is afterall "just put gunz on yer ship and hire a bunch of merc military escorts as likely to betray you as not or join a big org durr hurr" is his standard response.
Sadly i am entirely unsuprised as at this point considering recent posts the boohoo org seem to no longer care if the game lives or dies. They just want to be the ones to light the fire while complaining the whole time the fuse burns.
I do find these anti pvp posts fairly amusing because they appear to have no basis.
What are we trying to accomplish with them? Are you aiming for a U turn on the future vision of the game?
For example should we scrap any future plans to make the planets outside the safe zone triangle contested and lets have the safe zone bubbles on them remain forever?
If these remarks actually don’t have any basis let’s return to the actual subject at hand.
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58 minutes ago, Wolfram said:
This is something I consider valid. Warp just being like a really powerful engine and the cells being the fuel. But to keep that balanced some things that could make it more interesting:
- Ships can move while warping, but add a warmup period proportional to the warp distance (maybe weight too), so they aren't going to be easy prey but still not completely protected.
- Warping without enough fuel will result in the ship stopping at proportional distance covered of the jump related to consumed fuel.
- Emergency jumps using the above mechanics become possible, if one is being chasen and decides to use the warp engine to jump a few su away to escape a PVP, then this should be possible and encouraged.
Now, I don't really get what's with people who think the game should enforce PVP, I mean, how hard is it to some people understand not everyone is here for PVP, but to build stuff, chill after a long day, etc. I'm not saying PVP should not exist, it's part of the game mechanics, but anyone not wanting to participate on it should be able to, even if this involves spending some cash like the game currently offers via warp cells. Not everyone wants to spend their free time mining tons of stuff and selling it just to some random chad to come over and blow up their ships and potentially their resources too.
People will always have a large safe area to chill and not even think about pvp. From my understanding the vision has always been that if you want to reach and visit the contested planets and areas there will be risk. The reward is the higher tier resources and maybe other bonuses. The vision is coming, will it be a smooth or a 1 solid hit transition. Military escorts, pirates and scouts need business too.
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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:
As there is _no_ counter to attacks currently in game, I'd say that suggestion is rather one sided.
"put guns on your ship" is not a counter.
With the amount of senseless and pointless pewpew currently in game and the amount of loopholes and borderline exploits giving attackers a massive advantage I'd say NQ needs to bring in proper countermeasures and introduce ways to deal with logged off beacon alts before giving more room to those looking for kills instead of fights
I'd say, while NQ proceeds on the PVP overhaul they have announced, why don't you find and engage with likeminded players where you will actually get a risk/reward ration from combat PVP..
For Solo play counter measures would currently be limited to avoiding detection and using speed. However encouraging solo players to use services such as military escort’s and scouting is never a bad thing. As already stated. Warp skipping is coming to an end one way or another. At least this is a much more softer approach.
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2 minutes ago, Xennial said:
All I can envision when people talk about warp interdiction is gank squads sitting around cackling about nuking any ship that warps in. Whats that players alternative? Oh yeah slow boat hours of RL time to get to a planet to still be intercepted by the gank squad, or add hours to try and maneuver around to come at the planet from non traditional travel lanes.
There is no simple solution here thats going to be palatable to the general player base. I would much rather see warp removed entirely and max speed cap be removed. My guess is the server tech simply cannot handle ships moving that fast which is largely why warp works the way it does.
If you want warp to require risk by dropping outside of safe zones etc , then weapon ranges should be dramatically reduced to allow some chance for a ship to out maneuver another and escape a fight. ECM or other defensive measure need to be added to under such a scenario.
You don't solve the lack of PvP by simply turning unsafe space into gank town.
The whole point of the Warp mechanics idea I posted is to lower warp camping. Being able to cancel warp and change warp direction randomises destination warp exit points.
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20 minutes ago, EatMyNoodle said:
Interdiction with the mechanics that come with it should fix alot of these issues.
I really look forward to some kind of warp interdiction mechanics. Hopefully further down the road they will get incorporated ?
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With the current system players are able to mine and warp haul the rarest resources back to the safe zone triangle with absolutely no risk, just pure reward. This removes any need to tactically think of ways to haul these resources back, hire military escort services or scout their travel path.
This of course will end with the release of Atmos pvp / territory warfare but this may well be a long time away. So I have a proposal that should be light on development resources that would bring the risk aspect back in to the game while also giving ways to avoid pirate warp exit point camping.Warp cost change.
Currently the cost of warp is calculated from a formula that takes total warp distance multiplied by ship weight. You set the warp at A and are frozen until you reach B of which the warp cells used are removed from inventory on arrival and ship unlocks.
A better way of doing this is for the Warp cost to start at 1 cell, the cost then increases while you are in warp due to warp distance you have covered. If you reach the warp cell limit of your inventory you will drop out of warp wherever you are on the line. Additionally you can now choose to exit warp at any time of the journey.
This allows players to change direction and move off the common travel routes without the need to slowboat. Doing this will also change your target planet / moon warp exit point.Now finally until Atmos pvp / Territory warfare is introduced I recommend moving the warp exit points and warp interference radius of planets not in the safe zone triangle out in to the pvp area of space by around 5 - 10 SU. This will finally add some risk for the higher resource rewards from these planets.
- Derpzila, JohnnyTazer, W1zard and 6 others
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1 hour ago, Haunty said:
I don't think it should be easy or cheap to haul 10 L containers full of ore though. Just being able to carry 3-5x your ship's empty weight is pretty functional, which is easily done with "pretty" designs.
Some larger elements could be useful, like L wings/ailerons, maybe XL brakes. But high Gs are not necessary for hauling. I only use one L airbrake and 2 L space brake on my medium hauler and I carry up to 1.5 kt with it. No need to add more mass in extra elements.
I think PvP could use some speed tanking similar to Eve. NQ also mentioned the possibility of shields in the future. And BOO's flagship is pretty and functional in PvP.
Even on one of the Small BOO/Blitz frigates, you can play spot the adjusters. It’s just comes down to working with design limits.
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I cannot see an elements buff coming tbh. However it’s only a matter of time until advanced, rare and exotic variants of the other elements such as air brakes are released.
Also keep in mind the ability to warp skip past PVP for rare resources will be coming to an end soon. The sooner the better. So if you want your designs Rare resource ready, it maybe an idea to prepare for that.
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My alts are ready to boost my reputation ?
TBH I do hope a majority of the bot missions entice players to enter the no mans land of space for any decent quanta return.
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6 hours ago, Xennial said:
I feel that many can't see the forest through the trees as it relates to a wipe even perhaps NQ. When I say wipe I mean the only thing that can be retained is skill points and empty blueprints (magic blue prints negates a big point to a wipe in the first place). Also a wipe MUST come with 0 bots active in the market save to sell schematics.
The question of to wipe or not has 0 to do with 'fairness'. Anyone can objectively see groups will have advantage in any system related to the scale of their operation. Solo players who crying foul is just a rehash of the casual vs hardcore gamer arguments found in EVERY MMO. To be blunt any such concerns of it being unfair that 100 players can achieve or access more content then 1 or 10 can simply be dismissed.
What NQ need to considers is what they want DU to be. Do they want to spend the next 12 months having to balance everything against the norm of everyone flying around in invincible M -> L core 'luxury' ships , tricked out with T5 everything? Do they want there to be any place in the universe for XS or S ships? When my org thinks to build a hauler they think in terms of how many KT they want to haul as a standard metric. Whats the point of XS, S , or even M weapon systems or ships in a universe filled with L core battle boats?
I know I know, energy system will solve all that!! No they won't. It is common place for people to use M or L cores "just because I can". What happens when the population is threatened with the idea that "gasp" they might have to replace the elements after casually smashing into the ground because they never learned to fly because gold scrap was everywhere? They explode in outrage of course! Never did it occur to anyone that these over-engineered ships might actually someday cost something to maintain because it never dawned on them these are supposed to be capital ships.
Why NQ should wipe:
You want a wipe, then wipe for the right purpose, to overhaul the progression curve from SP sandbox to an actual MMO. The schematic prices in 0.23 were fine. If anything the non finished product schematic prices were to low, and the finished far to high. You want someone to specialize in screws, then you need to not setup the price structure that someone able to afford the end schematic would obviously be able to afford the sub parts. You could have also gone ahead and made the sub component part recopies not produce a gaggle at a time and have them take far longer to make. You want to break omni factories, then you have to break the efficiency found in setting one up in the first place. If I need 100 machines to produce the number of screws needed to make 1 large engine per day(extreme example), I'm going to seriously ask myself if it's not far more efficient and cost effective for me to buy the end assemblers to make 10 per day if I buy the screws from other players on the market. You do this by making the end assembly comparatively far cheaper to set up compared to actually supplying that industry time/cost wise with parts to keep it running. This spurs people to make the sub parts as a business and prevents even groups from being able to just outright out produce the little guy in end products.
To extend this the little guys could then actually afford to setup end assemblers and make their stuff for themselves affordably. The industrialists would all be competing against each other on sub component parts. The crafty businessman would be making deals for bulk orders on sub parts to establish a profitable line of end products. Then there would be more people making end products then 'industrialists' holding mega factories just to produce enough screws etc to keep the market demand supplied. The little guy who just wants to start in industry then has a place because even though his screw factory line might only pump out 10 screws per day, their value is maintained. He doesn't have to feel like he has to make Tier 5 military engines to even find a profit margin.
If you want a DU where it's not everyone running around in M /L ships then you adjust the difficulty of making and maintaining those ships appropriately. You naturally start this paradigm with Medium ship parts and up of all tiers. Make it so the average player has easy access to XS / S ship parts, containers to M for example. All Medium ship parts require uncommon sub components, all large advanced etc. I know people will flat panic at the idea of not being able to cart around 10Kt of ore effortlessly. With 0 bots the ore prices would stabilize such that even mining in small ships would be profitable. The orgs trying to stay 'self sustaining' would find themselves fighting an uphill battle against the participation of many more actors of all sizes in the market forcing them to ask is it really worth the expense to make our own end goods when we simply can't find some major market edge because we can't produce screws or whatnot any cheaper then mass offered on the market from the general populous can.
This entire concept ONLY works with 0 bots in the market. You need to frankly force people to sell their ore to other people. A game where people receive money every day for logging in NEVER has a cash flow problem. Quanta is a medium of exchange and it's value should be determined by the free market not some arbitrary idea that people have that you need XYZ 'faucets' for people to earn money. You can faze out the daily award as you add alternate ways for players to make the same given X effort per day. People have this bad habit of thinking the game has to provide $$ from heaven of the economy will fail. The 'value' of that money is not in it's generation but in how much the average player has and is thus willing to pay for things. That value can only be set by a free market where bots are not constantly perverting it's perceived value. .You only have to balance that daily cash against how fast you want schematics to be bought. You have the nanocrafter in the game to allow people to make XS ships anywhere without touching a market.
The only way DU will ever have a functional market is if people start to relate the time they spend mining to some value received. Why are goods sold at less then ore value now? Because you can mine at such a rate and haul so much so easily that no one perceives the value of that time spent. If most people were using the capacity of small ships , and medium or smaller containers to haul things around that time would have to weighed far more seriously because of the logistics of how long it would take to bring that 2Kt you just found worth of ore back to market 100t at a time and the time it will take for it to sell to other players given current demand / price.
Shift your thinking NQ from SP sandbox to MMO. L core ships should NOT be the norm. Even M ships should be purpose built major investments. If you do not shift your thinking on this I fear DU will forever be plagued by having to balance against everyone always having everything and XS/S even M ship parts being utterly worthless.
I’m sorry but I’m going to have to disagree with everything you suggested. My stance on this whole subject is very straight forward. Wipe and Lock outs are game killing. NQ did not listen at first and look at the backlash 0.23 caused.
Want a market? Make it so everyone can make the basics but if you want to be able to make better exotic space engines than the other guys selling on the markets then that’s where the grind and work comes in. Many many system ideas to make craft quality happen. Only thing I would agree to have removed from the game to accommodate this is put down talents.
Edit: While on the subject of wipes, lock outs and 0.23 my message to NQ is this. “Only fools make the same mistake twice”
- Arctic_fox, IvanGrozniy and Demlock
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Anyone asking for a wipe is more naive than NQ deciding to deploy 0.23 what was effectively an Indy wipe.
What is the problem with DU? Most people are bored of doing the same old thing to progress, dig holes and mine ores. So the idea here is to wipe? What would that accomplish? Oh wait.. more reason to dig holes and mine ores. That will keep people interested in playing the game I’m sure.
People have put in too much time in building their foundations with the promise from NQ not to wipe unless there is no other option, e.g Game killing bug that cannot be recovered without a wipe.
Dredger Mining Efficiency Skill Nerfed?
in General Discussions
Posted
I believe you are correct, I’m not sure however if this is a bug or designed math.